PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Bomber-Bob]

I thought we agreed this would be a serious thread ?

[Bosco685]

if the seller clearly states in his FS thread that he needs payment within a certain number of days, and the buyer doesn't come through, I'd say that the seller is well within his rights to just cancel the transaction. Much like if the FS thread specifies "paypal only" and the buyer insists on paying by personal check.

 

2) If 2 weeks have passed and the seller hasn't shipped your item, you have no grounds for a refund - you need to wait 30 days before you can bring up this in the Probation Discussion thread.

 

I think you hit the key with the seller clearly stating they need payment in x amount of days. That way if the buyer agrees to buy they are also agreeing to those terms. I would add that if the seller clearly states a time frame for receiving payment, they must clearly state a time frame for them shipping after receipt of payment. That is the only way to even things between buyer and seller rights.

 

If the stated time has passed and no paymentis made, the seller has the right to cancel the transaction. If no shipment is made within the stated time, the buyer has the right to cancel the transaction and request a full refund.

 

If no specific timeframes are stated then the 30 day should be allowed. Thoughts?

 

 

Thanks for discussing this. The above sounds good on a sale where the seller states his requirements. However, what about the shipping ? I have never seen

a seller state his shipping timeframe. From my experience most sellers on the Boards are timely but I have encountered some not-so-timely sellers. Can we(the Boards) require the seller to post his shipping guidelines so that I, as a buyer, can decide if I want to buy from this seller ?

 

Amen to that!

[PovertyRow]

if the seller clearly states in his FS thread that he needs payment within a certain number of days, and the buyer doesn't come through, I'd say that the seller is well within his rights to just cancel the transaction. Much like if the FS thread specifies "paypal only" and the buyer insists on paying by personal check.

 

2) If 2 weeks have passed and the seller hasn't shipped your item, you have no grounds for a refund - you need to wait 30 days before you can bring up this in the Probation Discussion thread.

 

I think you hit the key with the seller clearly stating they need payment in x amount of days. That way if the buyer agrees to buy they are also agreeing to those terms. I would add that if the seller clearly states a time frame for receiving payment, they must clearly state a time frame for them shipping after receipt of payment. That is the only way to even things between buyer and seller rights.

 

If the stated time has passed and no paymentis made, the seller has the right to cancel the transaction. If no shipment is made within the stated time, the buyer has the right to cancel the transaction and request a full refund.

 

If no specific timeframes are stated then the 30 day should be allowed. Thoughts?

 

 

Thanks for discussing this. The above sounds good on a sale where the seller states his requirements. However, what about the shipping ? I have never seen

a seller state his shipping timeframe. From my experience most sellers on the Boards are timely but I have encountered some not-so-timely sellers. Can we(the Boards) require the seller to post his shipping guidelines so that I, as a buyer, can decide if I want to buy from this seller ?

 

Amen to that!

 

I think if the seller states payment within x amount of time, they also must state shipping in x amount of time. If they don't, or they just specify "payment due within x days" and not "book(s) will be shipped within x days of cleared payment", the whole deal defaults to the 30 day period.

 

There may be other things being brought up in the guidelines as well, which are here:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1460472#Post1460472

 

And please note the very first thing on that list is: The following guidelines are now in effect. Over some period of time these may be modified or expanded.

So since the PL and the Guidelines are definitely related, this is a good time to readdress the Guidelines.

 

In fairness, as I had suggested earlier with the PL Rules, both the PL Rules and the edited Guidelines should be posted with a notice they go into effect on a certain date. Maybe a 2 week lead time? And only sales threads created on or after that date are subject to the new PL Rules and Guidelines.

 

I don't think retroactive application is fair.

[comix4fun]

I thought we agreed this would be a serious thread ?

 

 

My 7 year old daughter agrees entirely and this is her impassioned plea to the boards:

 

 

 

It is a comic book message board...if we pass 90% seriousness they will repossess the word "comic" off of the site.

