Manufactured Gold

[Red Hook]

BTW...Tim....Bullet.....did it ever occur to you that if you insist on trying to police the boards like this...we will end up re-examining every single negative thing ever posited about the hobby, CGC, the boards, Heritage, dealers, etc.?

 

Does the word "backfire" mean anything to you?

 

Look guys...you made your opinions known. You've voiced your displeasure about the way we post. We have felt the wrath of your disapproval. Feel better?

 

It's not going to change a thing. Sorry.

[Ze-man]

I can understand not wanting to be mentioned openly as a source. This hobby is very small and people can be very unforgiving. Most people don't want to discuss what goes on behind the scenes in an open forum like this.

 

I agree, I think what FT said about not being able to reveal a source applies to a good many people here. We all have had conversations that go way beyond what we post on the boards. And it is not up to us to post that conversation. It is up to the person who is the source. If they say mums the word, I have to respect that.

 

It is not that they/I dont want to be forethcoming and spill what we know to further the conversation. It is just that private conversations allow people to talk about what is really going on. But posting those conversations on the boards would be akin to comic related business suicide.

 

Most times it is not an end all piece of information that could bring the hobby to it's knees. But rather just an accumulation of information that one develops over time that allows one to see a bigger picture then is presented on these boards alone

 

Sure, I probably know things that might stir the pot. But it is not my place to post them publicly. It also lets me take many forum members at their word, because I know there is probably good reason for them to feel the way they do if they post something. They just cannot come right out and connect every dot for us.

 

 

Ze-

[Flaming_Telepath]

I remember two years ago being personally hung, drawn and quartered by the masses for suggesting the existence of an in-house book manipulation arm of CGC. I was repeatedly told that, unless I could produce a confession, signed in blood by Steve Borock, I would not be believed and I had no right to besmirch the good name of the Sarasota boys.

 

Anyone remember PCS?

 

As far as I'm concerned, carry on with the educated speculation...

And this, Nick, is why the US Constitution is drafted the way it is, in reaction to the excesses of English views of civil liberties.

 

But what the hell, let`s kill `em all and let God sort them out. So a few innocent people`s reputations or businesses are ruined in the process, it`s a small price to pay to make sure the guilty are brought to justice.

 

Get off your high horse, Tim. Your comments are a total and utter red herring and, as an aside, actually hundreds of years behind the times.

[Bullet123]

Okay. You are right. It's not "killing" the hobby.

 

Can we agree on "hurting"?

 

Causing "mild concern"?

 

 

I willing to meet on causing concern ( the level of concern depends on your stance on the subject I guess)

 

What Tim and I are more concerned with is that people believe what they read as gospel no matter if what is said has any basis in fact. "I know a guy who knows a guy who " conjecture simply is not good enough for me when it comes to talking about people's reputation's and their livelihoods. You have never seen me disagree with factual information presented on these boards. I applaud your passion and for taking a stance on what you feel is "ruining" the hobby. All I am asking is to simply present the facts and let everyone else make up their own minds.

[Viscosity-migration]

We've been dead on target more often than not, Tim. Admit it.

 

I'm still waiting for an accounting of all these "baseless accusations" you and Bull keep referring to. So far, he's alluded to the "Eating with CGC" thread.

 

Wow.

 

I think carefully about what I post. I write what I mean. And I don't make a habit of just throwing out things that pop into my head.

 

This hobby has some problems right now. The only reason CGC had a clue that Jason Ewert was up to no good was because of the work done by the boardies. I honestly think they never would have caught him. And he's still be out there carving up the books and laughing at guys like me and you.

 

I don't think the world is going to end. I don't think the hobby is in danger of getting snuffed out. I don't think every dealer is "out to get me". Duh.

 

But the problem lies with some of the bigger players in the service side of the hobby, and running a close second to that is the complacency of collectors like you.

 

I can't figure for the life of me why a clearly intelligent cat like you completely refuses to admit that there are MAJOR ethical (if not legal) problems at Heritage. That there is a rampant crack-press-clean-resub cottage industy going on. And it is killing the hobby, as well as doing unknown damage to any number of books that took a long time getting to 2006 in the condition they originally did.

