PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Boozad]

Accusations? I was asking a question about a point I wasn't totally clear on and mentioning circumstances that would have effects on that point if I had read it right. And obviously those transactions would take longer than 30 days to complete. Is that such a chore to understand?

 

You asked for input, you got it. If it ticks you off don't ask for it. I'll leave you to it and not bother with this discussion again.

[PovertyRow]

Accusations? I was asking a question about a point I wasn't totally clear on and mentioning circumstances that would have effects on that point if I had read it right. And obviously those transactions would take longer than 30 days to complete. Is that such a chore to understand?

 

You asked for input, you got it. If it ticks you off don't ask for it. I'll leave you to it and not bother with this discussion again.

 

Boozad -

 

I will say again I was very careful to specify 7 days to SHIP. Not to RECEIVE. To SHIP. Is that such a chore to understand?

 

I never mentioned 7 days to receive the books. But you made it sound like that is what I proposed when you said "14 days from start to finish is a hell of a fine timeline for some International exchanges"

 

"14 days from start to finish" is very far from what I brought up. Nes pas?

 

[skypinkblu]

FINALLY some things that tick me off. Do you people actually READ what is written and comprehend it?

 

First, please note I said "Yes there is a grey area here. If the buyer takes 7 days to pay cleared payment and the seller takes 7 days to ship, the books may be received a few days after the 14 day period. Somethi9ng to consider." For the international sales, yes, more than a few days. I DID NOT FACTOR THAT IN. I AM NOW. So we have to include something along the lines of extra time allowed for such transactions. BUT - we need to simply post in the Guidelines that International sales may result in such delays.

 

Is that a chore?

 

Second, I see "If this is going to be the way forward, please note that if buyers choose to take Airmail or Surface Mail as a shipping option when buying from Brit boardies, it can take between 2-6 weeks for the package to arrive."

 

And also "I certainly do not delay in shipment, but I am not a fan of imposing your own personal rules on the transaction when forum guidelines were clearly in place. What if USPS goes on strike as Canada Post did? We need to leave a little leeway in the system IMO"

 

What I actually proposed was specifying that that the TIME TO SHIP after a cleared payment was within 7 DAYS. Show me where I mentioned RECEIVING the books within 7 days. I specified TIME TO SHIP. Again, is it a chore to get that? TIME TO SHIP???

 

The naysayers are talking about extenuating circumstances that even they admit go over the 30 day rule. So what happens to the validity of the 30 day rule? Is it really any different than a 14 day rule? Is 7 days to get payment and 7 days to ship unreasonable? I don't think so.

 

I have heard "I am not a fan of imposing your own personal rules on the transaction " PLEASE tell me me when I have never solicited feedback for a change in the existing rules. Yes, I EXPRESS my personal ideas. But I, by no means, am trying to IMPOSE my new rules. Where did that come from? How many times have I asked for input into these IDEAS (not RULES but IDEAS)? How many times have I made changes based on OTHER PERSONAL IDEAS?

 

And I am seeing "media mail" being mentioned. That is against USPS rules to ship comics via media mail unless they contain no advertising beyond ads for upcoming issues - such as the Classics Illustrated books with their HRN (I assume folks here know what the HRN is? ). I do not see Media Mail as an excuse unless the books meet Media Mail criteria.

So yes, I am finally ticked. Really ticked. SO ticked I will continue with this. I want everyone who posted what I cited above to show me where my posts actually conformed to their accusations. Show me.

 

Michael, we've been over this in several threads...some post offices (for example mine) do not say comics cannot be shipped media. They interpret the ads as not being valid, since they are not current. I've asked, other people have asked, and that is what the post office administration here, says, so saying it's against the rules is still a little iffy.

 

I'm not arguing the timing, because I don't ship media often, and only when the buyer agrees, but I did want to clarify.

