PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[porcupine48]

[RockMyAmadeus]

I like this sentiment.

 

Some accountability is nice. This notion in child rearring nowadays is that there is no wrong answer, everyone is equal, there should be no winners or losers in games, etc. It fosters a sense of entitlement with all these kids. Many of them will grow to be the losers that they foreshadow in their youth. I'm actually not a fan of this pay your debt and be forgiven. If you act like an azzhole more than once, chances are you are azzhole.

 

 

 

 

No one, at any time, suggested, implied, or even hinted that forgiveness has anything whatsoever...in any conceivable way, by any possible measure...to do with anything you've just stated.

 

In fact...if you bother to actually comprehend what is written, you will notice that complete accountability and restitution is required before even a consideration of forgiveness would be given.

 

Forgiveness has absolutely nothing....let me repeat that....nothing...to do with concepts like "there is no wrong answer", "everyone is equal", "there should be no losers."

 

I sure hope you don't ever need forgiveness for anything in life.

 

I know it's difficult to comprehend but every post on these boards is not about you.

 

The pious soap box that you preach upon does not behoove you. (thumbs u From saving Paypal Personal to removing the Sword of Damacles hanging above the head of a troubled boy on the HOS, you have the uncanny ability of being obnoxious.

 

Before calling my comprehension skills into question, chiggity check yourself. Yes you made a post that took the conversation in a different direction but every comment made thereafter does not require a response from you. I was referring to the post that Comix made about placing some responsibility on a minor and making the completely logical connection that many, but not all, minors who act out in a criminal manner continue that behavior into adulthood.

 

My response, not to you, was that the behaviors instilled in children nowadays seems to foster a sense of entitlement that I believe adds to the occurrence of negative actions which are completely self fulfilling to the detriment of others.

 

I apologize for not quoting your comment and responding directly but I felt Comix did a superb job, which is why I was responding to his post.

 

 

Hostile, snide, and ultimately false commentary doesn't make your points any less invalid. You implied a line of commentary that simply did not exist. Since you're oblivious to the reality of the situation, I'll explain it to you more clearly: Comix4fun ALSO wasn't talking about your implication. His comment had to do with the predictability of bad behavior later in life. Neither he nor I said anything even remotely connected to the "coddling of children", as you did.

 

And, I know you don't want to deal with this fact, because it cripples your "argument", but Comix4fun was responding directly to me. THAT means that, even though you were responding to him, the comments YOU were responding to were predicated by MY comments, and since BOTH sets of comments had nothing to do with what you were suggesting, you still fail.

 

I know. Logic is hard. Just like math.

 

And a personal note to you: you try far too hard. You are desperate for people to like you on this board. That usually manifests in you making inappropriate "jokes" and comments at the wrong time, and being a self-righteous, aggressively snide tool to people you perceive on the board are "weak." Mark these words: if you do not clean up your act, you WILL end up a pariah.

 

Good luck with that.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I like this sentiment.

 

Some accountability is nice. This notion in child rearring nowadays is that there is no wrong answer, everyone is equal, there should be no winners or losers in games, etc. It fosters a sense of entitlement with all these kids. Many of them will grow to be the losers that they foreshadow in their youth. I'm actually not a fan of this pay your debt and be forgiven. If you act like an azzhole more than once, chances are you are azzhole.

 

 

 

 

No one, at any time, suggested, implied, or even hinted that forgiveness has anything whatsoever...in any conceivable way, by any possible measure...to do with anything you've just stated.

 

In fact...if you bother to actually comprehend what is written, you will notice that complete accountability and restitution is required before even a consideration of forgiveness would be given.

 

Forgiveness has absolutely nothing....let me repeat that....nothing...to do with concepts like "there is no wrong answer", "everyone is equal", "there should be no losers."

 

I sure hope you don't ever need forgiveness for anything in life.

 

I know it's difficult to comprehend but every post on these boards is not about you.

 

The pious soap box that you preach upon does not behoove you. (thumbs u From saving Paypal Personal to removing the Sword of Damacles hanging above the head of a troubled boy on the HOS, you have the uncanny ability of being obnoxious.

 

Before calling my comprehension skills into question, chiggity check yourself. Yes you made a post that took the conversation in a different direction but every comment made thereafter does not require a response from you. I was referring to the post that Comix made about placing some responsibility on a minor and making the completely logical connection that many, but not all, minors who act out in a criminal manor continue that behavior into adulthood.

