PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[sufunk]

How much was this sale for again???

[RockMyAmadeus]

Telling people they have a small group attempting to control their destiny, no matter how calmly you say it, is an attempt to achieve an emotional reaction. You do realize this, right? Politicians do this quite often to achieve voter reaction.

 

Really...? Where did I say there is "a small group attempting to control (people's)destiny"...? And even if I had said something like that, it would only achieve an emotional reaction from people controlled by their emotions. Those ruled by reason would recgnize that there are always people who attempt to exert control over others, in ways minute to grand, and always will be. This is a fact that most 5 year olds can tell you is true simply by observation.

 

You can't just make things up out of thin air, Bosco, and then attribute them to me. That's not how honest debate works.

 

But besides that, let's get back to what I think is one of your primary concerns.

 

"Prove your loyalty!" is a classic device of the demagogue, and one which need not be answered, much like "have you stopped beating your wife?"

 

No, that is the primary pupose of the PL/HOS, in that it is an attempt to help resolve troubled transactions with the assistance of the community. Working around that defeats the purpose.

 

Without any emotion, or any statement that then leads you to assuming I am making an official statement from the throne (another emotion-driven point on your part), what are the end-state changes you would recommend that would achieve an ideal solution to address troubled transactions?

 

 

This is indecipherable, so I'll just let you have the last word, as I know getting that makes you very happy. And who am I to deny anyone happiness...?

[RockMyAmadeus]

(and FAOD I agree that the wall of essays is not coming from you).

 

 

Really...?

 

This:

 

bla

 

...is not a wall of text...?

 

Really...?

 

Come on.

 

Awesomely patronising, cheers. Yes, that is a wall of text. I didn't go through every post the two/three of you had made to check who had posted what. Perhaps it would offend you less if we pretend the post of mine that you quote had said "generally not coming from you"?

 

I value intellectual honesty above most things. You can have whatever reaction to me you'd like..I don't fault you for it at all...but let's be honest about it, as much as possible.

[RockMyAmadeus]

No, of course not. This discussion isn't for Bosco...it's to counter the appeals to emotion that Bosco makes. I know, very boring for most...but one that will ultimately make the difference between freedom and slavery.

 

Stating "difference between freedom and slavery" is over-the-top extreme and meant to evoke emotions from folks. Like they have to overthrow some cabal that has been controlling them unknowingly. That is not even within the range of reason.

 

No, Bosco...for that is the end result of all dictatorial behavior. It is not "meant to evoke emotions" in people, other than those controlled by their emotions. Those who are ruled by reason understand that the end result of soft tyranny..."do what we say, or we will shame you!"...is hard tyranny...hard tyranny is slavery.

 

You actively sell to PL and HOS members because you do not believe in the current process and results. Tossing out all these other statements to make it sound like there is some hidden agenda distracts from what you feel are the problems associated with the PL/HOS.

 

Damn it. Broke my own statement.

 

Again, Bosco, you cannot make things up out of thin air and then attribute them to me. I DO NOT, and HAVE NOT, allowed HOS members to buy from me, under any circumstances.

 

And you are, again, mistaken. I offer to sell to PL members on a case by case basis, because the process is flawed....not useless. There is an important distinction that is lost on you.

 

 

[Balham's Finest]

(and FAOD I agree that the wall of essays is not coming from you).

 

 

Really...?

 

This:

 

bla

 

...is not a wall of text...?

 

Really...?

 

Come on.

 

Awesomely patronising, cheers. Yes, that is a wall of text. I didn't go through every post the two/three of you had made to check who had posted what. Perhaps it would offend you less if we pretend the post of mine that you quote had said "generally not coming from you"?

 

I value intellectual honesty above most things. You can have whatever reaction to me you'd like..I don't fault you for it at all...but let's be honest about it, as much as possible.

 

I was being honest about it as much as possible - in this case that didn't extend to doing a word count on everyone's posts, or doing anything more than having a cursory glance at the last few pages.

