My auction question

[capt_comics]

Well, I'll play Devil's Advocate, and defend Heritage, just for some perspective.

 

 

Heritage is the single largest collectibles auction house. They do what, $100 million a year (more? a lot more? certainly not less) in sales of everything from fine art, to raw gold, to Elvis memorabilia to comics. They've developed a reputation for bringing in the most money for these sort of items, a notion that is extremely valuable and would be hard to win back if fraud were discovered. An auction house that defrauds its users doesn't stick around too long...

 

What I'm hearing here is an insinuation that Heritage allows employees to bid while knowing what the max proxy bid is that they are up against. Are we talking every lot in auction, or just those above a certain monetary threshold?

 

Let's assume this is true, and they are doing it to get more buyer/seller fees as well as continue their marketability as the auction house that brings in the most $$. Well, what is the risk? The risk is that they will be found out. Is that an acceptable risk, if one were to look at it objectively? Can we really say that Heritage is prepared to punt all that they've built up over the years in order to scratch out a few extra tens of thousands of dollars on comic-book sales?

 

 

It would be really easy to set up a system by which employees cannot see the proxy bids of us plebes. It would be even easier to make employees sign an agreement preventing them from bidding on items they know the proxy bids for. It would be monumentally stupid for them to bump up a copy of Boy Comics for the purpose of dragging in a few hundred extra dollars for their consignor.

 

I understand the logic and admit that it's a strong argument against foul play. (thumbs u

 

However, apply this same logic to Jason Ewert. Here was a guy with a stellar reputation, who moved hundreds and hundreds of high value books, who was in with all the movers and shakers, who had been around for years, and had a business model that worked spectacularly well.

 

However, at some point (if we are to believe CGC's reasoning), he started trimming books to make a few more $$$.

 

Stupid? Monumentally so.

 

But he still did it.

 

Can you say Bernie Madoff

 

 

[capt_comics]

I rarely bid with any of the major auction houses...............but,

 

over the last few months I've bid on a few movie posters with one of them. I found it quite strange that I was outbid on everyone I bid on within a half hour of me bidding?

 

 

 

 

[DrWatson]

Got my azz burned once. So, I never proxy bid anymore.

[capt_comics]

Yes, I suppose you should always wait until the end.

 

 

Just found it odd that somebody was watching these posters that close to outbid me within a half hour?

 

 

[namisgr]

Well, I'll play Devil's Advocate, and defend Heritage, just for some perspective.

 

 

Heritage is the single largest collectibles auction house. They do what, $100 million a year (more? a lot more? certainly not less) in sales of everything from fine art, to raw gold, to Elvis memorabilia to comics. They've developed a reputation for bringing in the most money for these sort of items, a notion that is extremely valuable and would be hard to win back if fraud were discovered. An auction house that defrauds its users doesn't stick around too long...

 

What I'm hearing here is an insinuation that Heritage allows employees to bid while knowing what the max proxy bid is that they are up against. Are we talking every lot in auction, or just those above a certain monetary threshold?

 

Let's assume this is true, and they are doing it to get more buyer/seller fees as well as continue their marketability as the auction house that brings in the most $$. Well, what is the risk? The risk is that they will be found out. Is that an acceptable risk, if one were to look at it objectively? Can we really say that Heritage is prepared to punt all that they've built up over the years in order to scratch out a few extra tens of thousands of dollars on comic-book sales?

 

 

It would be really easy to set up a system by which employees cannot see the proxy bids of us plebes. It would be even easier to make employees sign an agreement preventing them from bidding on items they know the proxy bids for. It would be monumentally stupid for them to bump up a copy of Boy Comics for the purpose of dragging in a few hundred extra dollars for their consignor.

 

I understand the logic and admit that it's a strong argument against foul play. (thumbs u

 

However, apply this same logic to Jason Ewert. Here was a guy with a stellar reputation, who moved hundreds and hundreds of high value books, who was in with all the movers and shakers, who had been around for years, and had a business model that worked spectacularly well.

 

However, at some point (if we are to believe CGC's reasoning), he started trimming books to make a few more $$$.

 

Stupid? Monumentally so.

 

But he still did it.

 

You're talking about one person (maybe two, maybe three).

 

 

Heritage is a larger organisation, with more potential for word to "slip out" and thus is exponentially riskier.

 

A conspiracy surviving for a while among a few is easier to believe than one lasting for ~7 years when shared among many, as is being argued here

 

Here's another scenario. Heritage employees, who are permitted to bid on auction items, get to see all of the material before it's sold. Consequently, they have an advantage over other prospective buyers, in that they can judge in person whether a book might benefit from a resubmission or an enhancement/resub. On the other hand, you and I have to rely on scans to make our purchasing decisions.

 

It's not illegal, and doesn't jeopardize the entire multi-million dollar auction operation, but it's also a non-level playing field.

