Comiclink...Truth and Fiction

[4GEMWORKS]

...

 

I sold a number of duplicated on eBay over the past year, prior to making this final batch sale. I consistently got under GPA pricing on most of the books, despite incrediibly good feedback ratings. Additioanlly once you factor in the paypal fees, listing and final value fees, EBay gets pretty close to 6-7%. ...

 

 

Rilly? Ebay's cut feels a lot bigger than that! Seems closer to 20% when I sell stuff on ebay, though I haven't done the math.

 

I was being conservative to give eBay the benefit of the doubt. In larger sales I think they are less than 10%, but for smaller sales, the rates have been escalated to a pretty challenging number. In the face of anything materially higher. CL would look even better.

 

The catch is, you better be selling graded books...

[4GEMWORKS]

I was copied on an e-mail to George asking him to accept the prices on the books. Given the high quality of the run, if George refuses to accept them, that will be a loss to the community that follows GPA. While it may be selective in the sense that it is only about 200 books, it is significant in that it contains many high grade books that don't always trade very often. I have no control over it past what I have requested.

[Timmay]

...

 

I sold a number of duplicated on eBay over the past year, prior to making this final batch sale. I consistently got under GPA pricing on most of the books, despite incrediibly good feedback ratings. Additioanlly once you factor in the paypal fees, listing and final value fees, EBay gets pretty close to 6-7%. ...

 

 

Rilly? Ebay's cut feels a lot bigger than that! Seems closer to 20% when I sell stuff on ebay, though I haven't done the math.

 

I was being conservative to give eBay the benefit of the doubt. In larger sales I think they are less than 10%, but for smaller sales, the rates have been escalated to a pretty challenging number. In the face of anything materially higher. CL would look even better.

 

The catch is, you better be selling graded books...

 

10% on a $100 plus book is a minimum on ebay, considering listing, final value, and paypal fees.

 

The problem (for ebay) is you can get a higher sales price on CL. Much higher.

[4GEMWORKS]

I can tell you that sellers are NOT allowed to bid on their own books. But I have talked to the Comiclink guys about it and they say it is an absolute no-no.

 

No one can ever eliminate all shill bidding, it is simply not possible with the ease of getting new e-mail addresses and such. Using a wife's account is probably not going to pass though, nor would using a neighbor's. Josh is going to want to get paid either way. And I am pretty sure that he is smart enough to figure out that is someone who lives on your block, or in your house or even in your same zipcode and is only bidding on your books, it probably is something shady. He is no dummy, and you are taking money directly out of his pocket by doing this.

 

Lets put it this way........... What sense does it make for a seller to bid on his own item, and lose the 10 % commission you give to Josh, and have to pay for the book again. It is a certain way to lose money. Say someone submits a $1000.00 book to Josh that he paid 700.00 for. As the auction nears the end, the book is only at 710.00, so the seller wants to "bump" it slightly. So he shills a bid of 800.00. No one else bids, so now you not only paid 700.00 for the book the first time and paid to ship it to Josh (700 + 15 = $715.00), now you have paid $800.00 for it a second time plus shipping (814.00 + original 715.00 = 1529.00). Now you will get some of that money back from Josh (800 - 80.00 = 720.00). 1529 - 720.00 = 809.00. And you have to wait 30 days to get your money.

 

When all is said and done, you now have 809.00 in a book that no one else thinks is worth even 800.00. It just doesn't make sense.

 

This is a basic way of looking at it, and does not reflect that the shill bidder probably isn't a dummy either.

 

1) I live in Philly. Friend lives in NYC. Call him up, alert him to the books that you have for sale.

 

2) Watch books in the EARLY stages of bidding, so you don't get stuck with it at the end, by bidding up the prices.

 

3) Watch to see if your shill bid is immediately outbid or outbid within a few hours. If done during the early stages you probably have a good chance that even if you are the "current" winning bidder, you will be outbid in the end.

 

4) Have a kill level. When it hits $1500, no longer shill. Everything else is gravy.

 

5) Shill selectively, not on all your books, just your big ticket items.

 

6) Shill creates a frenzy to legit collectors that they may have to get in early and often to win their book that they want.

 

The scenario you are presenting Dale really isn't the way anyone with half a brain would shill bid. Even if you get stuck 1 out of 25 or 30 times, and that's the real ratio if you do it smartly to me, the reward far outweighs the risk. And there's not a darn thing Josh or anyone else can do to police it really.

