Manufactured Gold

[Davenport]

Full Disclosure. End of story.

 

Reasonable people can debate whether various alterations are "restoration" on not. But doesn't "disclosure" cover most products, not just certified comics?

 

There's not much "debate" on federal government consumer info sites: OnguardOnline.gov

 

For "Internet Auctions" their description of "types of fraud" includes: "fail to disclose all relevant information about a product or terms of the sale."

 

And for sellers "advertising your product" it includes: "when describing your item and it's condition, state whether it's new, used, or reconditioned."

 

Doesn't that cover consumers who can't tell from viewing package labeling whether a certified comic has been "reconditioned" to appear higher grade/higher value?

[ciorac]

Yeah, does anyone else notice that my diehard fans are all posting right now! Every single one of them! Talk about the deck stacked against me....yikes

 

Hey, speaking of which, where's my fav fan, Mark???

 

Matt, for what its worth I wouldn't take any of it personally. I don't think there's anybody on this board hoping that you fail at anything.

 

I think anyone who can look at this from an unbiased viewpoint will admit that you have more knowledge about comic books than the vast majority of people on this message board. Also, I think it is obvious that you have a passion for the hobby beyond just the money. And this is something that can not be said about many dealers. (I think this is evidenced by all the work you have put in to researching all the different pedigrees.. not just for your book but even the information you put on your website going way back)

 

But for some people, the clean/press/resubmit game that is being played can be very frustrating. At some point, it was decided that in our hobby, it is dishonest and frowned upon to not disclose resto work that has been done. (Whether that work is a small dot of color touch, or whether the entire book has work done to it.) I'm sure you yourself, would never color touch a book and then try to sell it as unrestored.

 

I realize that pressing is not currently considered by CGC to be restoration. But some people (the percentage of whom is clearly up for debate) do consider pressing to be restoration and want to know if a book has been pressed prior to purchase. Remember, there was a point in time where restoration did not affect the value of a book. (And from what I've been told there was even a point in time where really nicely restored books would sell for a premium over unrestored books because they looked better) Can anyone guarantee that in 30 years pressed books won't be frowned upon in the same way that restored books are frowned upon today, knowing that peoples' opinions can change? (What if at some point in the future it somehow becomes possible to detect which books have been pressed and which haven't?)

 

There are people in this hobby, who for whatever reason, at some point in time decided they do not want to own books that have been messed with in any way. (whether it be color touch, tear seals, cleaning, pressing, whatever.. they only want to own 100% original untouched books) Is it really fair to say to these people... "tough.. thats not the way things are anymore. I don't care how long you have been collecting, or how passionate you are about the hobby. If you only want to buy completely untouched books, there is no longer a place for you in the hobby, and you'd better stop collecting immediately"?

 

I think what is frustrating is that all of the dealers who routinely have books pressed claim that they shouldn't have to disclose it, and their reasoning is usually something along the lines of "I don't need to disclose it because nobody cares anyway". And yet.. the truth is, if people didn't care, if pressed books weren't worth less than non-pressed books, there would be no reason for these dealers not to disclose everything to the "small minority" of people that do care. It really seems like one of the main reasons dealers choose not to disclose when books have been pressed, is because whether they will admit it or not, they know that people do care, and that disclosing this information will affect what books will sell for. (And if this is true, how fair is it to not disclose the information, then sell a book to someone who thinks the book is better than it is, and watch the buyer lose money when they try to sell it?)

 

Everybody in the hobby has a different threshold of what they personally find acceptable before considering a book to be restored. (I personally couldn't care less if people want to press 9.6 bronze age books into 9.8 bronze age books. I think there are so many of those books out there that it really doesn't make a difference. I do however, have a problem when an 8.5 pedigreed Sensation 1 is cleaned and pressed into a 9.2 non-pedigreed sensation 1.) I personally think pressing is going to drastically change the high grade GA market and have started selling my collection accordingly. Which is quite depressing for me actually, as I really enjoyed owning these books.

