Manufactured Gold

[mica]

And this, Nick, is why the US Constitution is drafted the way it is, in reaction to the excesses of English views of civil liberties.

 

This is what I was responding to.

Excesses can mean that a government likes too much gravy on their bisquits. His statement might be considered a jab to the good people of England.

 

However your "tyranny" comment is more than a jab ol' chap.

And I'm getting sick and tired of this kind of snide BBC wordplay.

[Red Hook]

I like it.

 

Hail Brittania!

[Norrin_Radd]

That's Rule Brittania.

[Flaming_Telepath]

However your "tyranny" comment is more than a jab ol' chap.

And I'm getting sick and tired of this kind of snide BBC wordplay.

 

As used frequently by me?

 

What the hell are you on about?

[Red Hook]

If, however, you think the lesson to be learned from that episode is that everyone should be considered to be guilty until proven innocent, then that makes me very sad. And perhaps you should go join Nick in the UK and conduct your star chambers there.

 

Your posts have been totally overloaded with inaccuracies and mispresentations. You keep lumping anyone who disagrees with you into some kind of self-hallucinated lynch mob. You keep putting words in my mouth. Knock it off.

[Red Hook]

That's Rule Brittania.

 

 

I can't hail them if I want?

 

[MasterChief]

Lets move this outside fellas.

 

 

I think Master Chief has a few more books to post.

 

Ze-

 

No, no, no... this is great stuff. Continue as is.

 

The debate reads very well and I am 100% sure there is something here for everyone. All the dialog fits perfectly well in this thread.

 

Do not stop on my part. I will post another when the time is right.

 

--MC

[Ze-man]

Why was bullets question deleted? Masking, again...?

 

Ze-

[FFB]

I remember two years ago being personally hung, drawn and quartered by the masses for suggesting the existence of an in-house book manipulation arm of CGC. I was repeatedly told that, unless I could produce a confession, signed in blood by Steve Borock, I would not be believed and I had no right to besmirch the good name of the Sarasota boys.

 

Anyone remember PCS?

 

As far as I'm concerned, carry on with the educated speculation...

 

I remember it differently. The only people being "hung, drawn, and quartered by the masses" in that thread were the boys at CGC.

[FFB]

I'll give you that as to Bronze. Silver, I don't know.

 

You could be right concerning how much Silver has been manipulated. But I see the FF #3/10, JIM #83, Hulk Ann #1, BB #28 and other SA examples over the last year or so and it makes me wonder how widespread the practice is within the genre...

 

Jim

 

What I meant is that I believe that silver age books were being pressed in significant numbers before CGC existed. There is no question that they're being pressed in significant numbers now.

[awe4one]

What I meant is that I believe that silver age books were being pressed in significant numbers before CGC existed. There is no question that they're being pressed in significant numbers now.

 

I really don't think pressing became widespread in the old label years at near the levels we've seen in the last couple. Did it happen? Sure. But the chances of getting an untouched comic, regardless of Age, in an old label slab is much greater than those in new labels in my opinion. The problem now is the resubmitters are probably actively looking for improvable comics in old labels. As the game continues, the number of old label comics will diminish...

 

On that thought, we are getting to the 7 year point that has been speculated as an ideal time to replace the microchamber paper. As we pass that point, a stigma may develop within comicdom, and maybe at CGC's urging, against the old labels. That in itself would eliminate favoritism for the old labels...

 

Jim

[FFB]

What I meant is that I believe that silver age books were being pressed in significant numbers before CGC existed. There is no question that they're being pressed in significant numbers now.

 

I really don't think pressing became widespread in the old label years at near the levels we've seen in the last couple. Did it happen? Sure. But the chances of getting an untouched comic, regardless of Age, in an old label slab is much greater than those in new labels in my opinion. The problem now is the resubmitters are probably actively looking for improvable comics in old labels. As the game continues, the number of old label comics will diminish...

 

On that thought, we are getting to the 7 year point that has been speculated as an ideal time to replace the microchamber paper. As we pass that point, a stigma may develop within comicdom, and maybe at CGC's urging, against the old labels. That in itself would eliminate favoritism for the old labels...