 

Oh and HRN = High Reprint Number, if this was a test

Edited July 8, 2011 by skypinkblu

[PovertyRow]

FINALLY some things that tick me off. Do you people actually READ what is written and comprehend it?

 

First, please note I said "Yes there is a grey area here. If the buyer takes 7 days to pay cleared payment and the seller takes 7 days to ship, the books may be received a few days after the 14 day period. Somethi9ng to consider." For the international sales, yes, more than a few days. I DID NOT FACTOR THAT IN. I AM NOW. So we have to include something along the lines of extra time allowed for such transactions. BUT - we need to simply post in the Guidelines that International sales may result in such delays.

 

Is that a chore?

 

Second, I see "If this is going to be the way forward, please note that if buyers choose to take Airmail or Surface Mail as a shipping option when buying from Brit boardies, it can take between 2-6 weeks for the package to arrive."

 

And also "I certainly do not delay in shipment, but I am not a fan of imposing your own personal rules on the transaction when forum guidelines were clearly in place. What if USPS goes on strike as Canada Post did? We need to leave a little leeway in the system IMO"

 

What I actually proposed was specifying that that the TIME TO SHIP after a cleared payment was within 7 DAYS. Show me where I mentioned RECEIVING the books within 7 days. I specified TIME TO SHIP. Again, is it a chore to get that? TIME TO SHIP???

 

The naysayers are talking about extenuating circumstances that even they admit go over the 30 day rule. So what happens to the validity of the 30 day rule? Is it really any different than a 14 day rule? Is 7 days to get payment and 7 days to ship unreasonable? I don't think so.

 

I have heard "I am not a fan of imposing your own personal rules on the transaction " PLEASE tell me me when I have never solicited feedback for a change in the existing rules. Yes, I EXPRESS my personal ideas. But I, by no means, am trying to IMPOSE my new rules. Where did that come from? How many times have I asked for input into these IDEAS (not RULES but IDEAS)? How many times have I made changes based on OTHER PERSONAL IDEAS?

 

And I am seeing "media mail" being mentioned. That is against USPS rules to ship comics via media mail unless they contain no advertising beyond ads for upcoming issues - such as the Classics Illustrated books with their HRN (I assume folks here know what the HRN is? ). I do not see Media Mail as an excuse unless the books meet Media Mail criteria.

So yes, I am finally ticked. Really ticked. SO ticked I will continue with this. I want everyone who posted what I cited above to show me where my posts actually conformed to their accusations. Show me.

 

Michael, we've been over this in several threads...some post offices (for example mine) do not say comics cannot be shipped media. They interpret the ads as not being valid, since they are not current. I've asked, other people have asked, and that is what the post office administration here, says, so saying it's against the rules is still a little iffy.

 

I'm not arguing the timing, because I don't ship media often, and only when the buyer agrees, but I did want to clarify.

 

Oh and HRN = High Reprint Number, if this was a test

 

Hey Sha, I do understand that and have read it but the USPS site still states that "Media Mail can not contain advertising except for incidental announcements of books." And I have read other posts abot USPS opening up and rejecting comic books based on that. So while some POs may overlook it, others may not.

 

So I think saying it is not against the rules is iffy because it may come down to an individual PO determination. Especially since the the PO reserves the right to open and inspect. And a different PO, somewhere else along the chain, may decide to open, inspect and say "Nope. Not valid".

 

I don't think we can outright endorse Media Mail for comics. I think the best we can do is present both sides and require both the buyer and seller to agree there is a risk. And that would be a caveat emptor.

 

Oh yeah - you failed the test. It means "Highest Reorder Number". But danged close!

[skypinkblu]

It was 4:30 am here, and why are you still up, ?...yes, I knew highest;) I was going to correct it, but the board went down;)

 

I am an advocate of mailing as soon as you get paid...I was not disputing that:)

 

I once had someone tell me they didn't mail my books for two weeks because they had "a life" never bought from that person again...