 

You keep saying that you know there are things wrong...but. Screw that. You obviously don't care, that much. You have obviously decided you can stomach it. Good for you. I'm happy for you. Everyone has different standards

 

But I don't like it. I won't accept it. And I and others won't be dissuaded from discussing in an adult manner ways we think the hobby needs to be improved. And stop trying to paint us as crackpot theorists who just think this stuff up for our own amusement. Get that? Knock it off.

 

I have said this before: CGC as a business, is one of the worst outfits I've ever seen at PR. They've created most of their own problems by totally inept, ill-timed and inadequate (or non-existant) responses to major issues that have arisen in the hobby.

 

CGC itself continues to fuel speculation of all sorts by stubbornly drawing the wagons into a circle. For the umpteenth time...."Speculation arises in an informational vacuum."

 

I've been extremely responsible about what I've discussed. If you have issues with what specific individuals have posted, take it up with them! But unless you have a list of topics you think I personally have been irresponsible about and post it, then please get out of my face.

 

 

Red

 

 

Dead on balls....accurate, Red

 

 

I am truly flummoxed by the obvious "blind eye" many of you are exhibiting towards these problems, its utterly bizzare

 

I personally own HUNDREDS of CGC graded books. Many of them would STILL be HG copies, and most likely garner multiples of guide, regardless of their "slab" ...so "protecting the slab" at all costs, is frankly, unproductive in the long run, don't be so myopic.

 

Murder cases, get convictions on circumstantial evidence...so for those this applies to- would ya please, stop with the "where's the proof" [embarrassing lack of self control], that doesn't excuse, nor defeat, the stifling and inexcuseable, actions, and protocols, being produced in this hobby for profit and its ABSOLUTELY happening. Stop insulting every single collector who gives a S@#T about this hobby, by offering up insane reasoning, like..."everything is just wonderful, AND the sun rises every morning "

 

That complete ignorant view must stop now...its nothing more than hurtfully, comical and does NOTHING to help ALL of us attempt to fix this problem.

[tth2]

I'm still waiting for an accounting of all these "baseless accusations" you and Bull keep referring to. So far, he's alluded to the "Eating with CGC" thread.

 

Wow.

Every single thread accusing Heritage of buying books and cracking and resubbing them. Despite all the talk and all the examples of manipulated books, you still can`t point to a case where it`s clearly Heritage that was the buyer and resubber. If you went to court with the kind of circumstantial evidence that suffices in your little kangaroo court, you`d be thrown out on your arse by the judge.

 

Every single thread accusing Heritage or Comiclink of shilling books up in price so that the buyer ends up paying at or close to his maximum price. What evidence has ever been provided, except very loose circumstantial evidence (to which many countering examples have been provided)? As I mentioned previously, how could behavior like this be kept secret in a business with so many loose lipped people?

 

Every single thread accusing CGC of giving certain customers, particularly Heritage, of preferential treatment.

 

Shall I go on?

 

This hobby has some problems right now. The only reason CGC had a clue that Jason Ewert was up to no good was because of the work done by the boardies. I honestly think they never would have caught him. And he's still be out there carving up the books and laughing at guys like me and you.

When the f--- did I ever say we shouldn`t be vigilant? Did I not say that I had no problems with people like MasterChief and Davenport posting clear, factual examples of manipulated books? Was I not the person who posted a database of known books that had been resubbed for a different grade?

 

The boards did a great thing, and CGC were clearly found to be seriously deficient. I`ve prodded Steve Borock several times to provide info publicly on just how many Ewert books were found to be trimmed.

 

If, however, you think the lesson to be learned from that episode is that everyone should be considered to be guilty until proven innocent, then that makes me very sad. And perhaps you should go join Nick in the UK and conduct your star chambers there.

 

And stop trying to paint us as crackpot theorists who just think this stuff up for our own amusement. Get that? Knock it off.

You stop accusing people of things without clear proof, and I`ll stop trying to get you to stop it. It`s that simple.