[Dick Pontoon]

Kudos to everyone putting in the time for discussion and to the ultimate board scrivener, POV.

 

I would prefer not to.

 

[PovertyRow]

Kudos to everyone putting in the time for discussion and to the ultimate board scrivener, POV.

 

I would prefer not to.

 

 

To quote Steve Martin in ROXANNE, "You're name wouldn't happen to be , would it?"

[PovertyRow]

 

It is a comic book message board...if we pass 90% seriousness they will repossess the word "comic" off of the site.

 

Well if I may be serious - while this IS a comic book message board, the Selling areas are not about the fun of comics. It is about money and product changing hands. And about some people taking advantage of others, lying, cheating and sometimes royally screwing over other members. Just my opinion, of course.

[Vtcomics]

I think some of these dirtballs deserve an even more scummy honorific. I vote we start a Mega Hall of Shame for career slime buckets.

[comix4fun]

 

It is a comic book message board...if we pass 90% seriousness they will repossess the word "comic" off of the site.

 

Well if I may be serious - while this IS a comic book message board, the Selling areas are not about the fun of comics. It is about money and product changing hands. And about some people taking advantage of others, lying, cheating and sometimes royally screwing over other members. Just my opinion, of course.

 

 

Well you are talking to a guy who has helped out a bunch of those screwed over people, helped catch a bunch of these probies to help get the money or books back, and lit the torches as we've chased down the rest....so I think I get it.

[PovertyRow]

 

It is a comic book message board...if we pass 90% seriousness they will repossess the word "comic" off of the site.

 

Well if I may be serious - while this IS a comic book message board, the Selling areas are not about the fun of comics. It is about money and product changing hands. And about some people taking advantage of others, lying, cheating and sometimes royally screwing over other members. Just my opinion, of course.

 

 

Well you are talking to a guy who has helped out a bunch of those screwed over people, helped catch a bunch of these probies to help get the money or books back, and lit the torches as we've chased down the rest....so I think I get it.

 

Why so serious?

[comix4fun]

 

It is a comic book message board...if we pass 90% seriousness they will repossess the word "comic" off of the site.

 

Well if I may be serious - while this IS a comic book message board, the Selling areas are not about the fun of comics. It is about money and product changing hands. And about some people taking advantage of others, lying, cheating and sometimes royally screwing over other members. Just my opinion, of course.

 

 

Well you are talking to a guy who has helped out a bunch of those screwed over people, helped catch a bunch of these probies to help get the money or books back, and lit the torches as we've chased down the rest....so I think I get it.

 

Why so serious?

 

 

 

I forgot my emoticons. I have a great pitchforks and torches one but my photobucket would not load fast enough.

[PovertyRow]

 

It is a comic book message board...if we pass 90% seriousness they will repossess the word "comic" off of the site.

 

Well if I may be serious - while this IS a comic book message board, the Selling areas are not about the fun of comics. It is about money and product changing hands. And about some people taking advantage of others, lying, cheating and sometimes royally screwing over other members. Just my opinion, of course.

 

 

Well you are talking to a guy who has helped out a bunch of those screwed over people, helped catch a bunch of these probies to help get the money or books back, and lit the torches as we've chased down the rest....so I think I get it.

 

Why so serious?

 

 

 

I forgot my emoticons. I have a great pitchforks and torches one but my photobucket would not load fast enough.

 

Well let that be a lesson to ya! Have Photobucket at the ready. Maybe we can incorporate that into some new set of rules!

 

[Bosco685]

 

It is a comic book message board...if we pass 90% seriousness they will repossess the word "comic" off of the site.

 

Well if I may be serious - while this IS a comic book message board, the Selling areas are not about the fun of comics. It is about money and product changing hands. And about some people taking advantage of others, lying, cheating and sometimes royally screwing over other members. Just my opinion, of course.

 

 

Well you are talking to a guy who has helped out a bunch of those screwed over people, helped catch a bunch of these probies to help get the money or books back, and lit the torches as we've chased down the rest....so I think I get it.