[DrWatson]

Just like the invitation only ComicLink tea parties.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Just like the invitation only ComicLink tea parties.

 

Here's Jason serving up the buffet...

 

 

[Sal]

 

But those with the details of the proxy bids don't have to number more than a handful. Two or three would do the trick nicely and with the culture allowing employees to bid on auctions, they'd fit right in.

 

Additionally, employees are allowed to auction their own books off...and bid on them, I'm assuming.

 

You're getting into conspiracy theory territory here. There's nothing that can be made to counter-argue a hidden group of two or three people working in concert to defraud thousands of people for a lengthy period of time knowing that if any one of them gets caught, they may be facing jail time.

 

 

Bob, I agree that is the case. I don't know if you are able to visit Heritage and view items up for auction in a Signature auction. That being neither here nor there, as what you're arguing for is an ideal situation - everyone having equal access to the books - and not a terribly realistic one. Is there another auction format wherein there aren't inherent advantages (gamed or otherwise) for someone?

 

 

Rick, if you're bidding on highly desirable items, then it's not at all surprising that your anecdotal example would happen. I've had bids in at Heritage that weren't ever matched in the entire auction, bids that were placed late and not bumped, bids that were placed early and nearly immediately outstripped. All of these examples seem pretty consistent with a giant auction house that does bang-up business and who has access to thousands of potential bidders each auction.

[DrWatson]

I guess technically, there isn't anything wrong with these previews. However, perhaps these attendees should only bid amongst themselves and not open the auction up to non-attendees. I wonder what the realized prices would be then?

[Sal]

Truthfully, I find the potential for shenanigans and worse to be higher with ComicLink than I do Heritage, until someone gives me evidence to support a change of mind.

 

[Transplant]

Just like the invitation only ComicLink tea parties.

 

Here's Jason serving up the buffet...

There was no tabouleh when I was there.

 

 

Um...I mean .....nevermind.

[Silver]

I think there is more than human shill bidding to consider. What about having your computer system outbit someone at the 1 sec or less point if the current winning bid is considered too low? Just set it in your software so you automatically win it for what your perceive to be a price you can profit on, not allowing the bidder to win the book.Nothing illega therel. Plus, we never know who owns a book. The auction house can buy and sell themselves. Again nothing illegal. Unethical?

 

You guys keep talking about shills, I am an IT guy and I think their computer systems are more of a threat to your winning bid than a human bidder.

[VintageComics]

Well, I'll play Devil's Advocate, and defend Heritage, just for some perspective.

 

 

Heritage is the single largest collectibles auction house. They do what, $100 million a year (more? a lot more? certainly not less) in sales of everything from fine art, to raw gold, to Elvis memorabilia to comics. They've developed a reputation for bringing in the most money for these sort of items, a notion that is extremely valuable and would be hard to win back if fraud were discovered. An auction house that defrauds its users doesn't stick around too long...

 

What I'm hearing here is an insinuation that Heritage allows employees to bid while knowing what the max proxy bid is that they are up against. Are we talking every lot in auction, or just those above a certain monetary threshold?

 

Let's assume this is true, and they are doing it to get more buyer/seller fees as well as continue their marketability as the auction house that brings in the most $$. Well, what is the risk? The risk is that they will be found out. Is that an acceptable risk, if one were to look at it objectively? Can we really say that Heritage is prepared to punt all that they've built up over the years in order to scratch out a few extra tens of thousands of dollars on comic-book sales?

 

 

It would be really easy to set up a system by which employees cannot see the proxy bids of us plebes. It would be even easier to make employees sign an agreement preventing them from bidding on items they know the proxy bids for. It would be monumentally stupid for them to bump up a copy of Boy Comics for the purpose of dragging in a few hundred extra dollars for their consignor.

 

Sal, strong points.

 

 

[VintageComics]

I think there is more than human shill bidding to consider. What about having your computer system outbit someone at the 1 sec or less point if the current winning bid is considered too low? Just set it in your software so you automatically win it for what your perceive to be a price you can profit on, not allowing the bidder to win the book.Nothing illega therel. Plus, we never know who owns a book. The auction house can buy and sell themselves. Again nothing illegal. Unethical?

 

You guys keep talking about shills, I am an IT guy and I think their computer systems are more of a threat to your winning bid than a human bidder.

 

 

Another thing to consider is that we always talk about all the high record breaking prices but we often hear how board members here get a book "for a steal" from an auction house. It happens to both Comiclink and Heritage and Comiconnect auctions. It actually happens a lot. Why don't we discuss those?

 

If books are selling above and below FMV, and many of you believe shill bidding by certain employees is happening (and I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just trying to balance the discussion) then why are these books not bid up? Why doesn't Heritage bid up the books they are losing their shirts on by either taking advantage of software or employee options?