 

None of these thoughts are directed at you personally by the way Matt, because I know you are just playing by the rules as they currently exist in the hobby today. (And even go one step beyond some dealers, by offering to disclose whether or not a book has been pressed, if someone asks) I think the only reason some negativity has been thrown your way, is that people are upset and you are the only pro-pressing dealer with the guts to argue your point on these message boards. Personally, I think that if someone from Heritage or Comiclink had the guts to come onto these boards and debate the subject of pressing, they'd get attacked much worse than you.

 

 

Great post filter. Well said.

 

Filter is a great man! So great in fact, I hope to marry him someday!

 

[Lazyboy]

Filter is a great man! So great in fact, I hope to marry him someday!

 

Followed by a divorce where you get half his books?

[Bronty]

 

Filter is a great man! So great in fact, I hope to marry him someday!

 

 

Err... is there a bottle of crown beside you right now Bill?

[Red Hook]

Love is a many-splendoured thing.

[Aman619]

in all its forms....specially in NJ I guess!

[Red Hook]

 

You are right Red. Absolutely right. But we can holler and yell and complain all we want, but until the rules change we just gotta deal with it. We can't demand Matt do anything other than what he does, and does very well. In his eyes, I assume, he is just making hay while the sun is shining. Some day it will cloud up again and he will adapt and find an alternative income to replace it.

 

It's not about Matt, or his next income stream. It's not about getting his acquiesence. It's not about blaming him for the current situation. And it's not about accepting things as they are. Otherwise I'd suggest we immediately form a Passives Anonymous support group.

 

Things are shifting. I totally believe it. As I've noted before...two years ago we were trying to convince boardmembers that pressing was being practiced beyond the occasional isolated instance. We now know it's become standard operating procedure for certain types of books. I think many collectors and current supporters of CGC realize the honeymoon period is over, and are demanding more from their grading company.

 

I personally look forward to pursuing this issue for years to come. I look forward to convincing these guys that for the long term health of the hobby and for the long term health of their bank accounts....disclosure is the only way to go. It doesn't matter if it takes one, two, five or ten years to change things. It will happen.

 

I believe the rules won't change unless we continue to holler and yell. I believe there will still be a huge profit margin available to dealers who choose to disclose. I'm curious to see which ones will pass up the short term golden egg and start thinking about the hobby's health five, ten and twenty years down the line.

[batman_fan]

 

You are right Red. Absolutely right. But we can holler and yell and complain all we want, but until the rules change we just gotta deal with it. We can't demand Matt do anything other than what he does, and does very well. In his eyes, I assume, he is just making hay while the sun is shining. Some day it will cloud up again and he will adapt and find an alternative income to replace it.

 

It's not about Matt, or his next income stream. It's not about getting his acquiesence. It's not about blaming him for the current situation. And it's not about accepting things as they are. Otherwise I'd suggest we immediately form a Passives Anonymous support group.

 

Things are shifting. I totally believe it. As I've noted before...two years ago we were trying to convince boardmembers that pressing was being practiced beyond the occasional isolated instance. We now know it's become standard operating procedure for certain types of books. I think many collectors and current supporters of CGC realize the honeymoon period is over, and are demanding more from their grading company.

 

I personally look forward to pursuing this issue for years to come. I look forward to convincing these guys that for the long term health of the hobby and for the long term health of their bank accounts....disclosure is the only way to go. It doesn't matter if it takes one, two, five or ten years to change things. It will happen.

 

I believe the rules won't change unless we continue to holler and yell. I believe there will still be a huge profit margin available to dealers who choose to disclose. I'm curious to see which ones will pass up the short term golden egg and start thinking about the hobby's health five, ten and twenty years down the line.

 

Brad,

 

You are 100% correct. I also hope the dealers and CGC that believe this manipulation for dollars is good for the hobby will come to relaize it isn't. Look at me, I have been collecting for 34 years. I am on month 4 of no buying, thats right none. This year I had planned on spending ~20k total on comics. I stopped at 11k and have no plans on buying ANYTHING. I have personally had books pressed, usually (actually always) associated with other work. I cannot even begin to imagine pressing a high grade (and by high grade I mean 7.0) pressed just to remove a crease. Why? Just because CGC downgrades it a ton (while allowing other defects like missing pieces, etc.) doesn't mean I do. Based on Filter's post looks like he is going further, selling off stuff. I am not at that point yet, but who knows ... Now granted, me not buying means nothing to the hobby, but if the trend continues ...

