PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Speedy-D]

That's it! I'm putting Bob on the PL. If anyone takes him off, I'll just do it again, so don't cross me!!!

 

And I'm putting Sharon and erazer on there too, just for good measure.

[DR.X]

Throw me on while your at it.

[Logan510]

Im going to sleep on it. I was hoping to hear from the buyer, but I haven't.

 

Unfortunately some of us have jobs other than comics, so Im gone

 

Thanks to everyone, for or against my submission, who got involved in this discussion.

 

Since everyone is curious - the cancelling of this transaction has me at a 3K+ loss

How so?

 

Just by GPA values

 

His worth 18K - Mine worth 15K

 

 

That's not really a loss though...you can't "lose" something you didn't have in the first place right?

[MetalPSI]

[djpinkpanther67]

If the seller's description needs to be infinitely accurate, then all buyers will always have an out. Also, there is nothing in the rules about having to provide an accurate description of all flaws. All the rules say is "List scans or information about the grade of the offered books."

 

Dan shouldn't have said anything about that stain if he didn't have it in hand and didn't know what it was, but he didn't lie, and he didn't say it wasn't a stain. He said he thought it was the light.

 

It's a fine line. How about taking it to the opposite extreme. If the book was sold with front and back cover scans and came back from CGC with "Pages Missing" would you feel the same way? It doesn't matter whether the seller "thought" or "knew" it wasn't stained. What matters is that the book had a serious flaw (in the buyers opinion) that was not included in the books description.

 

I think the rules not mentioning the book be accurately described is a pedantic point.

That's not the situation. He was selling a CGC 8.0 Blue, not a raw comic that might have missing pages.

 

That's not relevant. A grade is just a number. It doesn't tell the whole story and what some see as a serious defect others might not.

He's selling a CGC graded comic on CGC's site, the grade is king. And the rules stipulate info about grade and pics. And the accepted wisdom of the boards is that is king. You said it's a fine line...the difference between this situation and a raw comic that could have pages missing is demarcated with a triple line drawn with the fattest of sharpies.

 

If, in this situation, there are other factors that you feel are more important, you should speak up before hand, with something like pending graders' notes. I've never heard anyone suggest that all Board deals are pending graders' notes that meet a buyer's particular preferences.

...........Awww nevermind

 

Edited January 29, 2014 by djpinkpanther67

[jsilverjanet]

That's it! I'm putting Bob on the PL. If anyone takes him off, I'll just do it again, so don't cross me!!!

 

And I'm putting Sharon and erazer on there too, just for good measure.

Throw me on while your at it.

I am Spartacus?

[Spider-Dan]

Im going to sleep on it. I was hoping to hear from the buyer, but I haven't.

 

Unfortunately some of us have jobs other than comics, so Im gone

 

Thanks to everyone, for or against my submission, who got involved in this discussion.

 

Since everyone is curious - the cancelling of this transaction has me at a 3K+ loss

How so?

 

Just by GPA values

 

His worth 18K - Mine worth 15K

 

 

That's not really a loss though...you can't "lose" something you didn't have in the first place right?

 

If it was inappropriate for me to disclose that I apologize. I figure instead of answering all these PM's I would post it

[Speedy-D]

Throw me on while your at it.

You're not on already? What the deuce, why do we even bother with a PL if it's so obviously flawed!!

[Spider-Dan]

If the seller's description needs to be infinitely accurate, then all buyers will always have an out. Also, there is nothing in the rules about having to provide an accurate description of all flaws. All the rules say is "List scans or information about the grade of the offered books."

 

Dan shouldn't have said anything about that stain if he didn't have it in hand and didn't know what it was, but he didn't lie, and he didn't say it wasn't a stain. He said he thought it was the light.

 

It's a fine line. How about taking it to the opposite extreme. If the book was sold with front and back cover scans and came back from CGC with "Pages Missing" would you feel the same way? It doesn't matter whether the seller "thought" or "knew" it wasn't stained. What matters is that the book had a serious flaw (in the buyers opinion) that was not included in the books description.