 

Why so serious?

 

I forgot my emoticons. I have a great pitchforks and torches one but my photobucket would not load fast enough.

 

Lightweight!

 

You have to choose a really deadly image.

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I think if the seller states payment within x amount of time, they also must state shipping in x amount of time. If they don't, or they just specify "payment due within x days" and not "book(s) will be shipped within x days of cleared payment", the whole deal defaults to the 30 day period.

 

Realizing you want to make these rules simple and you are probably tired of discussing them, I apologize in advance for continuing my comments.

 

If a seller fails to receive payment and has to wait 30 days, though irritating, he is not out anything financially.

If buyer pays immediately and the seller does not ship, he is out financially. Waiting 30 days may also preclude him from being able to reverse or contest the charges.

If I wait, say 15ish days, I get no indication the books have been shipped, I call my CC company. By the Board rules I may be eligible for the PL. Not sure if I like that. Sorry.

[PovertyRow]

I think if the seller states payment within x amount of time, they also must state shipping in x amount of time. If they don't, or they just specify "payment due within x days" and not "book(s) will be shipped within x days of cleared payment", the whole deal defaults to the 30 day period.

 

Realizing you want to make these rules simple and you are probably tired of discussing them, I apologize in advance for continuing my comments.

 

If a seller fails to receive payment and has to wait 30 days, though irritating, he is not out anything financially.

If buyer pays immediately and the seller does not ship, he is out financially. Waiting 30 days may also preclude him from being able to reverse or contest the charges.

If I wait, say 15ish days, I get no indication the books have been shipped, I call my CC company. By the Board rules I may be eligible for the PL. Not sure if I like that. Sorry.

 

Honestly, Bob, I am not at all tired of getting real input. What I AM getting tired of is the ocassional "fun offtopic posts" I sometimes feel obliged to make so I don;t look like a stick in the mud.

 

You bring up a VERY valid point. The 30 day rule was brought up a long time back. But your point is well taken, and I always felt 30 days was a bit long.

 

I would be very happy to support a 14 day rule in place of the 30 day.

 

To my thinking, 2 weeks is certainly enough time to both receive payment and ship the book(s) involved. If someone is not prepared to pay quickly why post in the slaes thread? If they are not prepared to ship quickly why advertise?

 

The only caveat to reducing the 30 days to 14 days is if a mutually agreed upon delay between buyer and seller has taken place via PM or email. If this agreed upon extended time is exceeded then it come to the PL.

 

I would hope, though, that an agreed upon delay for shipping is understood to be a disqualifier for certian methods of chargebacks.

 

That should be pointed out in the Guidelines. If we go with this the Guidelines should reflect the time frame as I outlined above, or a better version of it.

[Bomber-Bob]

I think if the seller states payment within x amount of time, they also must state shipping in x amount of time. If they don't, or they just specify "payment due within x days" and not "book(s) will be shipped within x days of cleared payment", the whole deal defaults to the 30 day period.

 

Realizing you want to make these rules simple and you are probably tired of discussing them, I apologize in advance for continuing my comments.

 

If a seller fails to receive payment and has to wait 30 days, though irritating, he is not out anything financially.

If buyer pays immediately and the seller does not ship, he is out financially. Waiting 30 days may also preclude him from being able to reverse or contest the charges.

If I wait, say 15ish days, I get no indication the books have been shipped, I call my CC company. By the Board rules I may be eligible for the PL. Not sure if I like that. Sorry.

 

Honestly, Bob, I am not at all tired of getting real input. What I AM getting tired of is the ocassional "fun offtopic posts" I sometimes feel obliged to make so I don;t look like a stick in the mud.

 

You bring up a VERY valid point. The 30 day rule was brought up a long time back. But your point is well taken, and I always felt 30 days was a bit long.

 

I would be very happy to support a 14 day rule in place of the 30 day.