 

 

Brian, I believe that I mentioned that there is nothing Josh can do about it, and what he can do about it, he is doing. One thing you fail to respond to, what happens that 1 in 25 times to the seller who gets caught doing it. Do you think Josh is just overlooking that and allowing him to do it again? I don't.

 

 

 

Another important note......I personally would think if you are bidding 1500.00 on a 1000.00 book, you are going to get stuck ALOT more than 1 in 25 times.

 

I don't feel that this is anywhere near the problem that you are indicating in the above post.

 

Kind of reminds me of the Arod situation where 1 case is overshadowing the 1500 players who will play in baseball this year. Sure there are a few people who may be staying ahead of the curve and NOT getting caught, but most are not doing anything wrong, but to hear it from the overly cynical media, you would think it was a majority of players.

 

 

You can take my word or not, but I am not the slightest bit interested in interferring with the natural process of bidding. This run was valued at half of it's final price days and maybe hours before the conclusion. The last minute bidding is where the real results are derived.

 

If I had no impact by either shilling or bidding, how does this support the argument that shill bidding drives up prices. They go up all by themselves due to free market sources. I think people see prices higher than they expect and attribute it to shill bidding. I think that is a misplaced concern.

[4GEMWORKS]

Josh just reported those sales via email. He knows through conversation that reporting only selected sales is not really an option for us. Hopefully he would be interested to report all sales soon.

 

 

 

George-

 

I've been a subscriber from the start and we've known each other for a long time. I'd be surprised to hear that you would not accept this complete run of books to post on GPA, with Josh's specific allowance. I hope ypu'll reconsider. The journey of a thousand miles starts with asingle step...maybe more people will ask for reports to GPA if they know it will make a difference. By not posting these sales, people will make a correct assumption that it's not even worth trying.

[gpanalysis]

I'd already accepted (see earlier posts). Problem is Josh wont provide the auction number for these - maybe next time anyone else wanting to do the same can ask him to provide that information also. Not the end of the world; we were able to match up the titles/prices with the online auction data.

 

P.S. known each other long time? PM me

[4GEMWORKS]

Now that the January auction is well behind us I wanted to comment on my experience past and present. Comiclink gets a lot of praise, but they also get a number of unfair digs.

 

I sold my ASM collection through ComicLink, previously designated as the 5th highest rated collection on the Collectors Society site.

 

Prior to the sale, I went through the entire 200 or so comics and evaluated what I thought the collection would be worth. The number I came up with was about $216,000. A lot of these books don't sell often and the numbers were the best I could derive.

 

The final sale price totalled close to $240,000, a premium of over 33k. That was nearly a 15% premium to the estimated value and more than paid for the 10% that went to Josh.

 

Sorry, but being a professor by profession, I feel compelled to correct your math. If the final sale prices totalled $240,000, this was not 33K but rather 24K over your expected value. With 10% of sales going to Josh, the money you realized from the sale was ~216K, precisely your estimated value, and not above it.

 

Congrats on an excellent sale.

 

I have been circling this , trying to figure out how I miscalculated. It turns out that in the expected number of 216, I added the expected value of my AF 15 (6.0) which I did not sell. Therefore, the actual anticipated number should have been closer to $206,000. Thanks for your attention to this important detail.

 

I knew the 33k number was right because I added the value up for each book sold.

[4GEMWORKS]

I'm just curious, as I'm sure many others are, care to say why you sold them all? You had some bee-oot-te-ful books!

 

I deal with the stock market for a living and have a house like many of you, I'm sure. In the last year it is estimated that 30% or more of American's wealth has vanished. I think both markets have even further to go on the downside. I think unemployment is going to be a real problem. To put it simply, I think "a hard rain is comin'".

 

I bought a lot of these comics with borrowed money. As part of my plan of prudence, I decided to pay off just about every dime of debt I have with the exception of one car and our mortgage.

 

I hated to do it, but since it was bought with borrowed money, I thought it was the correct decision to make the move. I realized the dream of a lifetime with this collection. But I completed the process and the " thrill of the chase" had waned.

 

As far as timing, since I am no longer doing a lot of buying I concluded that this may soon spread to ther buyers. Therefore, while comics continue to sell near record prices, I thought it as good a time as any to sell.