 

I think the rules not mentioning the book be accurately described is a pedantic point.

That's not the situation. He was selling a CGC 8.0 Blue, not a raw comic that might have missing pages.

 

That's not relevant. A grade is just a number. It doesn't tell the whole story and what some see as a serious defect others might not.

He's selling a CGC graded comic on CGC's site, the grade is king. And the rules stipulate info about grade and pics. And the accepted wisdom of the boards is that is king. You said it's a fine line...the difference between this situation and a raw comic that could have pages missing is demarcated with a triple line drawn with the fattest of sharpies.

 

If, in this situation, there are other factors that you feel are more important, you should speak up before hand, with something like pending graders' notes. I've never heard anyone suggest that all Board deals are pending graders' notes that meet a buyer's particular preferences.

 

I like this guy

[Speedy-D]

If the seller's description needs to be infinitely accurate, then all buyers will always have an out. Also, there is nothing in the rules about having to provide an accurate description of all flaws. All the rules say is "List scans or information about the grade of the offered books."

 

Dan shouldn't have said anything about that stain if he didn't have it in hand and didn't know what it was, but he didn't lie, and he didn't say it wasn't a stain. He said he thought it was the light.

 

It's a fine line. How about taking it to the opposite extreme. If the book was sold with front and back cover scans and came back from CGC with "Pages Missing" would you feel the same way? It doesn't matter whether the seller "thought" or "knew" it wasn't stained. What matters is that the book had a serious flaw (in the buyers opinion) that was not included in the books description.

 

I think the rules not mentioning the book be accurately described is a pedantic point.

That's not the situation. He was selling a CGC 8.0 Blue, not a raw comic that might have missing pages.

 

That's not relevant. A grade is just a number. It doesn't tell the whole story and what some see as a serious defect others might not.

He's selling a CGC graded comic on CGC's site, the grade is king. And the rules stipulate info about grade and pics. And the accepted wisdom of the boards is that is king. You said it's a fine line...the difference between this situation and a raw comic that could have pages missing is demarcated with a triple line drawn with the fattest of sharpies.

 

If, in this situation, there are other factors that you feel are more important, you should speak up before hand, with something like pending graders' notes. I've never heard anyone suggest that all Board deals are pending graders' notes that meet a buyer's particular preferences.

 

I like this guy

Sadly, it turns out I'm wrong. But I still like me.

[JAM_NYC]

If the seller's description needs to be infinitely accurate, then all buyers will always have an out. Also, there is nothing in the rules about having to provide an accurate description of all flaws. All the rules say is "List scans or information about the grade of the offered books."

 

Dan shouldn't have said anything about that stain if he didn't have it in hand and didn't know what it was, but he didn't lie, and he didn't say it wasn't a stain. He said he thought it was the light.

 

It's a fine line. How about taking it to the opposite extreme. If the book was sold with front and back cover scans and came back from CGC with "Pages Missing" would you feel the same way? It doesn't matter whether the seller "thought" or "knew" it wasn't stained. What matters is that the book had a serious flaw (in the buyers opinion) that was not included in the books description.

 

I think the rules not mentioning the book be accurately described is a pedantic point.

That's not the situation. He was selling a CGC 8.0 Blue, not a raw comic that might have missing pages.

 

That's not relevant. A grade is just a number. It doesn't tell the whole story and what some see as a serious defect others might not.

He's selling a CGC graded comic on CGC's site, the grade is king. And the rules stipulate info about grade and pics. And the accepted wisdom of the boards is that is king. You said it's a fine line...the difference between this situation and a raw comic that could have pages missing is demarcated with a triple line drawn with the fattest of sharpies.