 

My response, not to you, was that the behaviors instilled in children nowadays seems to foster a sense of entitlement that I believe adds to the occurrence of negative actions which are compleyely self fulfilling to the detriment of others.

 

I apologize for not quoting your comment and responding directly but I felt Comix did a superb job, which is why I was responding to his post.

 

 

My goodness Mike A serious post??? No mention of monkeys in cowboy costumes, mekrab, or inappropriate uses for Batman's utility belt. I stand in complete and utter

 

 

Seriously though, you make an excellent point above about the evolution/entrenchment of such behavioral patterns

 

A snide, intensely rude and hostile post is what you call "serious"...?

 

Really...?

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh...and a lot of good points here, sir.

 

 

If I point out that he didn't make ANY points aside from those that criticize and denigrate me, would I have accurately interpreted your implication...?

 

(thumbs u

[Bio-Rupp]

Oh...and a lot of good points here, sir.

 

 

If I point out that he didn't make ANY points aside from those that criticize and denigrate me, would I have accurately interpreted your implication...?

 

(thumbs u

 

Let me rephrase... " ...a lot of good points from everyone here. "

[RockMyAmadeus]

PS...from my experience, people start acting like Knobs at about age 8, and you can predict where their personality is going from there with alarming accuracy. A Old Knob starts out as a Young Knob, pretty much every time.

 

I agree with this 100% My point is that there are positive ways to move the young knob off the path to knobdom. They may take them and they may not. CapFreak did not.

 

I know your background and I know that you have seen more than your share of bad eggs, that no amount of work was going to make them good eggs. I have been fortunate to be a part of a couple different programs that have taken recidivist delinquents and helped them turn themselves around.

 

It doesn't always work, by any stretch of the imagination, but it does sometimes. I know that this discussion cropped up around CapFreak. To me, it is not about CapFreak, it is about all the other CapFreaks out there who may be painted with the broad brush that he (perhaps rightfully) has been painted.

 

It is one of my real hot buttons, and I appreciate the indulgence.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much my point as well.

 

As you noted, CapFreak was but the example at hand.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh...and a lot of good points here, sir.

 

 

If I point out that he didn't make ANY points aside from those that criticize and denigrate me, would I have accurately interpreted your implication...?

 

(thumbs u

 

Let me rephrase... " ...a lot of good points from everyone here. "

 

Fair enough.

[Bio-Rupp]

Oh...and a lot of good points here, sir.

 

 

If I point out that he didn't make ANY points aside from those that criticize and denigrate me, would I have accurately interpreted your implication...?

 

(thumbs u

 

Let me rephrase... " ...a lot of good points from everyone here. "

 

Fair enough.

 

Whew! ... barely dodged that speeding bullet & oncoming train

[comix4fun]

PS...from my experience, people start acting like Knobs at about age 8, and you can predict where their personality is going from there with alarming accuracy. A Old Knob starts out as a Young Knob, pretty much every time.

 

I agree with this 100% My point is that there are positive ways to move the young knob off the path to knobdom. They may take them and they may not. CapFreak did not.

 

I know your background and I know that you have seen more than your share of bad eggs, that no amount of work was going to make them good eggs. I have been fortunate to be a part of a couple different programs that have taken recidivist delinquents and helped them turn themselves around.

 

It doesn't always work, by any stretch of the imagination, but it does sometimes. I know that this discussion cropped up around CapFreak. To me, it is not about CapFreak, it is about all the other CapFreaks out there who may be painted with the broad brush that he (perhaps rightfully) has been painted.

 

It is one of my real hot buttons, and I appreciate the indulgence.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much my point as well.

 

As you noted, CapFreak was but the example at hand.

 

 

 

And I can respect that point. It carries significant weight. There's so much that can be observed from the way a child, adolescent or teen handles a test of morality or ethics. I am not saying that anyone is beyond redemption. It's quite the contrary. To me, those that seek redemption can attain it if they are sincere enough in the pursuit. That sincerity involves overcoming the past behavior, not washing it away immediately. However, many of the young offenders never reach the sincere point of desiring redemption rendering the potential for growth moot.

[RockMyAmadeus]

PS...from my experience, people start acting like Knobs at about age 8, and you can predict where their personality is going from there with alarming accuracy. A Old Knob starts out as a Young Knob, pretty much every time.

 

I agree with this 100% My point is that there are positive ways to move the young knob off the path to knobdom. They may take them and they may not. CapFreak did not.

 

I know your background and I know that you have seen more than your share of bad eggs, that no amount of work was going to make them good eggs. I have been fortunate to be a part of a couple different programs that have taken recidivist delinquents and helped them turn themselves around.