 

Jim

 

Maybe, but I thought that Russ' independent research into Microchamber paper showed that the paper actually retains effectiveness for significantly longer than 7 years.

[awe4one]

Maybe, but I thought that Russ' independent research into Microchamber paper showed that the paper actually retains effectiveness for significantly longer than 7 years.

 

Did CGC sign up to that? I believe the 7 year timeframe came from them...

 

I have no doubt the paper would last longer under favorable conditions. Heck, I don't think the timelines advocated for poly bags are correct based on my experience.

 

Jim

[FFB]

Maybe, but I thought that Russ' independent research into Microchamber paper showed that the paper actually retains effectiveness for significantly longer than 7 years.

 

Did CGC sign up to that? I believe the 7 year timeframe came from them...

 

No, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

I have no doubt the paper would last longer under favorable conditions. Heck, I don't think the timelines advocated for poly bags are correct based on my experience.

 

Jim

 

Yeah, I tend to agree and think the backing boards are the real culprit. There might be some minimal harm caused by a degrading polybag, but we've seen lots of comics with bright inks and white pages come out of polybags after decades. But if there is a backing board in there, acid burn city!!!

[Filter81]

I willing to meet on causing concern ( the level of concern depends on your stance on the subject I guess)

 

What Tim and I are more concerned with is that people believe what they read as gospel no matter if what is said has any basis in fact. "I know a guy who knows a guy who " conjecture simply is not good enough for me when it comes to talking about people's reputation's and their livelihoods. You have never seen me disagree with factual information presented on these boards. I applaud your passion and for taking a stance on what you feel is "ruining" the hobby. All I am asking is to simply present the facts and let everyone else make up their own minds.

 

Wow... just Wow.. Bullet, at first I wasn't even going to reply in this thread anymore.. both out of respect to the poster who started the thread, and because several of your posts have me so infuriated I don't trust myself to watch what I say.

But you seem intent on continuing with your faulty logic so fine.

 

Lets start with what you just wrote.

 

"I know a guy who knows a guy who " conjecture simply is not good enough for me when it comes to talking about people's reputation's and their livelihoods.

 

Are you KIDDING me?!?!? Where on these boards, has ANYONE, ANYWHERE tried to back up an argument with "I know a guy who knows a guy" and tried to present it as fact?! Go back and try to give me three examples... can't? ok.. try two.... how about one?!

 

Just like you have your sources, and Tim has his, well, I have mine. Some have been in this hobby for 30+ years. some used to work for Heritage. (you know.. those ex-employees that you say haven't come forward and said anything... well.. yeah.. publicly they haven't.)

The things I have been told would put ANYTHING that has been discussed in this thread so far to shame. The only reason I HAVEN'T discussed any of this prior to now is because I felt it would be irresponsible for me to even say what I have been told until I can prove it all to be true. (regardless of how credible the sources are.) The only reason I even bring this up now, is because you've got me so frustrated with your comments about people wildly presenting rumors as facts, when in reality, nothing could be further from the truth..

 

In your threads you continue to make reference to people spouting out vile, hurtful rumors and representing them as facts without any proof. Here are some quotes from your recent posts:

 

"I think it is just a black eye on the hobby to simply spout things as your version of the truth without a single shred of evidence ."

 

it is the endless speculation based on nothing factual that annoys people like myself and Tim and I am sure others.

 

When a new collector comes on the scene and reads threads like this where people cast dispersions about others without proof it sheds a bad light not only on the medium but the collectors of that medium as well.

 

It is when people go off and spew unsubstantiated venom aimed at either impuning ones integrity or reputation that it bothers me

 

These are things YOU have said in the past 48 hours. And yet, when you are asked REPEATEDLY to come up with even ONE example of people spewing rumors as fact without any proof, you were unable to do so. Not even ONE! With all of the hundreds of pages of dialog on this subject so far, if this were truly a serious concern I would think you would be able to come up with dozens if not hundreds of examples very easily. All that is being done is people are presenting facts as facts, and when something is unknown, allowing everyone to come to their own conclusions based on the facts that do exist and are known.