 

I have no agenda here. For what it's worth, I think you did the right thing by not selling to the guy that precipitated this discussion, and in my view there should be a way to put him on the PL anyway, notwithstanding his supposed offer to pay.

 

Ironically, I've now spent several posts talking about something I originally suggested be taken to PM. Oh well.

[revat]

You guys are essentially trying to convince the other person that there SHOULD/Shouldn't be a rule for these boards telling people who they can or cannot sell to. And also the raison d'etre for the PL, and how it should be used and what it should be used for.

 

These aren't bad topics for debate, but the arguments have gone so far beyond opinions, facts, and points, and have become interlaced with semantics, personal attacks, and argumentativeness about the way the other person argues that I would say the useful life of the conversation has expired to most people. The odds of you guys agreeing or even seeing the other POV have gone way past the point of "who gives an eff".

 

Honestly, the world needs people on both sides of the spectrum, people who fight to preserve order and enforce rules, and those who (lawfully) question them from time and ask why the rule exists to begin. And those people will naturally be at odds with each other on some (or many issues).

 

People are right to question why a person would sell to people on the PL. But there is no rule against it, he's not automatically in the wrong for doing it, and certainly doesn't owe anyone an explanation for it, save maybe his family if loses money as a result, or a judge if later tries to sue that PL person for a bad deal. The risk is his and his alone. He knows there's a risk that that will turn off other potential buyers/sellers, but he's an adult (I assume) and accepted the risk, and the risk of the deal going bad.

 

Maybe he needs the money more than some, and doesn't want to limit his market. Maybe others have given him a second/third/fourth chance before, and he wants to pay it forward. Maybe he just likes to eff with the establishment (without technically breaking rules). There's no harm in asking, but he doesn't owe anyone an explanation.

 

 

There's a debate to be had, but I swear not nearly as grand or noble or entertaining (in its current form) as both of you seem to think it is. I think that's why some people have kindly requested a move to PM's for you guys.

 

 

[Balham's Finest]

These aren't bad topics for debate, but the arguments have gone so far beyond opinions, facts, and points, and have become interlaced with semantics, personal attacks, and argumentativeness about the way the other person argues that I would say the useful life of the conversation has expired to most people.

 

Yes

[RockMyAmadeus]

This has got to be the all time pizzing match in PL history!

 

I gotta say though, i was 100% on RMA's side but like someone else said before, i'm not so sure you should be nominating people for the PL list if you dont care enough about it to not actually sell to people on the PL

 

There is a difference, Sufunk, between considering PL members on a case-by-case basis, and disregarding the PL entirely.

 

It may seem a fine distinction, but it's an important one. If the latter, I would agree with you. But it's the former.

 

We don't throw out the american justice system just because some innocent people are convicted, and vice versa. We consider things on a case-by-case basis.

[sufunk]

This has got to be the all time pizzing match in PL history!

 

I gotta say though, i was 100% on RMA's side but like someone else said before, i'm not so sure you should be nominating people for the PL list if you dont care enough about it to not actually sell to people on the PL

 

There is a difference, Sufunk, between considering PL members on a case-by-case basis, and disregarding the PL entirely.

 

It may seem a fine distinction, but it's an important one. If the latter, I would agree with you. But it's the former.

 

We don't throw out the american justice system just because some innocent people are convicted, and vice versa. We consider things on a case-by-case basis.

 

The people WERE on the PL list though. Saying someone was convicted but you dont consider them a convicted felon or someone found not guilty is actually a felon would be a more accurate analogy (thumbs u

 

Again though, what is the point of even nominating someone for the PL especially under these circumstances if thats your stance. Like i said before, i'm on your side on this one not selling to him but why even do the nomination if you believe people should look at each PL member on a case by case basis considering how many people have responded that they think you SHOULD sell him the book?

[Bosco685]

Again, Bosco, you cannot make things up out of thin air and then attribute them to me. I DO NOT, and HAVE NOT, allowed HOS members to buy from me, under any circumstances.

 

And you are, again, mistaken. I offer to sell to PL members on a case by case basis, because the process is flawed....not useless. There is an important distinction that is lost on you.