 

I'm sure there will be more great comments, Rome was not built in a day:)

[Iceman399]

I know I am relatively new around here to buying (and yet to sell anything).

 

But I strongly support the 14 days to have a transaction "completed" in terms of the book(s) have been posted , payment has been made to the seller, and the book has been shipped.

 

There are constant delays in the mail for one reason or another but there shouldn't be a reason that all of the transaction can be done. I mean if the buyer posts and it takes the seller a couple of days to invoice or what not...then by all means I believe the buyer has the right to take a couple of days to send payment. Not many live by the net at all times able to send payment instantly.

 

If a buyer and seller are in constant talks let them take as long as they want to mash out the details. But if one is unresponsive etc for 2 weeks well I believe something needs to be stated. (again there may be extreme circumstances such as hospitalization which I am sure many would be more than considerate to individual) but for the general "rule" I support the 14 days for a transaction.

[PovertyRow]

Shar, I posted my reply to you and the backup kicked in and my reply was hanging there, not posted, while the boards were chugging to reload and finally timed out. Shocking to me they actually posted it over an hour after I clicked to submit it.

 

I think I am a couple of hours behind you tiime wise,. Right now it is only 2:25AM. 3:00AM is my usual sleep time. So I have 35 more minutes to tick people off!

 

In retrospect my reply was harsher than I would have liked, I have taken much care trying to phrase things with the right words to help allevaite ambiguity. But when I bring up a concept like 7 days to pay and 7 days to ship, suddenly that becomes a point of contention and I am imposiing my own rules and saying people have to recieve books in 14 days. I lost it. OK? Pov is human and he lost it. Kill me. Draw and quarter me.

 

It has been frustrating and this time I let my frustration take reign. NOT the best way to "win friends and influenc people".

 

So I shall learn from this and leave emotions out of it. As far as my poor behavior:

 

I say we kill Pov! I say we hang Pov, THEN we kill him! I say we stomp him! Then we tattoo him! Then we hang him! And THEN we kill him!

 

Oh yeah Not only Highest but "Reorder" as opposed to "Reprint".

 

 

[PovertyRow]

Oh, and in reading back I alluded to but did not make clear:

 

So 7 days to send payment

 

7 days to ship after payment has cleared.

 

I mentioned "cleared payment" when I first brought this up but realize it could have been made, well, clearer.

 

Is that unreasonable?

[mikenyc]

Why make constricting policies that will require more board interpretation?

 

30 days from to my longbox. Done and done

 

Now you are adding another layer for something to go awry and not adhere to. Seller ships books in 7 days but they take longer to arrive. Buyer nominates to PL list? Books arrive three days later. We have wasted our time, and no one would agree to it if it was a seasoned seller.

 

Like Sharon said.

 

K.I.S.S.

 

I do appreciate your hard work, and succinct listing of the revised policies, but this is starting to seem like more rules, for the sake of more rules.

 

 

[Dick Pontoon]

Kudos to everyone putting in the time for discussion and to the ultimate board scrivener, POV.

 

I would prefer not to.

 

 

To quote Steve Martin in ROXANNE, "You're name wouldn't happen to be , would it?"

 

I was trying to reference Melville as opposed to Martin, but must have failed miserably.

 

[Bio-Rupp]

Got to chime in here, fellas.

 

First off...

 

Sharon stating K.I.S.S. =

 

Pov... you are awesome. Your statements are well thought out and easy to understand. Also a great guy and definatly no "stick in the mud".

 

Mikenyc88, Snake & RMA all bringing up valid points this week. Rupp is in awe of all the big words being thrown about. Had to use the dictionary three or four times with this crowd this week ...oh and I, of course, blame Green for all the derails

 

I personally appreciate how everyone is trying to streamline these rules and modify them for the greater good.

 

But... I'm going to have to say that a 14 day rule just isn't enough time.

 

After one of the Clooneythons, I have many, many packages to pack. Anyone who has bought from me knows that while my packing isn't pretty, it's usually well done. The drawback is that it takes time to do this... especially when there are many to pack.