 

It doesn't always work, by any stretch of the imagination, but it does sometimes. I know that this discussion cropped up around CapFreak. To me, it is not about CapFreak, it is about all the other CapFreaks out there who may be painted with the broad brush that he (perhaps rightfully) has been painted.

 

It is one of my real hot buttons, and I appreciate the indulgence.

 

I definitely agree. I think that what separates most minors with criminal histories and the rest of us without, is they got caught. When I reflect back on all the stupid things I did when I was younger, many I'm not proud of, some not so legal, most dangerous, I thank God that I was one of the fortunate ones.

 

 

If you think that what "separates most minors with criminal histories and the rest of us...is they got caught", well, let's just say...the Fail is strong with you.

 

There are millions and millions of kids, all over the world, who manage to live through their entire childhoods, and even their entire lives, without committing a crime that would give them "a criminial history."

 

The actions of someone who cannot comprehend the consequences of said actions should not have to have the rest of their lives overshadowed by childhood mistakes. I believe that is why they seal juvenile offenses and eventually allow for them to be expunged, if certain criteria is met.

 

The caveat is those who believe that redemption is possible for all. Sometimes records can't be erased, sometimes the actions will follow you and you will wear those mistakes on your chest like a certain hussy! The broad brushstrokes are necessary in many cases and I'm glad they are used.

 

Redemption IS possible for all. The only way it's NOT possible is by unforgiving, heartless people like you. I know this may be a subtle (oops!) concept for you to grasp, but the possibility of redemption shouldn't lie with whether or not the condemned wishes to be redeemed. It should be an open door through which the condemned MAY be able to enter, should they wish. To slam that door shut, as you state, depending on what YOU think is and is not "forgivable" makes you judge, jury, and executioner. And, frankly, you're not qualified.

[RockMyAmadeus]

PS...from my experience, people start acting like Knobs at about age 8, and you can predict where their personality is going from there with alarming accuracy. A Old Knob starts out as a Young Knob, pretty much every time.

 

I agree with this 100% My point is that there are positive ways to move the young knob off the path to knobdom. They may take them and they may not. CapFreak did not.

 

I know your background and I know that you have seen more than your share of bad eggs, that no amount of work was going to make them good eggs. I have been fortunate to be a part of a couple different programs that have taken recidivist delinquents and helped them turn themselves around.

 

It doesn't always work, by any stretch of the imagination, but it does sometimes. I know that this discussion cropped up around CapFreak. To me, it is not about CapFreak, it is about all the other CapFreaks out there who may be painted with the broad brush that he (perhaps rightfully) has been painted.

 

It is one of my real hot buttons, and I appreciate the indulgence.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much my point as well.

 

As you noted, CapFreak was but the example at hand.

 

 

 

And I can respect that point. It carries significant weight. There's so much that can be observed from the way a child, adolescent or teen handles a test of morality or ethics. I am not saying that anyone is beyond redemption. It's quite the contrary. To me, those that seek redemption can attain it if they are sincere enough in the pursuit. That sincerity involves overcoming the past behavior, not washing it away immediately. However, many of the young offenders never reach the sincere point of desiring redemption rendering the potential for growth moot.

 

(Emphasis mine)

 

No one is suggesting this. Also quite the contrary. Those seeking redemption (at least temporally) SHOULD be willing to do whatever it takes to make redemption, especially for the petty acts we see described here.

 

We're not talking about murder, here, and yes, the HOS IS a punishment of sorts. It is public shame. You know the power of public shame. It most surely is a punishment, for anyone who has a sense of shame to begin with (and I guarantee at least a few on the list do have their senses of shame intact.)

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh...and a lot of good points here, sir.

 

 

If I point out that he didn't make ANY points aside from those that criticize and denigrate me, would I have accurately interpreted your implication...?

 

(thumbs u

 

Let me rephrase... " ...a lot of good points from everyone here. "

 

Fair enough.

 

Whew! ... barely dodged that speeding bullet & oncoming train

 

Oh please. I'm a harmless teddy bear...just asking for clarification.

[RockMyAmadeus]

By the way......

 

I believe there is at least one person (and no, I don't know who, just arguing stats) that is on the list not because they purposely decided to defraud people, but rather, out of frustration, just gave up and wrote the board off.

 

This would be due directly to the crushing weight of many people condemning them, constantly, from all sides.

 

Whereas, if someone applied persistent but gentle pressure, holding out hope and encouragement, at least one person so inclined would, instead, be willing to fix things to everyone's satisfaction.