 

If, in this situation, there are other factors that you feel are more important, you should speak up before hand, with something like pending graders' notes. I've never heard anyone suggest that all Board deals are pending graders' notes that meet a buyer's particular preferences.

Bro, you know I love you, I just can't help myself

Just a recap, someone correct me if I'm wrong. Even though the book wasn't in hand (not a fan of that ), it was known at the time of the deal that the book was graded 8.0? And while the book was on its way back to Dan, Bob tried to change the parameters of the deal? If true, that doesn't sit right with me. I've never dealt with Bomber Bob, but from what I can gleam from his posts, he seems like a stand up guy. I guess what's sticking in my craw is the idea that if we replaced bob with a guy with 48 posts that signed up a month ago, I suspect folks wouldn't be so split on the subject. I thought was considered a binding contract. Consistency. It's what's for dinner.

[JAM_NYC]

I also wish the 2 parties can come to an agreement, but as mikenyc basically said, if it were that easy, this thread would still be on page 1.

[Darrell F]

If the seller's description needs to be infinitely accurate, then all buyers will always have an out. Also, there is nothing in the rules about having to provide an accurate description of all flaws. All the rules say is "List scans or information about the grade of the offered books."

 

Dan shouldn't have said anything about that stain if he didn't have it in hand and didn't know what it was, but he didn't lie, and he didn't say it wasn't a stain. He said he thought it was the light.

 

It's a fine line. How about taking it to the opposite extreme. If the book was sold with front and back cover scans and came back from CGC with "Pages Missing" would you feel the same way? It doesn't matter whether the seller "thought" or "knew" it wasn't stained. What matters is that the book had a serious flaw (in the buyers opinion) that was not included in the books description.

 

I think the rules not mentioning the book be accurately described is a pedantic point.

That's not the situation. He was selling a CGC 8.0 Blue, not a raw comic that might have missing pages.

 

That's not relevant. A grade is just a number. It doesn't tell the whole story and what some see as a serious defect others might not.

if you are as picky as they say this guy is about his books then don't buy the damn thing before the seller even has it hand. You would think someone as picky as that would want to know all the details before committing to such a large purchase.

[skypinkblu]

Im going to sleep on it. I was hoping to hear from the buyer, but I haven't.

 

Unfortunately some of us have jobs other than comics, so Im gone

 

Thanks to everyone, for or against my submission, who got involved in this discussion.

 

Since everyone is curious - the cancelling of this transaction has me at a 3K+ loss

How so?

 

Just by GPA values

 

His worth 18K - Mine worth 15K

 

 

That's not really a loss though...you can't "lose" something you didn't have in the first place right?

 

If it was inappropriate for me to disclose that I apologize. I figure instead of answering all these PM's I would post it

 

I usually quote Yogi Berra ("It ain't over till it's Over"), but a very smart businessperson friend of mine always quotes this guy.

 

Bernard Baruch ..."Nobody ever lost money taking a profit.". Amazingly enough a business school in NYC was named after him;)

 

 

[skypinkblu]

If the seller's description needs to be infinitely accurate, then all buyers will always have an out. Also, there is nothing in the rules about having to provide an accurate description of all flaws. All the rules say is "List scans or information about the grade of the offered books."

 

Dan shouldn't have said anything about that stain if he didn't have it in hand and didn't know what it was, but he didn't lie, and he didn't say it wasn't a stain. He said he thought it was the light.

 

It's a fine line. How about taking it to the opposite extreme. If the book was sold with front and back cover scans and came back from CGC with "Pages Missing" would you feel the same way? It doesn't matter whether the seller "thought" or "knew" it wasn't stained. What matters is that the book had a serious flaw (in the buyers opinion) that was not included in the books description.

 

I think the rules not mentioning the book be accurately described is a pedantic point.

That's not the situation. He was selling a CGC 8.0 Blue, not a raw comic that might have missing pages.