 

CGC books require bubble wrap and excess paper... other books need to packed sturdy and taped in place etc. I'm usually rushing trying to find the right size box or cut cardboard. I'm still packing stuff from two weeks ago right now. So the 14 day rule would have already lapsed for me... and I would be on the '" list.

 

This just isn't enough time when you are running a "one man show". Combine that with trying to work a full time job, get ready for school to start, keep Mrs. Rupp at bay plus whatever else life throws at you... then one has to realize that 30 days is the better option.

 

I ship media to keep the BUYER'S costs down and charge a max $5 ship fee. This in turn gets people to buy more. As most of the Shatlover's (kinda like Claymates) can tell you... even with media mail... shipping can get close to $20 for long boxes to be shipped and I usually eat that extra cost (which is fine, since I sold more). The only point to my love of Media mail in relation to this thread is that as Snake stated, media mail can extend that shipping time-frame out considerably.

 

Usually my shipping gets out quick, but with the CGC X-men sale and a few personal issues this week... I'm extremely happy with the time frame being 30 days.

 

Please... lets at least keep that aspect of our little community, the same

Edited July 8, 2011 by Bio-Rupp

[DR.X]

I've waited in excess of three months for some transactions to be completed, but that's just me having faith in the boardies I deal with.

 

 

I'm glad you finally got that stack of XXX smut magazines.

 

DR.X

[mschmidt]

Why make constricting policies that will require more board interpretation?

 

30 days from to my longbox. Done and done

 

Now you are adding another layer for something to go awry and not adhere to. Seller ships books in 7 days but they take longer to arrive. Buyer nominates to PL list? Books arrive three days later. We have wasted our time, and no one would agree to it if it was a seasoned seller.

 

Like Sharon said.

 

K.I.S.S.

 

I do appreciate your hard work, and succinct listing of the revised policies, but this is starting to seem like more rules, for the sake of more rules.

 

 

I agree.

[Snake Eyes]

 

 

Not even sure what kind of response is appropriate to the past couple of pages. All I can say is that input was solicited, so I posted my feelings on how I would like to see the PL run. They are no more or less valid than anyone else's who makes use of the marketplace. Simply posted as points to consider when the eventual voting on new rules occurs.

 

I apologize if it was read as such, but I was not accusing anyone of anything. I certainly cannot turn a phrase/craft a sentence like some on here, so if my intent was misinterpreted fault my writing. That having been said, please regard all of my comments as directed for or against hypothetical others or rules...not at a particular person. Using particular instances of listings or bad behaviors to support a point should also not be viewed as an attack on that person...simply a recounting of the circumstances as I know them

 

This remains directed at no one in particular, just the concept being addressed. I remain a supporter of leaving the time frame alone. If items are required quicker, or time payments need to be arranged, I feel PMs or in sales-thread rules (such as what types of payments you accept) would be the best place for this. Not a fan of forcing everyone onto what is a much tighter time frame. Therefore, I remain against changing the time frame.

[Snake Eyes]

Why make constricting policies that will require more board interpretation?

 

30 days from to my longbox. Done and done

 

Now you are adding another layer for something to go awry and not adhere to. Seller ships books in 7 days but they take longer to arrive. Buyer nominates to PL list? Books arrive three days later. We have wasted our time, and no one would agree to it if it was a seasoned seller.

 

Like Sharon said.

 

K.I.S.S.

 

I do appreciate your hard work, and succinct listing of the revised policies, but this is starting to seem like more rules, for the sake of more rules.

 

 

I agree.

 

Seconded

[Bio-Rupp]

Why make constricting policies that will require more board interpretation?

 

30 days from to my longbox. Done and done

 

Now you are adding another layer for something to go awry and not adhere to. Seller ships books in 7 days but they take longer to arrive. Buyer nominates to PL list? Books arrive three days later. We have wasted our time, and no one would agree to it if it was a seasoned seller.