 

Greg

[tth2]

It's not about Matt, or his next income stream. It's not about getting his acquiesence.

Then why, for the last few pages, was there a message board equivalent of a bunch of interrogators surrounding Matt yelling "Confess! Confess!"?

[Harvey Dude]

I also hope the dealers and CGC that believe this manipulation for dollars is good for the hobby will come to relaize it isn't. ... Now granted, me not buying means nothing to the hobby, but if the trend continues ...

 

Greg

 

I have not entirely stopped buying but my buying has slowed to a trickle. It is a shame that some individuals, who engage in the practices evidenced here, don't have the foresight to look long-term as to the impact their actions are having on the hobby. CGC needs to change some of their criteria that promotes such unethical practices.

[1koko]

In similar vein to yourself I have stopped buying expensive comics where their value is determined by their grade rather than rarity (ie very low number of comics graded/ known to be existing).

 

For example I will not buy an ASM #300 9.8 or a Hulk #181 9.6 where there are hundreds of copies of the same comic in the CGC census that could become 9.8s in the future and even further numbers yet to be graded.

[Red Hook]

 

For example I will not buy an ASM #300 9.8 or a Hulk #181 9.6 where there are hundreds of copies of the same comic in the CGC census that could become 9.8s in the future and even further numbers yet to be graded.

 

A perfect example of what I believe a growing number of collectors are feeling. The big numbers are becoming more common, so why extend yourself financially for a top or near-top census book when the population of such books will continue to grow thanks to artificial manipulation. As Matt mentioned himself, he's only one of many playing the game. Definitely takes the thrill out of the hunt for many.

 

I remember when the discussion about the status of top census books focused around whether new, previously undiscovered GA or SA collections would be found and bump up the population of highgrade books. Well, that's a minor concern compared to the aggressive massaging of existing books.

 

Remember when 9.4's were the measure of highgrade? That's been steadily changing, and it's got little to do with new discoveries. And when a new collection is revealed.... being a rational person who has been paying attention to the trends.....it's fair to assume the books have been prepped before they go to CGC for grading. It's the "no stone unturned" aka "no book unpotentialized" policy that seems to be ruling the day.

 

Red

[awe4one]

A perfect example of what I believe a growing number of collectors are feeling. The big numbers are becoming more common, so why extend yourself financially for a top or near-top census book when the population of such books will continue to grow thanks to artificial manipulation. As Matt mentioned himself, he's only one of many playing the game. Definitely takes the thrill out of the hunt.

 

I wonder where this puts the highest grade slab collectors? Unless your slab is a 9.9/10, it would seem to me stupid to lay out big $$$ knowing that either the numbers in that grade will continue to grow or even be superceded by a manipulated copy. And the quest to usurp your copy will continue until one does pass your formerly highest copy...

 

It's a crazy game...

 

Jim

[Red Hook]

If your big number is challenged....then you can try resubbing for an upgrade in page quality. Or go for books with better general eye appeal.

 

Anything to differentiate your book from the growing crowd of highenders.

[Red Hook]

Full Disclosure. End of story.

 

Reasonable people can debate whether various alterations are "restoration" on not. But doesn't "disclosure" cover most products, not just certified comics?

 

There's not much "debate" on federal government consumer info sites: OnguardOnline.gov

 

For "Internet Auctions" their description of "types of fraud" includes: "fail to disclose all relevant information about a product or terms of the sale."

 

And for sellers "advertising your product" it includes: "when describing your item and it's condition, state whether it's new, used, or reconditioned."

 

Doesn't that cover consumers who can't tell from viewing package labeling whether a certified comic has been "reconditioned" to appear higher grade/higher value?

 

Yes it does, in my opinion. Good points.

[awe4one]

If your big number is challenged....then you can try resubbing for an upgrade in page quality. Or go for books with better general eye appeal.

 

Anything to differentiate your book from the growing crowd of highenders.

 

A lot of work to be sure...kind of takes the pleasure away of collecting these don't you think?