 

To my thinking, 2 weeks is certainly enough time to both receive payment and ship the book(s) involved. If someone is not prepared to pay quickly why post in the slaes thread? If they are not prepared to ship quickly why advertise?

 

The only caveat to reducing the 30 days to 14 days is if a mutually agreed upon delay between buyer and seller has taken place via PM or email. If this agreed upon extended time is exceeded then it come to the PL.

 

I would hope, though, that an agreed upon delay for shipping is understood to be a disqualifier for certian methods of chargebacks.

 

That should be pointed out in the Guidelines. If we go with this the Guidelines should reflect the time frame as I outlined above, or a better version of it.

 

Pov, sounds good to me. 2 weeks seems adequate. I would think, statistically, that most deals with no action or communication for two weeks, go unresolved after 30 anyway. Let's see how the masses feel about 14 days.

[PovertyRow]

I think if the seller states payment within x amount of time, they also must state shipping in x amount of time. If they don't, or they just specify "payment due within x days" and not "book(s) will be shipped within x days of cleared payment", the whole deal defaults to the 30 day period.

 

Realizing you want to make these rules simple and you are probably tired of discussing them, I apologize in advance for continuing my comments.

 

If a seller fails to receive payment and has to wait 30 days, though irritating, he is not out anything financially.

If buyer pays immediately and the seller does not ship, he is out financially. Waiting 30 days may also preclude him from being able to reverse or contest the charges.

If I wait, say 15ish days, I get no indication the books have been shipped, I call my CC company. By the Board rules I may be eligible for the PL. Not sure if I like that. Sorry.

 

Honestly, Bob, I am not at all tired of getting real input. What I AM getting tired of is the ocassional "fun offtopic posts" I sometimes feel obliged to make so I don;t look like a stick in the mud.

 

You bring up a VERY valid point. The 30 day rule was brought up a long time back. But your point is well taken, and I always felt 30 days was a bit long.

 

I would be very happy to support a 14 day rule in place of the 30 day.

 

To my thinking, 2 weeks is certainly enough time to both receive payment and ship the book(s) involved. If someone is not prepared to pay quickly why post in the slaes thread? If they are not prepared to ship quickly why advertise?

 

The only caveat to reducing the 30 days to 14 days is if a mutually agreed upon delay between buyer and seller has taken place via PM or email. If this agreed upon extended time is exceeded then it come to the PL.

 

I would hope, though, that an agreed upon delay for shipping is understood to be a disqualifier for certian methods of chargebacks.

 

That should be pointed out in the Guidelines. If we go with this the Guidelines should reflect the time frame as I outlined above, or a better version of it.

 

Pov, sounds good to me. 2 weeks seems adequate. I would think, statistically, that most deals with no action or communication for two weeks, go unresolved after 30 anyway. Let's see how the masses feel about 14 days.

 

I understand the 30 day rule is a more recent thing but we are looking at modifying both the Guidelines and creating the Probation Rules.

 

This is an ideal time to make such mods.

 

And I really cannot think of a valid reason for 14 days to be seen as too short a time to post "I'll Take It", send the money, have it received and have the books shipped.

 

14 days is a heck of a long time for a transaction.

 

Yes there is a grey area here. If the buyer takes 7 days to pay cleared payment and the seller takes 7 days to ship, the books may be recieved a few days after the 14 day period. Somehting to consider.

 

As regards the current 30 day rule, I have read the posts that created it but did not see anything regarding time lapse for chargebacks etc. It was more a "30 days sounds reasonable" type of argument that was just agreed to. (sorry about that).

[Boozad]

14 days is a heck of a long time for a transaction.

 

Yes there is a grey area here. If the buyer takes 7 days to pay cleared payment and the seller takes 7 days to ship, the books may be recieved a few days after the 14 day period. Somehting to consider.

 

If this is going to be the way forward, please note that if buyers choose to take Airmail or Surface Mail as a shipping option when buying from Brit boardies, it can take between 2-6 weeks for the package to arrive. Also there is no tracking on aforementioned shipping options so no proof of postage to back up the seller. 14 days from start to finish is a hell of a fine timeline for some International exchanges.