 

I kept my AF 15 (6.0) as that was the only book I had actually meant to buy, over 10 years ago. I paid 2k for it, ungraded of course. I also kept the 13, 28,44 and 63 as these were some of my favorite books and almost impossible to find anywhere, anytime in these grades, especially at the kinds of prices I paid.

 

Thanks for all the kind words-

 

 

[500Club]

I'm just curious, as I'm sure many others are, care to say why you sold them all? You had some bee-oot-te-ful books!

 

I deal with the stock market for a living and have a house like many of you, I'm sure. In the last year it is estimated that 30% or more of American's wealth has vanished. I think both markets have even further to go on the downside. I think unemployment is going to be a real problem. To put it simply, I think "a hard rain is comin'".

 

I bought a lot of these comics with borrowed money. As part of my plan of prudence, I decided to pay off just about every dime of debt I have with the exception of one car and our mortgage.

 

I hated to do it, but since it was bought with borrowed money, I thought it was the correct decision to make the move. I realized the dream of a lifetime with this collection. But I completed the process and the " thrill of the chase" had waned.

 

As far as timing, since I am no longer doing a lot of buying I concluded that this may soon spread to ther buyers. Therefore, while comics continue to sell near record prices, I thought it as good a time as any to sell.

 

I kept my AF 15 (6.0) as that was the only book I had actually meant to buy, over 10 years ago. I paid 2k for it, ungraded of course. I also kept the 13, 28,44 and 63 as these were some of my favorite books and almost impossible to find anywhere, anytime in these grades, especially at the kinds of prices I paid.

 

Thanks for all the kind words-

 

 

Always sad to see a long time collector bail out.... but your rationale is very sound. I think the bottom of the end of the cycle of decreasing revenues, expenditures and layoffs is yet to be reached.

 

 

[Claudio]

I'm just curious, as I'm sure many others are, care to say why you sold them all? You had some bee-oot-te-ful books!

 

I deal with the stock market for a living and have a house like many of you, I'm sure. In the last year it is estimated that 30% or more of American's wealth has vanished. I think both markets have even further to go on the downside. I think unemployment is going to be a real problem. To put it simply, I think "a hard rain is comin'".

 

I bought a lot of these comics with borrowed money. As part of my plan of prudence, I decided to pay off just about every dime of debt I have with the exception of one car and our mortgage.

 

I hated to do it, but since it was bought with borrowed money, I thought it was the correct decision to make the move. I realized the dream of a lifetime with this collection. But I completed the process and the " thrill of the chase" had waned.

 

As far as timing, since I am no longer doing a lot of buying I concluded that this may soon spread to ther buyers. Therefore, while comics continue to sell near record prices, I thought it as good a time as any to sell.

 

I kept my AF 15 (6.0) as that was the only book I had actually meant to buy, over 10 years ago. I paid 2k for it, ungraded of course. I also kept the 13, 28,44 and 63 as these were some of my favorite books and almost impossible to find anywhere, anytime in these grades, especially at the kinds of prices I paid.

 

Thanks for all the kind words-

 

What!? Someone actually PAYING their debt!? Amazing!

 

But seriously... Good for you. There are a lot of things more important than comics.

[Nostalgic Attic]

Wouldn't Josh reporting his sales to GPA actually HELP the hobby and his business from a monetary standpoint?

If GPA prices realized for some of these books in his auctions were subbed, wouldn't it be an overall even higher boost for the prices that some of these books are attaining?

Is there a particular reason why CL doesn't report GPA? Would it hurt their sales or their business model?

 

My theory is that GPA actually suppresses prices in some cases because people tend to bid at or near the previously recorded sales data. By not reporting to GPA, Josh is returning to the pre GPA 'wild west' price escalations of CGC books. In short, bidders can bid a bit higher without fear that being the second highest bidder will result in a price escalation being recorded by GPA of a book they really want.

[swapto]

Now that the January auction is well behind us I wanted to comment on my experience past and present. Comiclink gets a lot of praise, but they also get a number of unfair digs.

 

I sold my ASM collection through ComicLink, previously designated as the 5th highest rated collection on the Collectors Society site.

 

Prior to the sale, I went through the entire 200 or so comics and evaluated what I thought the collection would be worth. The number I came up with was about $216,000. A lot of these books don't sell often and the numbers were the best I could derive.

 

The final sale price totalled close to $240,000, a premium of over 33k. That was nearly a 15% premium to the estimated value and more than paid for the 10% that went to Josh.

