PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Bio-Rupp]

You would definatly know the "tone" sir. You perfected it.

 

Snotty and self righteous? Really? No I'm not that guy sir.

 

I kind of thought I was the guy who had an average 6000 views in each of the 6 big sales I've put on. With a lot of happy people who take the time to enjoy them. I'm the guy that bust his arse to have a great time... and help the people who stop by, to have some fun while spending their hard earned cash.

 

One thing you forgot about comic books sir... they and everything about them are supposed to be fun.

 

I don't think you can find anyone else who particpates in my threads thinking I'm snotty and self righteous.

 

Hmmm.... I wonder how many fun loving people stopped by the "House of Green" for your last sale?

 

I appreciate your pity sir... matter o' fact I love it. I definatly know the guy who bought those books right out from under you... pitys you.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Bio-Rupp

[PovertyRow]

Guys, do you think you could take this to the Probation Discussions thread so we can continue working out the Probation List Rules without interruption?

 

[Bio-Rupp]

Aww we love to hate each other...

 

Green just feels that by bringing it up, it will make him 51% righter.

 

Again Green, victory of the poll... is yours. Enjoy sitting on top of the poll.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Bio-Rupp

[thirdgreenham]

 

Brad.

 

ALWAYS HAVE THE CASH WITH YOU.

 

Keep it locked in the glove box of the car, if that helps.

 

Absolutely. (thumbs u

 

Andy

[DarkKnightReturns]

I love this thread.

[Green]

Green, what if I sent you a pile of DC comics for free - would that help ease the situation?

 

I hate to see you two go at each other like this.

 

Any DCs would only irritate matters. That goes double for romance.

[Bio-Rupp]

Green, what if I sent you a pile of DC comics for free - would that help ease the situation?

 

I hate to see you two go at each other like this.

 

Any DCs would only irritate matters. That goes double for romance.

 

A good DC-'in might do you some good Green.

[comix4fun]

You really think someone like Cap Freak, who is STILL a stupid kid, should be on this HOS his ENTIRE LIFE? That 10 or 20 years from now, he couldn't even POTENTIALLY have grown up and cleaned up his act?

 

Really...?

 

What a depressing, unforgiving world you live in.

 

No depressing world here - and I can be very forgiving. But I also realize when someone keeps showing the same poor character flaws there is a very strong potential for that activity to get worse - not better.

 

And after all he did, and folks still kept forgiving him - including Divad who tried to pull him off the probation list - he then goes and screws over Steve Borock and his business by tampering with his business cell phone message.

 

So it is a world of reality. Sorry to hit you with a dose of it.

 

Pay very close attention to the words I am about to type, Bosco, because they are incredibly important and bear a TREMENDOUS amount of weight to this situation:

 

CAP FREAK IS A KID.

 

He's, what, 19 now?

 

Are you even aware that people do not finish developing (man, I sound like a wacky liberal) until their mid 20's?

 

Cap Freak, like all kids, got away with what he got away with because people trusted him with more than he was capable of handling (obviously!)

 

Stupid kids deserve the right to grow up.

 

If he was 30, I would agree with you. He is not. He was a kid.

 

Should he be given a VERY short leash? Oh, you betcha. Should he be made to provide restitution to everyone he wronged, to THEIR satisfaction? Oh, you betcha. Should he be trusted with ANYTHING until he has demonstrated consistently, over a VERY long period of time, that he's capable of that trust? Hell no!

 

Does he deserve to be on the HOS when he's 40?

 

Please.

 

Interesting perspective. I think you are assuming the HOS is a punishment in and of itself. I don't know if that's accurate.

 

Really, the HOS is not a punishment, it's a notification to all members of the forum of past transgressions that have be perpetrated to such a degree and to such an extent that they have gone beyond a single failed deal or an honest misunderstanding.

 

People who commit acts of fraud, theft, or other similar actions involving moral turpitude have given everyone with the misfortune of crossing paths with them a taste of the bad side of human nature. There's nothing wrong with helping people avoid that kind of person and that kind of experience with honest, unbiased information.

 

In the real world, people who do things like this have it recorded permanently whether it be on a school transcript, or on a parole record. They go about their day to day lives but everyone who would deal with them in situations where morality may come into play, such as business dealings, has the opportunity to be informed of what came before.

