Manufactured Gold

[namisgr]

I'm with Brad on this one - the crack/press/resubmit game has been going on for quite some time, and by many more than one well-known dealer or collector. Lauterbach is a good guess in the present case, since he sells most of his stock via C-link, lives very close to the Blazing one, and is known to press books to improve their CGC grades.

 

I've weighed in already with my view that I believe the purchase/crack/press/resub/re-auction dance is done with great frequency by Heritage.

 

Moral? If you don't like buying high grade books that may have been pressed, then do not do business with Comiclink, Matt Nelson, Lauterbach, Pedigree and the other dealers and auctioneers that refuse of their own volition to disclose non-disassembly cleaning and/or pressing.

[Matt Nelson]

I'm with Brad on this one - the crack/press/resubmit game has been going on for quite some time, and by many more than one well-known dealer or collector. Lauterbach is a good guess in the present case, since he sells most of his stock via C-link, lives very close to the Blazing one, and is known to press books to improve their CGC grades.

 

I've weighed in already with my view that I believe the purchase/crack/press/resub/re-auction dance is done with great frequency by Heritage.

 

Moral? If you don't like buying high grade books that may have been pressed, then do not do business with Comiclink, Matt Nelson, Lauterbach, Pedigree and the other dealers and auctioneers that refuse of their own volition to disclose non-disassembly cleaning and/or pressing.

 

Wow, this stuff is blowing my mind. Do you seriously think this list of dealers who do not openly disclose pressing is comprehensive? It's fall far short. I think you're grossly underestimating how many people, both collectors and dealers, are involved in the crackout game. These people you list are very visible because they mainly operate through the internet, and it's all there for everyone to see. There are so many other people out there buying and selling books that you're not taking into consideration.

 

Bob, I want to ask if you were aware of pressing when you consigned your books to Storms. And if you were, what prompted your decision not to have the books checked out?

[skybolt]

Moral? If you don't like buying high grade books that may have been pressed, then do not do business with Comiclink, Matt Nelson, Lauterbach, Pedigree and the other dealers and auctioneers that refuse of their own volition to disclose non-disassembly cleaning and/or pressing.

 

The problem is that the average Ebay seller or any of the other major dealers could have purchased their books from the sellers you listed above. For instance, I hadn't purchased any books from a Heritage Auction until 2005. However, after checking their image archive I found a dozen of my high end books that were originally purchased on Ebay in 2003, on their website. I've also paid extra for certain books purchased at Metro only to find out that I could've gotten the exact same book cheaper if I had bid on the original Heritage Auction myself. Unless someone is going after books worth less than $100 or getting them from an original owner, the whole damn system could be tainted.

[esquirecomics]

I'm with Brad on this one - the crack/press/resubmit game has been going on for quite some time, and by many more than one well-known dealer or collector. Lauterbach is a good guess in the present case, since he sells most of his stock via C-link, lives very close to the Blazing one, and is known to press books to improve their CGC grades.

 

I've weighed in already with my view that I believe the purchase/crack/press/resub/re-auction dance is done with great frequency by Heritage.

 

Moral? If you don't like buying high grade books that may have been pressed, then do not do business with Comiclink, Matt Nelson, Lauterbach, Pedigree and the other dealers and auctioneers that refuse of their own volition to disclose non-disassembly cleaning and/or pressing.

 

Wow, this stuff is blowing my mind. Do you seriously think this list of dealers who do not openly disclose pressing is comprehensive? It's fall far short. I think you're grossly underestimating how many people, both collectors and dealers, are involved in the crackout game. These people you list are very visible because they mainly operate through the internet, and it's all there for everyone to see. There are so many other people out there buying and selling books that you're not taking into consideration.

 

I don't see where he limits himself to only those he named above as individuals who allegedly engage in undisclosed manipulation of books. In fact, his language implicitly, if not explicitly, acknowledges the list is broader.

 

In any event, it does not matter if the list he cited is comprehensive or limited in nature. What is imperative is that anytime someone identifies an individual as engaging in whatever type of conduct is at issue that such characterization or allegation is accurate.