 

We're talking Silver Age, Golden Age...everything.

 

Anyhow, just something to think about.

 

 

R.

 

 

[Doc Joe]

I have had insanely suspicious circumstances where a book I was bidding on went up to just under my bid in the last few moments. Followed almost immediately by a personal congratulatory email from the auction group.

 

Do I want to say where this was, no, not really. Becuase I cant prove anythiing, I am just suspicious. Have I seen books in the same company that went for much less than they should have, absolutely.

 

At HA, in the same auction I got a book that was way under what it should have been at. Even the auctioneer, was like "really? no one else?" while another book hit my maximum bid.

 

I think that you are right if it was ever revealed then that place would be finished.

 

I do think that the various comic companies could do more to indicate who the winning and underbidder are. Maybe they could just be revealed to each other.

 

But these consipracy theories are like suspecting the government is up to stuff, while at the same time thinking they are completely incompentent, you cant have it both ways.

 

 

[Doc Joe]

ALSO for those of us who dont know who everyone is, I think if you are dealer or employed by one that should be indicated on the boards.

 

Anyone want to put together a list of boardies who are dealers? Not the Dales etc who clearly sell, but people employed by Metropolis/Clinik/HA etc

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

I have had insanely suspicious circumstances where a book I was bidding on went up to just under my bid in the last few moments. Followed almost immediately by a personal congratulatory email from the auction group.

 

Well the congratulatory email is automated just like on eBay so that is kind of irrelevant.

 

As for being bid up to your limit, well for anyone who bids on auctions there are many times when you are not only bid up to your max but also outbid by a few dollars as well whether it be with an auction house or on eBay. It happens in both directions mainly because people think alike and know roughly what an item is worth based on their research give or take a few dollars.

 

Again, I'm not saying shill bidding does not happen. All I am saying is at this point there is not enough evidence to even speculate it as it could go either way.

 

R.

 

 

[adamstrange]

 

But those with the details of the proxy bids don't have to number more than a handful. Two or three would do the trick nicely and with the culture allowing employees to bid on auctions, they'd fit right in.

 

Additionally, employees are allowed to auction their own books off...and bid on them, I'm assuming.

 

You're getting into conspiracy theory territory here. There's nothing that can be made to counter-argue a hidden group of two or three people working in concert to defraud thousands of people for a lengthy period of time knowing that if any one of them gets caught, they may be facing jail time.

 

 

Bob, I agree that is the case. I don't know if you are able to visit Heritage and view items up for auction in a Signature auction. That being neither here nor there, as what you're arguing for is an ideal situation - everyone having equal access to the books - and not a terribly realistic one. Is there another auction format wherein there aren't inherent advantages (gamed or otherwise) for someone?

 

 

Rick, if you're bidding on highly desirable items, then it's not at all surprising that your anecdotal example would happen. I've had bids in at Heritage that weren't ever matched in the entire auction, bids that were placed late and not bumped, bids that were placed early and nearly immediately outstripped. All of these examples seem pretty consistent with a giant auction house that does bang-up business and who has access to thousands of potential bidders each auction.

 

Anyone can make an appointment to see books -- and they are available for those that attend the public auctions in person. I believe public auctions like their Sig Sales generally have stricter legal requirements than apply to internet/mail-order sales. As noted, Texas may have more relaxed rules for the public auctions than other jurisdictions where they host sales (comics are a tiny, tiny fraction of their business and their coin auctions are often held onsite at major coin shows). Per their website, Heritage has sold $689,801,603 at auction and in private treaty sales over the past 12 months and I doubt whether even $20M is comics & art.

 

Heritage employees can only sell comics through Heritage but both the company and employees are allowed to bid on items that they wish to purchase. When they do this, they are not privy to inside information about the bidders or their maximum bid and they must pay for what they win. That bidding is in direct competition, of course, with other bidders but is a net benefit to the consignor on whose behalf they are acting. I did a bit of cataloging for them a few years back and they most definitely had security on their computer system to prevent access to bidding information. Given that reserves are published, I don't see an advantage to the auction house other than they have more time to go through the material than most others avail themselves of. It is easy to spend quite a few hours looking through books during their preview sessions.

[VintageComics]

Alan, where did you get this info from?

 

R.

 

 

[Sal]

If they actually did have some sort of software-driven system in place to automatically "push" bids, I'd have to think that alone would guarantee them being the stupidest criminals in the hobby.

 

Nothing like having hard evidence of fraud right there built in to the system. The FBI would have a field day if they ever seized their system(s).

 

If you're going to run a criminal conspiracy at the single most highly visible auction house in the country then it would make a lot more sense to do it off-line, coordinating things person-to-person, with a very very small group. This would take a level of coordination, intelligence and cloak-and-daggery skills that stagger the imagination