 

That's not relevant. A grade is just a number. It doesn't tell the whole story and what some see as a serious defect others might not.

if you are as picky as they say this guy is about his books then don't buy the damn thing before the seller even has it hand. You would think someone as picky as that would want to know all the details before committing to such a large purchase.

 

Good point, this is why I'd rather have a rule saying you cannot sell without a book in hand instead of a 200 post count. Here we have 2 nice people who both have more than 200 posts who both got ahead of the this step.

 

I also like one of my husband's favorite quotes.."

stop, stop you are both right" only I just found it and there was only one "stop" it's "stop you are both right" Which means, it's really time for me to go back to sleep .

 

[Bosco685]

Good point, this is why I'd rather have a rule saying you cannot sell without a book in hand instead of a 200 post count. Here we have 2 nice people who both have more than 200 posts who both got ahead of the this step.

 

When we were doing one of those annual "let's make the sales area better" discussions, I had brought up about pre-selling. Especially the challenges that can come from this, and better to have rules discouraging this practice.

 

A few of the sellers known to follow this approach were not too happy with the suggestion, and shot it down. The challenge is they may be trustworthy and know what they are doing. But there are those that will abuse the practice.

[Balham's Finest]

For the sake of board precedent (yes, we are now like the courts), I think it's very dangerous to give buyers an out from a purchase on this basis.

 

As far as I'm concerned, in the absence of a definitive statement from the seller saying "that is NOT a stain", and in the absence of a qualification from the buyer like "if it turns out that it IS a stain we're going to need to look again at price / I'm going to back out", then it's the buyer's risk.

 

What, if a seller is asked "is that a stain?", he's just supposed to say "I don't know" and leave it at that, otherwise he's giving the buyer an avenue to back out? I don't think that's fair.

 

I completely agree with the person that posted above saying if you're THAT picky about condition, then for a book at this price level you should be crystal clear about what you will and won't accept. Otherwise, you're buying a CGC 8.0 and that's what you're getting.

 

It really comes down to whether you think Dan was selling a CGC 8.0, or a CGC 8.0 that definitively did NOT have a stain. I don't think the latter construction is right in this case.

[mikenyc]

I'll bring up another pointed question, as the tide is turning toward a monetary loss.

 

The buyer altered the trade to exclude originally agreed upon books for trade to an all cash offer. Buyer's remorse seems moot because he still wanted to complete the transaction and it is being presented as Bob having a sentimental connection to the book, so it seems like the buyer was having personal reasons for altering the agreement.

 

The question is if Bob agreed to the trade, which was financially in Dan's favor and then decides to alter the deal, should anything that occurs after that matter?

 

The deal was for cash and two books, period. After a long back and forth the grader's notes came into play. This whole shebang is messed up.

 

What is the endgame here?

[Speedy-D]

Good rules of thumb:

 

1. Don't sell comics before you have them in hand and can inspect them to answer any questions.

 

2. If you don't know the answer to a question about the condition of a comic, don't guess. From what I've been told, legally speaking, saying "I think" does not absolve you from having set an expectation about the condition of the comic in the buyer's mind.

 

3. If you agree to a deal, don't try to change it. If you agreed to a trade plus cash, it's not cool to switch it up, especially if doing so means less for the other party.

 

4. If you're a "picky collector" who will back out of a deal for a graded comic because of something like graders' notes to which you do not yet have access, don't put up an unconditional . Stipulate that it's dependent on graders' notes, or a final inspection of the comic, or whatever. (This would be mitigated to a decent extent if the seller were following the first point.)

 

5. If, after a few attempts to alter a deal for whatever reason, you cancel it for yet another reason, you're going to look a little fishy. As many have said, Bob was probably not being fishy. He probably really did have too much time to ponder his deal and thereby made himself regret it, but nonetheless, that set him up to look like less than a straight shooter when, in the end, he backed out on account of the graders' notes.

[Speedy-D]

O, and finally, it never hurts to be close, close, dear personal friends with Casey.