 

If the list is accurate than those engaging in whatever conduct might be at issue have no basis to complain and if there are consequences from those actions, so be it. Right?

 

And I am not talking about ethics or illegalities here in the slightest, nor even the question of morality. Let's look at it plain and simple. The RNC recently ran a television ad against Congressman Harold Ford as part of the Tennessee Senate race. The obvious objective was to support the *spoon* (what the heck, the boards won't let me write Rep - bublican? ) candidate. It likely had the opposite effect and led people to Congressman Ford rather than against him. Actions. Consequences.

 

By the way Matt, if you wish to add names to the list so that the appropriate individuals who are not as visible are taken into consideration, I am sure everyone here would be most grateful to you.

[qualitycomix]

I'm with Brad on this one - the crack/press/resubmit game has been going on for quite some time, and by many more than one well-known dealer or collector. Lauterbach is a good guess in the present case, since he sells most of his stock via C-link, lives very close to the Blazing one, and is known to press books to improve their CGC grades.

 

I've weighed in already with my view that I believe the purchase/crack/press/resub/re-auction dance is done with great frequency by Heritage.

 

Moral? If you don't like buying high grade books that may have been pressed, then do not do business with Comiclink, Matt Nelson, Lauterbach, Pedigree and the other dealers and auctioneers that refuse of their own volition to disclose non-disassembly cleaning and/or pressing.

 

Wow, this stuff is blowing my mind. Do you seriously think this list of dealers who do not openly disclose pressing is comprehensive? It's fall far short. I think you're grossly underestimating how many people, both collectors and dealers, are involved in the crackout game. These people you list are very visible because they mainly operate through the internet, and it's all there for everyone to see. There are so many other people out there buying and selling books that you're not taking into consideration.

 

Bob, I want to ask if you were aware of pressing when you consigned your books to Storms. And if you were, what prompted your decision not to have the books checked out?

 

I guess since everybody's doing it (or not doing it, in this case), it must be ok then. Is that your argument?

[Sal]

Wow, this stuff is blowing my mind. Do you seriously think this list of dealers who do not openly disclose pressing is comprehensive? It's fall far short. I think you're grossly underestimating how many people, both collectors and dealers, are involved in the crackout game. These people you list are very visible because they mainly operate through the internet, and it's all there for everyone to see. There are so many other people out there buying and selling books that you're not taking into consideration.

 

no offense, but you seem to be grossly underestimating how much this "game" bothers people once they are made aware of it.

 

i suspect most people don't care because most people have no freaking idea just what is going on

[Matt Nelson]

I'm with Brad on this one - the crack/press/resubmit game has been going on for quite some time, and by many more than one well-known dealer or collector. Lauterbach is a good guess in the present case, since he sells most of his stock via C-link, lives very close to the Blazing one, and is known to press books to improve their CGC grades.

 

I've weighed in already with my view that I believe the purchase/crack/press/resub/re-auction dance is done with great frequency by Heritage.

 

Moral? If you don't like buying high grade books that may have been pressed, then do not do business with Comiclink, Matt Nelson, Lauterbach, Pedigree and the other dealers and auctioneers that refuse of their own volition to disclose non-disassembly cleaning and/or pressing.

 

Wow, this stuff is blowing my mind. Do you seriously think this list of dealers who do not openly disclose pressing is comprehensive? It's fall far short. I think you're grossly underestimating how many people, both collectors and dealers, are involved in the crackout game. These people you list are very visible because they mainly operate through the internet, and it's all there for everyone to see. There are so many other people out there buying and selling books that you're not taking into consideration.

 

I don't see where he limits himself to only those he named above as individuals who allegedly engage in undisclosed manipulation of books. In fact, his language implicitly, if not explicitly, acknowledges the list is broader.

 

In any event, it does not matter if the list he cited is comprehensive or limited in nature. What is imperative is that anytime someone identifies an individual as engaging in whatever type of conduct is at issue that such characterization or allegation is accurate.