 

If you have issues with what specific individuals have posted, take it up with them! But unless you have a list of topics you think I personally have been irresponsible about and post it, then please get out of my face.

1. Heritage being the buyer and resubber of books that were listed in their auctions. That`s what got us going in this little argument, no?

 

2. Matt Nelson doing disassembled pressing and reassembling the books in a way to avoid detection. Hell, I even suggested that we get some mystery shoppers to test Matt, to obtain proof that he does this, and you completely backed off.

 

So if I refuse to get shouted down by you and your clever little pictures, you`ll have to excuse me.

[tth2]

Sorry Tim, but I think you already have the "Touchiest and Most Sensitive" category all wrapped up!

What do you want, Brad? In all of our previous debates, and in your worst debates with Scott, at no point was anyone`s integrity questioned. And yet, in this one, you went straight for my jugular. So you`ll pardon me if I`m reacting as if you`ve really crossed the line, because you have.

[tth2]

Get off your high horse, Tim.

All the space on the high horse was monopolized by you quite some time ago, Nick. I`m just down here in the mud getting trampled all over by you.

[Red Hook]

Okay. You are right. It's not "killing" the hobby.

 

Can we agree on "hurting"?

 

Causing "mild concern"?

 

 

I willing to meet on causing concern ( the level of concern depends on your stance on the subject I guess)

 

What Tim and I are more concerned with is that people believe what they read as gospel no matter if what is said has any basis in fact. "I know a guy who knows a guy who " conjecture simply is not good enough for me when it comes to talking about people's reputation's and their livelihoods. You have never seen me disagree with factual information presented on these boards. I applaud your passion and for taking a stance on what you feel is "ruining" the hobby. All I am asking is to simply present the facts and let everyone else make up their own minds.

 

Bullet.....if you read my posts, you'll find that most of the time......I simply ask questions. Difficult questions. To me, obvious questions. I don't "make up" my source material. I carefully consider the source, as I know everyone has an agenda of some sort...major or minor. I'm sure there are folks just out to smear outfits like CGC or Heritage for some personal reason...or bad chemistry...or supposed bad treatment at the hands of....etc. etc. Or from competition. I try to factor all of that into the equation.

 

My mantra has always been..and always will be..put the facts out and let people decide for themselves.

 

I'm also willing to let people reading these thread decide if I'm totally cracked, full of it, or delusional, and then accept or reject any of my concerns. I've been posting here three years, more than enough time to reveal myself as an insufficiently_thoughtful_person (a view shared by some) or someone trying to get to the core of things. Or a combination of both. I accept that.

 

I keep my ears to the ground, read the tea leaves and, as FFB says, take everything I read, see, hear and passed on to me via e-mail, with a huge block of salt.

 

But when an accumulation of information, including past history leads me to examine a situation, I am willing to read between the lines, put two and two together, rely in part on my ability to judge character and human nature and actually come to a conclusion based on experience and rational deduction.

[Ze-man]

Lets move this outside fellas.

 

 

I think Master Chief has a few more books to post.

 

Ze-

[Sal]

[Red Hook]

Sorry Tim, but I think you already have the "Touchiest and Most Sensitive" category all wrapped up!

What do you want, Brad? In all of our previous debates, and in your worst debates with Scott, at no point was anyone`s integrity questioned. And yet, in this one, you went straight for my jugular. So you`ll pardon me if I`m reacting as if you`ve really crossed the line, because you have.

 

So...you think I'm being ridiculous for suggesting there might be the slightest connection between you mounting a huge, prolonged and frankly puzzling defense of poor little victimized Heritage and your putting up a very pricey selection of books in Heritage's November Signature Auction? No connection whatsoever?

 

Consider line crossed.

 

BTW.....I didn't say you are corrupt, evil, without merit or a fool. Just biased.

[tth2]

Sorry Tim, but I think you already have the "Touchiest and Most Sensitive" category all wrapped up!

What do you want, Brad? In all of our previous debates, and in your worst debates with Scott, at no point was anyone`s integrity questioned. And yet, in this one, you went straight for my jugular. So you`ll pardon me if I`m reacting as if you`ve really crossed the line, because you have.