 

You don't wash away the past like it didn't happen when it comes to HOS status. What they did still happened. People who deal with them still deserve to know.

 

I can see a notation on the record that they made amends for the transgression that got them on the list to begin with, but given the weight the actions of the HOS members carry, I can't see pretending that they NEVER happened.

 

 

PS...from my experience, people start acting like Knobs at about age 8, and you can predict where their personality is going from there with alarming accuracy. A Old Knob starts out as a Young Knob, pretty much every time.

[mikenyc]

When I was 9, I started a secret club of assassins. I was the master of Chinese stars, unfortunately after hours of training I was unable to put my newly minted skills to work.

 

Does it ever feel that this thread is getting dangerously close?

 

I got a great idea, lighten the fudge up and have some fun. This isn't the Goethe book club, its a couple of words with lots of pretty pictures.

 

If someone is on the PL they will continue to survive. If someone is in the HOS their employers won't just give the promotion to Johnson instead. If a young'un stops posting here, great he could use some sunlight on his pudgy azz. The world will still turn, the birds will still chirp, and I can still destroy you with my stars!

 

 

I <3 Rupp

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

People say something, for example, that someone doesn't like and 5 years, 10 years, 20 years down the line, it's stil thrown back in their face.

 

That's NOT healthy, and it's NOT something that should be encouraged.

 

Yeah, I saw an example of this a few pages back, some tool was complaining about a transaction he had in 2009.

 

That's right...about someone who was unrepentant and unwilling to do anything to resolve it...

 

WORLD of difference.

[DWL]

I think it is fair for ther accuser to state their requirements for satisfaction should things get beyond the conditions of the original transaction. I think it is fair for there to be a discussion on the validity of the conditions. (how often have we seen things like "yeah, they finally came through but I am ticked and do not want to remove them" kind of posts?

 

I am all for visibility in the conditions, as it promotes accountability and compliance on both ends without terms meandering over time. Further, I have no problem at all with their being discussion on the validity of such terms. However, I would limit my acceptance to discussion only. Ultimately, as long as the decision regarding terms resides with the offended party I am on-board. However, if the board discussion on the validity of terms morphs into the board itself (or several vocal members in the discussion) attempting to usurp the offended party and dictate terms (as if some sort of forced mediation) I am not so much on-board anymore

 

 

Snake Eyes (may I call you Snake? Eyes? SE?)

 

Anyway, the thing is we already have conditions setup that a person may not agree with.

 

For example, one of the terms is a 30 day wait. What if the offended party feels that 30 days is too long and feels it is their right, as the offended one, to lay the issue out in a week's time? Do we allow it because the offended has the right to make final decisions?

 

The biggest hurdle we have in this whole discussion is indeed this "what comprises satisfaction on the part of the offended". It is actually the only real hurdle left. The rest is all getting the right language down for clarity. Then a final vote on the new rule set.

 

I have no personal stake in it. There are arguments on both sides because it IS a very grey area and it is actually impossible to foresee all scenarios and account for them in a set of rules. (If anything, this process is making me reluctantly respect why laws and legal documents are so filled with complexity and length).

 

I think if it is demonstrated factually that unavoidable extra expenses were incurred then that should be taken as part of fulfilling the original obligation. And in that case, once those expenses are met then the name comes off automatically.

 

But what about avoidable extra expenses? Can someone go too far in trying to get a deal completed? Even intentionally spending extra money to get the deal completed, feeling they can then recap the unecessary extra expenses? I think at that point board intervention and consensus is needed.

 

I wish more folks would chime in on the whole extended culpability thing.

 

First off, excellent contributions on the part of everyone who has helped craft a more refined and workable set of guidelines. Thank you everyone for their efforts!

 

With respect to the last point about extended culpability, could someone please provide an example of what might constitute "extra expenses"?

 

What, for example, might be deemed to be a reasonable or unreasonable expense. And who would decide what is and what is not an acceptable extra expense?

 

 

Well, an unreasonable expense would be a buyer who does not carry through with paying. After the case is brought up, the buyer admits thir mistake, carelessness whatever. The seller then insists on shipping via Express Mail at $35 rather than Priority at $10 because they claim they feel more secure that way with this questionable buyer. Or a seller who has the address and just decides to spend $100 driving expenses to talk to the buyer unannounced "face to face" when they could have picked up the phone or used PM or email.