 

Yes, I am making this whole crazy debate up where you have stated a few things.

 

Folks, this is classic language of the demagogue.

 

DEMAGOGUE: a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power

 

So you pretty much were saying there are a few that are using the PL/HOS to control the masses. That is simply not true.

 

Folks, all sorts of really fine sounding arguments can be made for forcing conformity on everyone. "It's for your own good!" is the rallying cry used to convince everyone to "go along to get along."

 

Eventually, though, everyone is forced to conform to whatever the ones with the power dictate is acceptable, on penalty of shaming or worse...and the majority ends up in chains.

 

A stump speech to evoke emotions of outrage how the masses had no idea they were being controlled by a group that pulled the strings. Really?

 

No, of course not. This discussion isn't for Bosco...it's to counter the appeals to emotion that Bosco makes. I know, very boring for most...but one that will ultimately make the difference between freedom and slavery.

 

"difference between freedom and slavery"??!! In a PL/HOS thread on a comic book forum. Were you watching Braveheart today?

 

I can't make this up. It is all true. And now it has gone so far off the rails, the discussion is actually painful to go back and read.

 

Please. Have at it. Convince your friends how you have been personally wronged, attacked, and that there is some cabal out there controlling our destiny on this forum. Fantasy and reality has come to blend together in your head.

[Ryan.]

Is this, like, an OCD thing?

[RockMyAmadeus]

You guys are essentially trying to convince the other person that there SHOULD/Shouldn't be a rule for these boards telling people who they can or cannot sell to. And also the raison d'etre for the PL, and how it should be used and what it should be used for.

 

As stated before, I'm not trying to convince Bosco of anything (and ultimately, neither is he trying to convince me.) I'm countering his appeal to emotion so that those reading...if any...have a balanced point of view. This is the marketplace of ideas, and trying to persuade people who are unpersuadable isn't the point.

 

It boils down to a simple idea: should people have the freedom to do as they will, or will they be coerced/manipulated/shamed into conformity to what others think is appropriate?

 

I think, in that regard, the answer is clear.

 

These aren't bad topics for debate, but the arguments have gone so far beyond opinions, facts, and points, and have become interlaced with semantics, personal attacks, and argumentativeness about the way the other person argues that I would say the useful life of the conversation has expired to most people. The odds of you guys agreeing or even seeing the other POV have gone way past the point of "who gives an eff".

 

One of the biggest failings of this board is its tolerance for those who make discussion personal. Instead of discussing the merits of an issue, it invariably becomes about the people discussing it. This is a very serious problem, and will likely never be resolved, without serious will from many people. It is a common human condition, and unless vigorously spoken against, will always be a problem in any forum.

 

Honestly, the world needs people on both sides of the spectrum, people who fight to preserve order and enforce rules, and those who (lawfully) question them from time and ask why the rule exists to begin. And those people will naturally be at odds with each other on some (or many issues).

 

People are right to question why a person would sell to people on the PL.

 

To what extent...? Forever? Belligerently? By shaming and degradation?

 

But there is no rule against it, he's not automatically in the wrong for doing it, and certainly doesn't owe anyone an explanation for it, save maybe his family if loses money as a result, or a judge if later tries to sue that PL person for a bad deal.

 

A person does not give up his/her legal rights by dealing with a person who has been a problem for others.

 

The risk is his and his alone. He knows there's a risk that that will turn off other potential buyers/sellers, but he's an adult (I assume) and accepted the risk, and the risk of the deal going bad.

 

Maybe he needs the money more than some, and doesn't want to limit his market. Maybe others have given him a second/third/fourth chance before, and he wants to pay it forward. Maybe he just likes to eff with the establishment (without technically breaking rules). There's no harm in asking, but he doesn't owe anyone an explanation.

 

 

There's a debate to be had, but I swear not nearly as grand or noble or entertaining (in its current form) as both of you seem to think it is. I think that's why some people have kindly requested a move to PM's for you guys.