 

So...you think I'm being ridiculous for suggesting there might be the slightest connection between you mounting a huge, prolonged and frankly puzzling defense of poor little victimized Heritage and your putting up a very pricey selection of books in Heritage's November Signature Auction? No connection whatsoever?

 

Consider line crossed.

 

BTW.....I didn't say you are corrupt, evil, without merit or a fool. Just biased.

Whatever, Brad. I noticed you haven`t responded to my PM yet.

 

The funny thing is from my prior observations of you, I would`ve thought you`d be one of the people sympathizing with the lawyers who were representing those being questioned by Joe McCarthy. Poor fool me. And with that, I bid you good night.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Get off your high horse, Tim.

All the space on the high horse was monopolized by you quite some time ago, Nick. I`m just down here in the mud getting trampled all over by you.

 

Me on a high horse? You are of course pulling my chain here.

 

May I remind you that I'm not the one quoting constitutions and civil liberties and centuries of tyranny.

[mica]

centuries of tyranny.

Please explain this....

[Red Hook]

I'm still waiting for an accounting of all these "baseless accusations" you and Bull keep referring to. So far, he's alluded to the "Eating with CGC" thread.

 

Wow.

Every single thread accusing Heritage of buying books and cracking and resubbing them. Despite all the talk and all the examples of manipulated books, you still can`t point to a case where it`s clearly Heritage that was the buyer and resubber. If you went to court with the kind of circumstantial evidence that suffices in your little kangaroo court, you`d be thrown out on your arse by the judge.

 

Every single thread accusing Heritage or Comiclink of shilling books up in price so that the buyer ends up paying at or close to his maximum price. What evidence has ever been provided, except very loose circumstantial evidence (to which many countering examples have been provided)? As I mentioned previously, how could behavior like this be kept secret in a business with so many loose lipped people?

 

Every single thread accusing CGC of giving certain customers, particularly Heritage, of preferential treatment.

 

Shall I go on?

 

 

And I initiated how many of those threads? And my posts accusing Heritage & Comiclink of shilling their books appeared where? And I accused CGC of giving certain customers and Heritage preferential treatment were in what thread?

 

As far as I know....no one is taking Heritage to court. Even you have admitted there are lots of "dots" to examine.

 

These questions about Heritage fall squarely under the category of "caveat emptor". I would much rather have a situation where a potential buyer is overly cautious, than not careful enough. I don't think any of this is going to make a noticeable dent in Heritage's bottom line...do you?

 

I'm more concerned that any potential participant in any of Heritage's auction know exactly what concerns are out there and provided with a full range of the opinions on the situation, make their own INFORMED decision to play ball with them or not.

[Red Hook]

Whatever, Brad. I noticed you haven`t responded to my PM yet.

 

Anything I have to say to you on this topic I'm willing to say in public and for the record.

[Viscosity-migration]

centuries of tyranny.

Please explain this....

 

Yeah, really

 

 

i'll assume he means the British Empire...of his homelands past

[Flaming_Telepath]

And this, Nick, is why the US Constitution is drafted the way it is, in reaction to the excesses of English views of civil liberties.

 

This is what I was responding to.

[Red Hook]

Tim: I`m just down here in the mud getting trampled all over by you.

 

Heck....it reminds me of....a song!

 

 

 

Well, I lay my head on the railroad track

Waitin on the double e

But the train dont run through here no more

Poor, poor pitiful me!

 

(Chorus)

Poor, poor pitiful me!

Poor, poor pitiful me!

Oh, these boys wont let me be

Lord have mercy on me!

Woe, woe is me!

 

Well, I met a man out in hollywood

And I aint namin names

But he really worked me over good

Just like jesse james

 

Yes, he really worked me over good

He was a credit to his gender

He put me through some changes

Lord, sorta like a waring blender

 

(repeat chorus)

 

Well, I met a boy in the vieux-carres

Down in yokahoma

He picked me up and he threw me down

Sayin, please dont hurt me, mama

 

(repeat chorus)

 

Poor, poor pitiful me!

Poor, poor pitiful me...