 

If the list is accurate than those engaging in whatever conduct might be at issue have no basis to complain and if there are consequences from those actions, so be it. Right?

 

And I am not talking about ethics or illegalities here in the slightest, nor even the question of morality. Let's look at it plain and simple. The RNC recently ran a television ad against Congressman Harold Ford as part of the Tennessee Senate race. The obvious objective was to support the *spoon* (what the heck, the boards won't let me write Rep - bublican? ) candidate. It likely had the opposite effect and led people to Congressman Ford rather than against him. Actions. Consequences.

 

By the way Matt, if you wish to add names to the list so that the appropriate individuals who are not as visible are taken into consideration, I am sure everyone here would be most grateful to you.

 

I think you're taking his quote too literally. The point I'm making is that, if someone plans to avoid dealers who may sell pressed books, then that person will run out of people to buy from.

 

The whole crux of your arguement up to this point has been that pressed books are identifiable, or that willing disclosure will assure all pressed books in one's inventory will cover the bases. And this has been proven not to be possible.

 

Furthermore, Bob is the seller here, not the buyer. If the buyer has an issue, let him speak up. Otherwise, this is an issue from the other end of the transaction which has different implications. If Bob was aware of pressing, but chose not to do so because of his own reasons, he cannot get angry because someone bought books from Storms' inventory and got upgrades.

 

What if the person who bought these books was not from the "axis of evil," but rather some innocent collector? Does that change things?

[infinite_comics-migration]

I'm with Brad on this one - the crack/press/resubmit game has been going on for quite some time, and by many more than one well-known dealer or collector. Lauterbach is a good guess in the present case, since he sells most of his stock via C-link, lives very close to the Blazing one, and is known to press books to improve their CGC grades.

 

I've weighed in already with my view that I believe the purchase/crack/press/resub/re-auction dance is done with great frequency by Heritage.

 

Moral? If you don't like buying high grade books that may have been pressed, then do not do business with Comiclink, Matt Nelson, Lauterbach, Pedigree and the other dealers and auctioneers that refuse of their own volition to disclose non-disassembly cleaning and/or pressing.

 

Wow, this stuff is blowing my mind. Do you seriously think this list of dealers who do not openly disclose pressing is comprehensive? It falls far short.

 

Please enlighten us!

[Matt Nelson]

I'm with Brad on this one - the crack/press/resubmit game has been going on for quite some time, and by many more than one well-known dealer or collector. Lauterbach is a good guess in the present case, since he sells most of his stock via C-link, lives very close to the Blazing one, and is known to press books to improve their CGC grades.

 

I've weighed in already with my view that I believe the purchase/crack/press/resub/re-auction dance is done with great frequency by Heritage.

 

Moral? If you don't like buying high grade books that may have been pressed, then do not do business with Comiclink, Matt Nelson, Lauterbach, Pedigree and the other dealers and auctioneers that refuse of their own volition to disclose non-disassembly cleaning and/or pressing.

 

Wow, this stuff is blowing my mind. Do you seriously think this list of dealers who do not openly disclose pressing is comprehensive? It's fall far short. I think you're grossly underestimating how many people, both collectors and dealers, are involved in the crackout game. These people you list are very visible because they mainly operate through the internet, and it's all there for everyone to see. There are so many other people out there buying and selling books that you're not taking into consideration.

 

Bob, I want to ask if you were aware of pressing when you consigned your books to Storms. And if you were, what prompted your decision not to have the books checked out?

 

I guess since everybody's doing it (or not doing it, in this case), it must be ok then. Is that your argument?

 

It's the same argument made by people who DON'T do it that it's NOT okay.

[Matt Nelson]

Wow, this stuff is blowing my mind. Do you seriously think this list of dealers who do not openly disclose pressing is comprehensive? It's fall far short. I think you're grossly underestimating how many people, both collectors and dealers, are involved in the crackout game. These people you list are very visible because they mainly operate through the internet, and it's all there for everyone to see. There are so many other people out there buying and selling books that you're not taking into consideration.