 

And very costly considering the price you had to pay for that formerly highest graded copy. Maybe a new value category will emerge...amount of money invested in a single slabbed comic. A typical Heritage auction of the near future:

 

"This beautiful comic has cost me $XXXX over the last five years to achieve this grade. Comic has had various work accomplished to include disassembly, pressing, and cleaning by two noted resto experts, Xxxxx Xxxxx and Xxxxx Xxxxx, and resubmitted to CGC five times."

 

Of course, this assumes the seller disclosed the info upfront...

 

Jim

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

 

For example I will not buy an ASM #300 9.8 or a Hulk #181 9.6 where there are hundreds of copies of the same comic in the CGC census that could become 9.8s in the future and even further numbers yet to be graded.

 

A perfect example of what I believe a growing number of collectors are feeling. The big numbers are becoming more common, so why extend yourself financially for a top or near-top census book when the population of such books will continue to grow thanks to artificial manipulation. As Matt mentioned himself, he's only one of many playing the game. Definitely takes the thrill out of the hunt for many.

 

I remember when the discussion about the status of top census books focused around whether new, previously undiscovered GA or SA collections would be found and bump up the population of highgrade books. Well, that's a minor concern compared to the aggressive massaging of existing books.

 

Remember when 9.4's were the measure of highgrade? That's been steadily changing, and it's got little to do with new discoveries. And when a new collection is revealed.... being a rational person who has been paying attention to the trends.....it's fair to assume the books have been prepped before they go to CGC for grading. It's the "no stone unturned" aka "no book unpotentialized" policy that seems to be ruling the day.

 

Red

 

Geez, you can write so intelligently when you aren't engaged in a "you're an *spoon*! No, you're an *spoon*!" exchange with FFB or tth2.

 

Let me say, I totally fall into the above category. I've changed my collecting goals entirely from high grade Silver Age Marvels (probably the most manipulated group of books, thanks to Jason Ewert et al) to rare golden age and atomic age books with minimal census representation.

 

I also try to keep my collecting to old label books whose provenance can be traced and verified. And of course, I do the 'check the Heritage archives' before committing to any major purchase.

 

I no longer pursue high grade SA Marvels, I would much rather own a nice mid-grade run of FFs (which I can actually read, perish the thought) that can be purchased dirt cheap and spend the real money on truely rare GA that I am relatively sure hasn't been manipulated. Its sad, because I love Silver Age Marvels, but the market is so prone to manipulation that I don't feel they will hold their value in the long run. The recent Namisgr Spideys are just another example of how nothing is sacred and its all about the all mighty dollar.

 

I consider myself lucky though....I'm still in the minority of collectors who knows whats going on and gets to make a choice. There will be a day when getting out the top dollar people put into certified SA Marvels will be harder then squeezing blood from a stone.

[Red Hook]

Speaking of Nam's Spideys......I would like to add that there are a few things that are sacred. A recent purchase from Namisgr that will not be resubbed while I own it......

 

 

I recently sold a couple of Sid's Luncheonette books that I loved, (one to namisgr who I know won't be messin' with it)......and I will be keeping an interested eye out for their possible "re-emergence" in bigger numbered slabs.

 

I would like to add that my tiffs with FFB arise when we're both bored, I think. We agree on alot more than we disagree on.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Sweeeeeeeet GR Spidey... ...bsatard!

 

A sort of 'outside the box' thing...wouldn't it be cool to start building a database of books that we KNOW haven't been played with? Sid's Luncheonette books are a start, but what else could we coral to start showcasing 'unimproved' books?

 

I can see a few years down the road, when the unethical behaviour of certain parties (and nobody...NOBODY...tell me about 'those are the current rules', please) is common knowledge, and the horror has set in, that this sort of 'museum gallery' of untouched, virgin copies is drooled over....rather than the 8.5s now sitting in REALLY BIG NUMBER 9.8 Blue labels.

[Red Hook]

Unfortunately, aside from books like Harry's, you can't absolutely say that a book like the GR above wasn't pressed sometime before Bob acquired it. (Unless he knows better.) All you can say is that the likelihood that the book above has gone through multiple "manipulation events" and resubs is extremely low.

 

But I'd take my chances with a book like this.