 

How this happens or why, I cannot say for sure. In compiling this collection I quite often overpaid what I knew the fair value of a book was because I knew the odds of it coming up again were remote. I can only assume that this is what happens at some of the Comiclink auctions. Comiclink seems to have cultivated an audience for high grade stuff that simply cannot be found very often anywhere else.

 

Let me also respond to a few thoughts I have heard expressed previously:

 

1) The bids are bogus.

 

Over the years I have sold a large number of items through ComicLink as well as been a buyer. On the sell side, I have received every dime of money that I had expected at the agreed upon time. Josh has even renegotiated terms with me when I realized there was a problem in timing. On the buy side I have had at least a two dozen experiences where I won or lost a book by less than a dollar.

 

Heritage and virtually every auction site except for eBay keeps bids private. Even eBay has gone to an identity protection system to keep bidder identities secret except for the winner.

 

Fine art and many other high price collectibles have been run in a confidential manner for years. To assert that ComicLink should identify bidders so that you are satisfied shilling is not occuring is simply naive.

 

If ComicLink were ripping people off, do you really think they would be operating at their current level of business? I must admit I wish I knew more about their financial status, but that is not a right I have. I have had my comics fully insured while on their premises as a matter of good business practice.

 

2) CL has "sold out" by going to an auction format.

 

I think this is 180 degees backwards thinking. While listing at a fixed price relieves anxiety, it does not provide the best market price. In looking back at my collection, I would say that my experience has been that books I paid fixed prices for were often my "worst" deals. I am now far more willing to pay a higher price whenI know I am bidding a gainst a legitimate competitor. The net resul;t is that I actually end up paying a lower price more often than I would expect. I have also ended up paying more than I expect, but that's OK too.

 

The basic problem that I believe most comic collectors have is an inability to sell a comic for less than what they paid for it. Therefore no format that results in a lower price is a "fair" price. Therefore they list items at unrealistic prices and wonder, I suppose, why it never sells.

 

Many of my ASM auctions had 30 or more bids. This is more action than almost any book I have listed on eBay. When you have this type of participation in an "auction format", proper price discovery is the usual conclusion.

 

3) Is the 10% fee competitive?

 

As norted above, I did the analysis and the only factor that explains my higher selling prices is the marketing of the event by ComicLink.

 

I sold a number of duplicated on eBay over the past year, prior to making this final batch sale. I consistently got under GPA pricing on most of the books, despite incrediibly good feedback ratings. Additioanlly once you factor in the paypal fees, listing and final value fees, EBay gets pretty close to 6-7%.

 

When you throw in the time to scan and list, the extra three to four percent differential becomes pretty meaningless, assuming sales prices are even. But my books sold for almost 15% more. My exprience leads me to believe that the 10% at ComicLink is a real bargain.

 

Heritage reports to GPA on a regular basis, their results are certainly no better except that they want at least twice as much in fees/commissions when all is said and done. I love to buy books through Heritage, but after this experience I doubt I would ever sell via Heritage.

 

4) ComicLink does not report sales to GPA, reducing transparancy.

 

Personally I believe GPA is a critical tool for evaluating relative levels that I might be willing to bid. As part of my deal with Josh, I asked him to report all my sales to GPA. He agreed. Maybe more people on the sell side need to ask?

 

In conclusion I can only say that Josh seems to have been far ahead of the crowd either by luck or incredible insight or both. Places like Pedigree now try and copy what Josh has been doing for a while. I'd guess a lot of criticism is from people wishing they had thought of this concept before Josh. Really, would you rather be shlepping boxes of comics to a new convention every other week of letting a computer do most of your work for you in a stable office environment? The biggest job CL has these days seems to be the labor involved in marketing and shipping books. He now has at least 3-4 emmployees, all of whom seem quite competent.

 

It's all praise from me, a very satisfied customer-

 

 

 

Great Post!

 

Comiclink are great. Josh is a true gentleman.

[Nostalgic Attic]

 

........ how does this support the argument that shill bidding drives up prices. They go up all by themselves due to free market sources. I think people see prices higher than they expect and attribute it to shill bidding. I think that is a misplaced concern.

 

(thumbs u What sense does it make for someone to shill their book to some of the astronomical multiples of GPA we've seen. At any point in the shill process, once it is near and above the previous high, they could get stuck with it. Also, I don't recall that Clink posts the number of bidders or bids, so there is no way shilling can generate a false bidding 'frenzy'. I just don't see shilling as being rampant on Clink.