 

I've waited in excess of three months for some transactions to be completed, but that's just me having faith in the boardies I deal with.

[Snake Eyes]

I would argue that the 14 day suggestion is actually way too harsh for a number of reasons.

 

First, many boardies use media mail to ship books. Even if I ship a purchase using this option the day after receiving payment, I cannot be garaunteed that it will arrive in the next 13 days (usually it does, but there are certainly times it takes longer). Media mail is oftentimes the only viable way to sell bulk/low-grade/cheap books.

 

Secondly, I believe the 30 day grace period is absolutely appropriate given the world wide reach of this board. We are not all Americans living in the lower-48 and oftentimes international or Alaska/Hawaii shipping will take longer. To enact a sweeping rule for 14 days start to finish on a transaction would have a chilling effect on their participation I believe. Do we really want to lose FT sales threads?

 

Finally, and on a more personal note (when and until this rule does change)...I actually would bring it to the discussion for placing the buyer on the PL if I sold an item, and a chargeback was filed 14 days after payment was sent. As the rules currently stand, unilaterally cancelling a transaction at that point is not (in my understanding) within the sales forum rules.

 

I certainly do not delay in shipment, but I am not a fan of imposing your own personal rules on the transaction when forum guidelines were clearly in place. What if USPS goes on strike as Canada Post did? We need to leave a little leeway in the system IMO,

 

 

Edited July 8, 2011 by Snake Eyes

[PovertyRow]

FINALLY some things that tick me off. Do you people actually READ what is written and comprehend it?

 

First, please note I said "Yes there is a grey area here. If the buyer takes 7 days to pay cleared payment and the seller takes 7 days to ship, the books may be received a few days after the 14 day period. Somethi9ng to consider." For the international sales, yes, more than a few days. I DID NOT FACTOR THAT IN. I AM NOW. So we have to include something along the lines of extra time allowed for such transactions. BUT - we need to simply post in the Guidelines that International sales may result in such delays.

 

Is that a chore?

 

Second, I see "If this is going to be the way forward, please note that if buyers choose to take Airmail or Surface Mail as a shipping option when buying from Brit boardies, it can take between 2-6 weeks for the package to arrive."

 

And also "I certainly do not delay in shipment, but I am not a fan of imposing your own personal rules on the transaction when forum guidelines were clearly in place. What if USPS goes on strike as Canada Post did? We need to leave a little leeway in the system IMO"

 

What I actually proposed was specifying that that the TIME TO SHIP after a cleared payment was within 7 DAYS. Show me where I mentioned RECEIVING the books within 7 days. I specified TIME TO SHIP. Again, is it a chore to get that? TIME TO SHIP???

 

The naysayers are talking about extenuating circumstances that even they admit go over the 30 day rule. So what happens to the validity of the 30 day rule? Is it really any different than a 14 day rule? Is 7 days to get payment and 7 days to ship unreasonable? I don't think so.

 

I have heard "I am not a fan of imposing your own personal rules on the transaction " PLEASE tell me me when I have never solicited feedback for a change in the existing rules. Yes, I EXPRESS my personal ideas. But I, by no means, am trying to IMPOSE my new rules. Where did that come from? How many times have I asked for input into these IDEAS (not RULES but IDEAS)? How many times have I made changes based on OTHER PERSONAL IDEAS?

 

And I am seeing "media mail" being mentioned. That is against USPS rules to ship comics via media mail unless they contain no advertising beyond ads for upcoming issues - such as the Classics Illustrated books with their HRN (I assume folks here know what the HRN is? ). I do not see Media Mail as an excuse unless the books meet Media Mail criteria.

 

So yes, I am finally ticked. Really ticked. SO ticked I will continue with this. I want everyone who posted what I cited above to show me where my posts actually conformed to their accusations. Show me.