 

Yes, I know the board isn't a replacement dad. I know that. Nor am I suggesting that it's likely that the above scenario even exists. And I know that such compassion is far above and beyond what could reasonably be expected of anyone.

 

But this board...man, it's hard to find another group of people who are so quick to condemn and criticize, and so slow to forgive and offer the chance for redemption. And when that scenario exists, a person who might otherwise be inclined to NOT take the money and run just gives up in frustration.

 

Whereas, hope is a powerful, powerful motivator.

 

Something to think about.

[Bosco685]

(Emphasis mine)

 

No one is suggesting this. Also quite the contrary. Those seeking redemption (at least temporally) SHOULD be willing to do whatever it takes to make redemption, especially for the petty acts we see described here.

 

We're not talking about murder, here, and yes, the HOS IS a punishment of sorts. It is public shame. You know the power of public shame. It most surely is a punishment, for anyone who has a sense of shame to begin with (and I guarantee at least a few on the list do have their senses of shame intact.)

 

This "not murder" comment keeps coming up a few times now. Is anyone confused this probation procedure is addressing comic book transactions? It's the level and extent of the offense that determines how a situation is handled, to include situations involving a $25,000 transaction. I wouldn't consider that amount as a petty situation.

 

To create an environment where people feel comfortable buying and selling, a method of identifying and communicating poorly handled transactions was created. And for those that conducted themselves in a negative way repeatedly or to the extreme, there is the HOS. Both lists are meant to set an example so the majority do not go down the wrong path.

 

If we keep downplaying the importance and intent of these lists, they start to lose their importance and impact.

 

Of course, some are going to disregard the list and go with their own route. Spidermanontilt doing a deal with Buc One - then claiming he never even knew about the probation/HOS list and Buc being on it - was quite interesting. But that was his call. And he learned a lesson from it when Buc delivered on his historice bad behavior yet once again.

 

If someone goes out of their way to the point the majority vote to add them to the HOS - and it is a majority decision - it would be a really rough road to come back from this and prove yourself as worthy to come off the HOS list. If someone goes out of their way to achieve this goal, I guess they deserve to be taken off. But like someone stated already, let's address this when such an amazing event occurs.

[RockMyAmadeus]

The law creates a serious and very clear dividing line between murder and theft.

 

That "$25,000 transaction" is misleading, as it never happened. It would be more correct to say a "$1,000 loss in a proposed transaction."

 

As noted before, it is petty AND grand theft. No one is downplaying anything.

 

I am glad, however, that you have moved to the possibility of redemption should such a (I agree) miraculous event occur.

[Bosco685]

That "$25,000 transaction" is misleading, as it never happened. It would be more correct to say a "$1,000 loss in a proposed transaction."

Whether it was $25,000 paid or $25,000 committed, it was a $25,000 transaction. Trying to dice that up just to make it less impactful is now just arguing to argue.

 

Now if we were in a court of law, and trying to determine what level of compensation should be awarded based on what was really paid versus promised, then I see the reason. We are talking about a dollar amount involved in a board transaction, and what payout the seller was expecting from the buyer.

 

There is no intent to mislead with mentioning $25,000 was involved.

[seanfingh]

If you think that what "separates most minors with criminal histories and the rest of us...is they got caught", well, let's just say...the Fail is strong with you.

 

I think about it like that all the time. If I had gotten caught doing some of the stuff I did, they may not have let me sit for the bar. Thank god I got my head on right. (Ostensibly).

[mikenyc]

Take a breath RMA ::

 

I'm at work, I'll see you when I get home. (thumbs u Although, I forgot how pointless, albiet entertaining, it is to argue with you.

 

I don't want to say anything offensive to you and lose the respect of a lot of members. ::

 

I was actually reading through some old threads and you know your stuff. Your problem is you're humorless and take yourself way to seriously. Lighten up my good dude. It makes everything much more enjoyable.

 

Also to everyone else reading please like me.

 

 

[PovertyRow]

As far as HOS, as was stated they are in by Majority Vote. Should an HOS member return, make amends and demonstrate a real change in their direction, I can see a majority vote getting them out. Does anyone object to that?

[Bosco685]

As far as HOS, as was stated they are in by Majority Vote. Should an HOS member return, make amends and demonstrate a real change in their direction, I can see a majority vote getting them out. Does anyone object to that?

 

Not at all. If the majority decide it is the right thing to do - and that would be quite the event to see happen - then it is the majority rule making it happen.