 

no offense, but you seem to be grossly underestimating how much this "game" bothers people once they are made aware of it.

 

i suspect most people don't care because most people have no freaking idea just what is going on

 

Why do you think I'm grossly underestimating how much it bother's people? What are you basing this on? I think I have a pretty good view of people's perception of pressing from where I sit, and I wholeheartedly disagree.

 

Way more people know about pressing today than a year ago, thanks in part to the boards, Scoop, GPA, and other outlets. Where is this groundswell that is talked about? How much more does the word have to be spread before you acquiesce?

[Davenport]

Wow, this stuff is blowing my mind. Do you seriously think this list of dealers who do not openly disclose pressing is comprehensive? It's fall far short. I think you're grossly underestimating how many people, both collectors and dealers, are involved in the crackout game.

And an earlier post about Ewert's trims...

 

And be aware that trimming has been going on forever. A couple of restorers even used it as part of their process in the '70s and early '80s before people decided it was a bad thing for the books. Jason's number of trimmed books is tiny compared to what else is out there.

 

So at one point re-trimming was a restoration technique, but became "a bad thing for the books"... and today it's roundly despised for upgrade manipulations.

 

What seems to be getting lost is that maybe "people" could decide at some point undisclosed re-pressing techniques are "a bad thing for the books" as well. In the meantime it's becoming impossible to tell the rare hg survivor from yesterday's benchworked beauty.

[Matt Nelson]

Wow, this stuff is blowing my mind. Do you seriously think this list of dealers who do not openly disclose pressing is comprehensive? It's fall far short. I think you're grossly underestimating how many people, both collectors and dealers, are involved in the crackout game.

And an earlier post about Ewert's trims...

 

And be aware that trimming has been going on forever. A couple of restorers even used it as part of their process in the '70s and early '80s before people decided it was a bad thing for the books. Jason's number of trimmed books is tiny compared to what else is out there.

 

So at one point re-trimming was a restoration technique, but became "a bad thing for the books"... and today it's roundly despised for upgrade manipulations.

 

What seems to be getting lost is that maybe "people" could decide at some point undisclosed re-pressing techniques are "a bad thing for the books" as well. In the meantime it's becoming impossible to tell the rare hg survivor from yesterday's benchworked beauty.

 

I don't think there is nearly as much gray area for trimming as pressing. I'm sure if the practice of trimming was put under a microscope back then, the way pressing is now, it would have been shut down instantly.

[Sal]

Wow, this stuff is blowing my mind. Do you seriously think this list of dealers who do not openly disclose pressing is comprehensive? It's fall far short. I think you're grossly underestimating how many people, both collectors and dealers, are involved in the crackout game. These people you list are very visible because they mainly operate through the internet, and it's all there for everyone to see. There are so many other people out there buying and selling books that you're not taking into consideration.

 

no offense, but you seem to be grossly underestimating how much this "game" bothers people once they are made aware of it.

 

i suspect most people don't care because most people have no freaking idea just what is going on

 

Why do you think I'm grossly underestimating how much it bother's people? What are you basing this on? I think I have a pretty good view of people's perception of pressing from where I sit, and I wholeheartedly disagree.

 

Way more people know about pressing today than a year ago, thanks in part to the boards, Scoop, GPA, and other outlets. Where is this groundswell that is talked about? How much more does the word have to be spread before you acquiesce?

 

if people aren't bothered by it, then why are the majority of dealers who do work (pressing) on books unwilling to disclose same?

 

apologies if this feels like a tu quoque direction of questioning

[mica]

They're just shy and bashful.

[Matt Nelson]

Moral? If you don't like buying high grade books that may have been pressed, then do not do business with Comiclink, Matt Nelson, Lauterbach, Pedigree and the other dealers and auctioneers that refuse of their own volition to disclose non-disassembly cleaning and/or pressing.