 

As several posters have said before, if someone reads these threads and still decides to do business with Heritage... FINE.... I have no problem with that whatsoever. But what is going on is important, and there should be a forum where people are able to discuss it.

 

Personally, I feel that much of what you have written in your posts thus far, if taken seriously would be damaging to MY reputation and credibility, as well as the reputation and credibility of many of the other posters on these boards. I feel you are doing this by trying to claim that people are spewing "unsubstantiated venom", or that people are trying to represent opinions as facts "without a single shred of evidence". And yet, you type all of this without being able to provide one single example of what you say is happening. You say what you say without any proof.... without any facts to back it up... without a smoking gun. Considering exactly what it is you are complaining about, I hope the irony of your actions is not lost on you. Normally, I wouldn't mind.. if you want to attack everything I say.. by all means.. attack away. But please be aware in the future of the hypocritical nature of your posts thus far.

 

When asked to come up with an example of someone spewing unsubstantiated venom as fact without a shred of evidence, you quoted my post below:

 

Here is one from page 3 of this thread

So, since Heritage says no employees ever bid on these auctions for resale, what exactly happens in a situation like this? Someone buys the book through Heritage as an 8.0 and thinks it looks like an 8.5 so they send it to CGC. They get the grade they want and they decide to resell it through Heritage to someone else who buys it thinking the new 8.5 looks like a 9.2. So then this second person cracks the case again and decides to send it to CGC and this time it comes back a 9.2. After it comes back from CGC as a 9.2 this person too decides to sell the book through Heritage. Then a third person buys the 9.2 through Heritage and shortly after that decides to sell the book directly to Halperin at significantly less than what he paid. Then, rather than auctioning off the book using his own multi-million dollar consignment service Halperin decides he'll have better luck consigning the book to LewisWayneGalleries on eBay?

 

How exactly does that validate your point at all.. even a little? Please give me one example of something in the above post that I am representing as a fact in the first place! What exactly am I claiming is true without proof? In fact, if the scenario above WERE true, all Heritage would be doing is auctioning off a book and doing nothing wrong.

 

The facts regarding that particular situation are:

 

1) that book was auctioned off at Heritage three times in the past three years. - FACT.

 

2) Each time the book was autioned off it was being sold as a higher CGC graded. (first an 8.0, next an 8.5, then a 9.2) - FACT

 

3) Shortly after selling as a 9.2 through Heritage, it somehow became owned by Halperin, who then decided to consign the book to LewisWayneGalleries for LESS than it just sold through Heritage for the last time around. - FACT

 

If you choose to believe Halperin & Heritage employees do not buy books in their own auctions, do not play the press/resub game, and that there is nothing shady going on. Fine. But that means, in this particular case, if Heritage didn't buy the book, there would need to be no less than three other buyers involved. The guy who bought it as an 8.0 and had it cracked out into an 8.5, the guy who bought it as an 8.5 and had it resubbed as a 9.2, and the guy who bought it as a 9.2 and then sold it to Halperin at a loss. No opinions here.. just FACTS.

 

I have to be honest with you Bullet, if we both sat down and compared your posts to mine, I think you would see that one of us has made many FACTUAL contributions to this topic, and one of us has posted a number of hurtful, unsubstantiated opinions. Why don't you go back and re-read some of my posts, then go back and re-read some of your posts, and see who did what. I think you've done a good job explaining why you feel there is no place for opinions in this discussion, and why there is no place for anything that isn't a fact that can be proven beyond all reasonable doubt. So how about using FACTS in your next post rather than "unsubstantiated venom".

 

Just so we are clear here, some of my FACTUAL contributions to this thread so far include:

 

1) pointing out that the CGC 9.2 Sensation 1 being sold by LewisWayneGalleries used to be a CGC 8.5 Sensation 1 Crowley pedigree that sold through Heritage and later had the pedigree designation removed

 

2) discussing Halperin's well-documented history of playing the crack/resub game in the collectibles market, and his well-documented history of being accused of using his ownership stake in a collectibles slabbing service to give his collectibles inflated grades, and later selling them through Heritage & Heritage affiliates at inflated prices (later being forced to pay over a million dollars in damages.)