 

A "reasonable expense" - well that has to be determined. Definitely need input on that.

 

Thank you, that is actually very helpful.

 

I was having trouble getting my head around how or why any additional expenses may arise but the potential for a more expensive postage option in the name of having more confidence or comfort is actually a very real and possible example. And, for the sake of argument, one could see how a board member might suggest this is actually a reasonable extra expense.

 

The other example would, in my opinion, clearly be characterized as an unreasonable "extra expense" unless both parties agreed that they would meet face to face.

 

I would hope determining what is "reasonable" is relatively straightforward but hey, we shall see. Any other thoughts or comments before we get back to our regularly scheduled bickering amongst board members

[seanfingh]

I disagree with you rarely, Chris, but I disagree here. Putting an indelible mark on the permanent record of a child is a super serious thing. Saying a child is irredeemable is a serious thing. Being on the HOS on this Board is not a serious thing. But the sentiment that a bad child will become a bad adult is a serious thing. I respect your experience and your opinion, but I do not agree with it. Kids mess up, sometimes badly. But they should always be able to redeem themselves.

 

I wonder if some of the parents on here would sing a different tune if it were their children being written off summarily.

Edited July 6, 2011 by seanfingh

[RockMyAmadeus]

I disagree with you rarely, Chris, but I disagree here. Putting an indelible mark on the permanent record of a child is a super serious thing. Saying a child is irredeemable is a serious thing. Being on the HOS on this Board is not a serious thing. But the sentiment that a bad child will become a bad adult is a serious thing. I respect your experience and your opinion, but I do not agree with it. Kids mess up, sometimes badly. But they should always be able to redeem themselves.

 

I wonder if some of the parents on here would sing a different tune if it were their children being written off summarily.

 

I'll take it.

[comix4fun]

I disagree with you rarely, Chris, but I disagree here. Putting an indelible mark on the permanent record of a child is a super serious thing. Saying a child is irredeemable is a serious thing. Being on the HOS on this Board is not a serious thing. But the sentiment that a bad child will become a bad adult is a serious thing. I respect your experience and your opinion, but I do not agree with it. Kids mess up, sometimes badly. But they should always be able to redeem themselves.

 

I wonder if some of the parents on here would sing a different tune if it were their children being written off summarily.

 

 

I didn't say he couldn't redeem himself. What I said was everyone who deals with him should be allowed to know who they are dealing with, in total, when and if he ever decides to attempt a return.

 

That's a part of earning your way back into society. It's not washing away everything that came before to the ignorance of potential parties dealing with them, it's overcoming what they have done in the full light of day.

 

By the way....He wasn't 9, he was 17 and I think 18 towards the end with the statements and actions taken here. We have to try and not picture him watching Saturday morning cartoons and playing with jacks.

 

I've been in court for 12 year-olds who've been prosecuted as adults. The debate is a strong one in those cases, The Freak isn't some preteen who hasn't had a chance. He was old enough to drive, and vote, and get drafted and he made his choices, horrendous ones, over and over again with some of the most responsible adults he could hope to have as mentors trying to keep him from making those same decisions.

 

Scum bag, con men, losers aren't built in a day. They are built brick by brick. Sometimes it's bad or absent parenting. Sometimes it's bad influences. Sometimes it's people who enable them to continue without consequences for their actions. Whatever way it happens, it happens over time. There are many turns in the road but the right way is almost always there.

 

Everyone's personality begins somewhere. People don't wake up on their 30th birthday and say "I'm gonna start ripping people off and fcuk over my close friends and try to destroy their business". The sum total of a person's experience develops the kind of adult they are. So YEAH, someone who's bad as a child may very well become a bad adult, I'd be foolish to ignore the warning signs. That doesn't mean every teenage anus becomes a raging adult rectum, but if you trace that hemorrhoid back to the beginning you will see a warning sign or three along the way.

 

Lord knows I hope he finds the way, the right path, but I think guys like him are just about done using people I care about as test subjects in his morality play.

 

For Connor, if he truly ever wanted to make a mature, sincere and concerted effort to redeem himself, no one is stopping him. However his past, like all of ours, is another part of who he is and who we are and we can no easier sever our present from our past than we could sever our hearts from our minds. He's going to have to deal with it, live with it, and build himself above it.