 

The problem is that the average Ebay seller or any of the other major dealers could have purchased their books from the sellers you listed above. For instance, I hadn't purchased any books from a Heritage Auction until 2005. However, after checking their image archive I found a dozen of my high end books that were originally purchased on Ebay in 2003, on their website. I've also paid extra for certain books purchased at Metro only to find out that I could've gotten the exact same book cheaper if I had bid on the original Heritage Auction myself. Unless someone is going after books worth less than $100 or getting them from an original owner, the whole damn system could be tainted.

 

Do you mean that all of these books you bought were upgraded? Or that you paid more for the same grades?

[Matt Nelson]

Wow, this stuff is blowing my mind. Do you seriously think this list of dealers who do not openly disclose pressing is comprehensive? It's fall far short. I think you're grossly underestimating how many people, both collectors and dealers, are involved in the crackout game. These people you list are very visible because they mainly operate through the internet, and it's all there for everyone to see. There are so many other people out there buying and selling books that you're not taking into consideration.

 

no offense, but you seem to be grossly underestimating how much this "game" bothers people once they are made aware of it.

 

i suspect most people don't care because most people have no freaking idea just what is going on

 

Why do you think I'm grossly underestimating how much it bother's people? What are you basing this on? I think I have a pretty good view of people's perception of pressing from where I sit, and I wholeheartedly disagree.

 

Way more people know about pressing today than a year ago, thanks in part to the boards, Scoop, GPA, and other outlets. Where is this groundswell that is talked about? How much more does the word have to be spread before you acquiesce?

 

if people aren't bothered by it, then why are the majority of dealers who do work (pressing) on books unwilling to disclose same?

 

apologies if this feels like a tu quoque direction of questioning

 

A very simple answer. They don't consider pressing to be restoration.

[Red Hook]

You mean the guys benefiting from pressing and the non-disclosure of it don't consider it restoration. I see a fairly clear line of division between buyers and sellers on this area. A couple of exceptions, but still.....

 

 

also, got the label, Matt. Thanks.

[Sal]

Wow, this stuff is blowing my mind. Do you seriously think this list of dealers who do not openly disclose pressing is comprehensive? It's fall far short. I think you're grossly underestimating how many people, both collectors and dealers, are involved in the crackout game. These people you list are very visible because they mainly operate through the internet, and it's all there for everyone to see. There are so many other people out there buying and selling books that you're not taking into consideration.

 

no offense, but you seem to be grossly underestimating how much this "game" bothers people once they are made aware of it.

 

i suspect most people don't care because most people have no freaking idea just what is going on

 

Why do you think I'm grossly underestimating how much it bother's people? What are you basing this on? I think I have a pretty good view of people's perception of pressing from where I sit, and I wholeheartedly disagree.

 

Way more people know about pressing today than a year ago, thanks in part to the boards, Scoop, GPA, and other outlets. Where is this groundswell that is talked about? How much more does the word have to be spread before you acquiesce?

 

if people aren't bothered by it, then why are the majority of dealers who do work (pressing) on books unwilling to disclose same?

 

apologies if this feels like a tu quoque direction of questioning

 

A very simple answer. They don't consider pressing to be restoration.

 

wait wait wait wait. i never said anything about restoration.

 

if it's not restoration, if it is...doesn't matter one bit to me. truthfully, i could not care less one way or the other.

 

but it still needs to be disclosed. unless there's a stigma about pressing that for some reason, even though it's not 'restoration' still exists anyways, which is essentially a fancy way of dealers having their cake and eating it, too

[Matt Nelson]

You mean the guys benefiting from pressing and the non-disclosure of it don't consider it restoration. I see a fairly clear line of division between buyers and sellers on this area. A couple of exceptions, but still.....

 

 

also, got the label, Matt. Thanks.

 

No, that's not what I mean at all. Everyone I know that presses has no problem buying a pressed book. To me, that makes the system work. If they only sold pressed books, and refused the buy them, then you'd be right.

 

Great on the label! You'll send it to CGC, right?

[qualitycomix]

A very simple answer. They don't consider pressing to be restoration.

 

Based on your experience in restoration, do you consider things like erasure to be restoration?

 

If not, why?

 

If so, then would you disclose even if in a CGC holder?