 

 

Again...the discussion is not for Bosco...it's to counter what Bosco is saying to those reading, and I'm quite certain Bosco feels the same way. Time will tell which of us does a better job of persuading. Thus "moving it to PMs" won't happen, on either part.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Again, Bosco, you cannot make things up out of thin air and then attribute them to me. I DO NOT, and HAVE NOT, allowed HOS members to buy from me, under any circumstances.

 

And you are, again, mistaken. I offer to sell to PL members on a case by case basis, because the process is flawed....not useless. There is an important distinction that is lost on you.

 

Yes, I am making this whole crazy debate up where you have stated a few things.

 

Folks, this is classic language of the demagogue.

 

DEMAGOGUE: a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power

 

So you pretty much were saying there are a few that are using the PL/HOS to control the masses. That is simply not true.

 

Folks, all sorts of really fine sounding arguments can be made for forcing conformity on everyone. "It's for your own good!" is the rallying cry used to convince everyone to "go along to get along."

 

Eventually, though, everyone is forced to conform to whatever the ones with the power dictate is acceptable, on penalty of shaming or worse...and the majority ends up in chains.

 

A stump speech to evoke emotions of outrage how the masses had no idea they were being controlled by a group that pulled the strings. Really?

 

No, of course not. This discussion isn't for Bosco...it's to counter the appeals to emotion that Bosco makes. I know, very boring for most...but one that will ultimately make the difference between freedom and slavery.

 

"difference between freedom and slavery"??!! In a PL/HOS thread on a comic book forum. Were you watching Braveheart today?

 

I can't make this up. It is all true. And now it has gone so far off the rails, the discussion is actually painful to go back and read.

 

Please. Have at it. Convince your friends how you have been personally wronged, attacked, and that there is some cabal out there controlling our destiny on this forum. Fantasy and reality has come to blend together in your head.

 

[sufunk]

RMA has me on ignore?!?

 

That is awesome sauce!!!

 

Why in the hell are you reading my posts?!?

[bababooey]

Is this

Read the post dimwit.

 

like

Valley Girl

 

an OCD thing?

How DARE you!!1!!

 

 

 

 

 

[comicdonna]

I'm trying to imagine what the threads here will be like, when you guys get old and grey.

[sufunk]

I'm trying to imagine what the threads here will be like, when you guys get old and grey.

 

I'm not that old but already grey, does that count?

[Ryan.]

Read the post

 

Guh, no thanks.

[RockMyAmadeus]

This has got to be the all time pizzing match in PL history!

 

I gotta say though, i was 100% on RMA's side but like someone else said before, i'm not so sure you should be nominating people for the PL list if you dont care enough about it to not actually sell to people on the PL

 

There is a difference, Sufunk, between considering PL members on a case-by-case basis, and disregarding the PL entirely.

 

It may seem a fine distinction, but it's an important one. If the latter, I would agree with you. But it's the former.

 

We don't throw out the american justice system just because some innocent people are convicted, and vice versa. We consider things on a case-by-case basis.

 

The people WERE on the PL list though.

 

And as I said before, not everyone on the PL deserved to be there.

 

Saying someone was convicted but you dont consider them a convicted felon or someone found not guilty is actually a felon would be a more accurate analogy (thumbs u

 

Um. Ok.

 

Again though, what is the point of even nominating someone for the PL especially under these circumstances if thats your stance.

 

Again: because the PL is flawed...not useless. That is an important distinction.

 

Like i said before, i'm on your side on this one not selling to him but why even do the nomination if you believe people should look at each PL member on a case by case basis considering how many people have responded that they think you SHOULD sell him the book?

 

Because it's not about selling the book or not selling the book. It's about warning people that "hey, kitsune took the book, then added terms after the fact, then ignored PMs, then tried to add more terms after the fact, then ultimately failed to pay after repeated promises to."

 

That's what the PL is for...not forcing "positive transactions" (whatever that means.)

[comicdonna]

I'm trying to imagine what the threads here will be like, when you guys get old and grey.

 

I'm not that old but already grey, does that count?

No!