 

Like Sharon said.

 

K.I.S.S.

 

I do appreciate your hard work, and succinct listing of the revised policies, but this is starting to seem like more rules, for the sake of more rules.

 

 

I agree.

 

Seconded

 

Thirded-ed

 

[seanfingh]

Why make constricting policies that will require more board interpretation?

 

30 days from to my longbox. Done and done

 

Now you are adding another layer for something to go awry and not adhere to. Seller ships books in 7 days but they take longer to arrive. Buyer nominates to PL list? Books arrive three days later. We have wasted our time, and no one would agree to it if it was a seasoned seller.

 

Like Sharon said.

 

K.I.S.S.

 

I do appreciate your hard work, and succinct listing of the revised policies, but this is starting to seem like more rules, for the sake of more rules.

 

 

I agree.

 

Me too. I try to ship quickly, but sometimes life gets in the way. Everyone I have ever been tardy to has been understanding. Every time I have had someone be tardy to me, I have been understanding. I would hate to have an untenable 14 day rule mess all that up.

[Mr.Diggler]

I've waited in excess of three months for some transactions to be completed, but that's just me having faith in the boardies I deal with.

 

 

I'm glad you finally got that stack of XXX smut magazines.

 

DR.X

[PovertyRow]

Without touching the existing Guidelines, here is where the Probation List Rules sit. Do folks feel we need changes to it?

 

HOS and Probation List Rules

 

1) The 30-Day Rule

a) If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days, the offended party may submit the offender's name for inclusion to the HOS/Probation List (hereafter called the PL)

 

b) If the transaction is agreed on by both parties to take longer than 30 days - for example, a transaction involving time payments over a longer time, the 30 day clock begins from the time the agreed upon conditions were violated.

 

c) The 30-day rule is suspended if the accused refuses to complete the transaction or if the transaction cannot be completed due to, for example, the item being sold to someone else.

 

d) A Transaction between board members is not confined to the CGC Message Boards. Any transaction between forum members, regardless of the venue, is eligible for inclusion in the PL.

 

2) Notification on the Probation Discussion Thread

a) After the 30 Day Rule is fulfilled, the accuser will send a PM to the accused informing them the issue is being submitted to the Probation Discussion Thread for their inclusion in the PL. This should be a new PM and not part of an existing PM chain.

 

b) After the PM is sent the accuser may submit the accused for inclusion in the PL via the Probation Discussion Thread.

 

c) The accuser should outline as completely as possible the circumstances surrounding the transaction in dispute. Where possible include hyperlinks to board transactions and contact attempts along with dates.

 

d) If reasonable additional expenses are incurred the accuser may include them as part of the resolution. The validity of "reasonable additional expenses" may be subject to discussion.

 

e) If completing the transaction is no longer possible, the accuser may outline a proposed path to resolution.

 

3) Being Placed On The PL

a) After a 72-hour waiting period, if the accused does not respond they will be placed on the PL.

 

b) If the accused responds in the Probation Discussion Thread and it is determined the conditions of the transaction was not met, they will be added to the PL.

 

c) If the accused is not available during that 72-hour period and is placed on the PL, they are free to later respond in the Probation Discussion Thread and present their side.

 

d) If the accused has not responded in the Probation Discussion Thread but continues to post on the boards, a reply can be made informing them they are being considered for placement on the PL.

 

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

5) Probation List versus Hall Of Shame

a) The Probation List is for transactions that have not been fulfilled as promised.

 

b) The Hall Of Shame is for serious transgressions. For example, selling a book/books and sending nothing of value in the package. Interfering with someone's business. Being a multiple offender.

 

c) The Hall Of Shame candidate is subject to all of the above rules.

 

d) Inclusion in the Hall Of Shame must be decided by a poll.

 

e) Removal from the Hall Of Shame must be decided by a poll.

[Point Five]

Looks good to me!