 

 

[thirdgreenham]

RMA, I would say that you shouldn't be able to add Dekuek to the PL as that was an eBay transaction. Still, interesting story and sad to read. Perhaps that book will still arrive some day.

[mikenyc]

I disagree with you rarely, Chris, but I disagree here. Putting an indelible mark on the permanent record of a child is a super serious thing. Saying a child is irredeemable is a serious thing. Being on the HOS on this Board is not a serious thing. But the sentiment that a bad child will become a bad adult is a serious thing. I respect your experience and your opinion, but I do not agree with it. Kids mess up, sometimes badly. But they should always be able to redeem themselves.

 

I wonder if some of the parents on here would sing a different tune if it were their children being written off summarily.

 

 

I didn't say he couldn't redeem himself. What I said was everyone who deals with him should be allowed to know who they are dealing with, in total, when and if he ever decides to attempt a return.

 

That's a part of earning your way back into society. It's not washing away everything that came before to the ignorance of potential parties dealing with them, it's overcoming what they have done in the full light of day.

 

By the way....He wasn't 9, he was 17 and I think 18 towards the end with the statements and actions taken here. We have to try and not picture him watching Saturday morning cartoons and playing with jacks.

 

I've been in court for 12 year-olds who've been prosecuted as adults. The debate is a strong one in those cases, The Freak isn't some preteen who hasn't had a chance. He was old enough to drive, and vote, and get drafted and he made his choices, horrendous ones, over and over again with some of the most responsible adults he could hope to have as mentors trying to keep him from making those same decisions.

 

Scum bag, con men, losers aren't built in a day. They are built brick by brick. Sometimes it's bad or absent parenting. Sometimes it's bad influences. Sometimes it's people who enable them to continue without consequences for their actions. Whatever way it happens, it happens over time. There are many turns in the road but the right way is almost always there.

 

Everyone's personality begins somewhere. People don't wake up on their 30th birthday and say "I'm gonna start ripping people off and fcuk over my close friends and try to destroy their business". The sum total of a person's experience develops the kind of adult they are. So YEAH, someone who's bad as a child may very well become a bad adult, I'd be foolish to ignore the warning signs. That doesn't mean every teenage anus becomes a raging adult rectum, but if you trace that hemorrhoid back to the beginning you will see a warning sign or three along the way.

 

Lord knows I hope he finds the way, the right path, but I think guys like him are just about done using people I care about as test subjects in his morality play.

 

For Connor, if he truly ever wanted to make a mature, sincere and concerted effort to redeem himself, no one is stopping him. However his past, like all of ours, is another part of who he is and who we are and we can no easier sever our present from our past than we could sever our hearts from our minds. He's going to have to deal with it, live with it, and build himself above it.

 

 

I like this sentiment.

 

Some accountability is nice. This notion in child rearring nowadays is that there is no wrong answer, everyone is equal, there should be no winners or losers in games, etc. It fosters a sense of entitlement with all these kids. Many of them will grow to be the losers that they foreshadow in their youth. I'm actually not a fan of this pay your debt and be forgiven. If you act like an azzhole more than once, chances are you are azzhole.

 

 

 

 

[october]

Why don't all parties just agree to revist this discussion when a HOS member returns to make a concerted and humble effort to rectify their past behavior?

 

I will commence with the breath-holdng now.

[mikenyc]

Why don't all parties just agree to revist this discussion when a HOS member returns to make a concerted and humble effort to rectify their past behavior?

 

I will commence with the breath-holdng now.

 

Well what you bicker about then?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Why don't all parties just agree to revist this discussion when a HOS member returns to make a concerted and humble effort to rectify their past behavior?

 

I will commence with the breath-holdng now.

 

Because the discussion is worthwhile, and has ramifications in life far beyond this message board.

 

 

[comix4fun]

Why don't all parties just agree to revist this discussion when a HOS member returns to make a concerted and humble effort to rectify their past behavior?

 

I will commence with the breath-holdng now.

 

 

I think that might have been my first comment on the subject. What feels like a year ago now. Why should we bend over backwards to allow someone forgiveness who has never shown even the slightest inkling or desire to do the right thing, make amends or even ask for a way back in?

 

So many folks actually deserve that kind of attention and deference.