 

3) Pointed out the contact information previously registered for LewisWayneGallery.com

 

"Registrant Contact:

Heritage Galleries

Robert Dennis (robertd@heritagegalleries.com)

+1.2147805554

Fax: none

3500 Maple Avenue, 17th Floor

Dallas, TX 75219

US"

 

and also pointed out that almost EVERY item up for sale through LewisWayneGalleries on eBay originated from Heritage.

 

4) Pointed out that Heritage employees and owners are allowed, and often do, participate in bidding in their own auctions. (Although this is something that is apparently published in small print in their catalogs, this is something many people on these boards apparently were unaware of.)

 

What FACTS have you been contributing? You CLAIM people, myself included, are spouting out rumors as facts. So why don't YOU back up what YOU say with facts for once??? I've posted on this topic extensively. Can you give me three examples of something that I represented to be a definite fact, that later could not be proven to be true? Can you give me two examples?

 

My FAVORITE comment of yours though was when you tried to say that threads like this are bad for the hobby. You want to know whats REALLY bad for the hobby? Dishonest people stealing thousands of dollars from newbie collectors.

 

The All Winners 1 listed earlier in this thread is in my opinion a good example of what I feel is wrong with this hobby. The example I am about to give you is not hypothetical, it actually happened.

 

I know someone who bought an All Winners 1 CGC 9.2 a while back, and paid over $30,000 from what I recall. A few weeks ago, a different All Winners 1 CGC 9.2 came up for sale through Heritage and sold for $23,900. The main reason that this copy sold so low in my OPINION, is that the book that sold for $23,900 was previously a CGC 8.5 that sold for less than $15,000. (Looking at the book as an 8.5, $23,900 is an outstanding price. Looking at the book as a 9.2, $23,900 is a terrible one.)

 

The owner of the first All Winners 1, the one who paid over $30,000... was recently talking to someone about selling the book. The buyer was interested in buying the book and then saw the other 9.2 sell for $23,900 and now is no longer willing to pay higher than $24,000 for the first book. Neither the buyer nor the seller had any idea of the history behind the $23,900 sale. The buyer lost interest because suddenly $30,000 seems too high to pay. Also, he saw one copy selling for over $30k, and the next one sell for over $6000 less, and suddenly the book looks like a bad investment. Well, now that $23,900 sale is now public record. So what does this other guy do if he wants to sell? Take a $6000 loss? Try to press and clean his book into a CGC 9.4 to keep up?

 

To me, this is a problem. And the solution to this problem is to make sure everybody is as informed as possible. Not to keep your mouths shut as you suggest and hope that new people entering the hobby don't find out. I feel people are getting screwed so that a few already very wealthy people can get wealthier. Sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "Lalalala" doesn't make this untrue. And I for one, will continue to point out what I feel are problems when I see them, regardless of whether or not this makes you uncomfortable.

 

Lastly, I just have to ask you bullet, what EXACTLY is your problem with this thread? I don't believe there have been ANY examples yet of people presenting speculation as fact. (And since its impossible to prove something that doesn't exist, if you feel this is happening, the burden of proof to show that it is happening is on you.)

 

But lets just say for arguments' sake that some of whats being discussed is wild, unfounded speculation. In this particular case (please don't give me some generalized example) but in THIS particular case, what is the harm?

 

Halperin admitted in a national, well-respected magazine to participating in the cracking and reslabbing collectibles game. He was investigated in the past for owning a collectibles slabbing service which he potentially used to give his collectibles higher grades which he later resold through Heritage and Heritage affiliates. The result of this investigation was that Halperin had to pay back over $1million in damages.

 

Is your worry really that someone might come along, read one of these threads and as a result think that maybe he might be cracking and resubmitting collectibles through a collectible grading service and then selling them through Heritage and Heritage affiliates? The fact that he has gotten in trouble for this before is a matter of public record, people SHOULD wonder if its happening again now. Halperin has done more damage to his reputation by defrauding people since the age of 13, then anyone on these message boards could ever do.

 

And just as an aside, as far as I know, Halperin has never produced a signed, notarized confession written in blood regarding his behavior in the comic book industry. The smoking gun here isn't one specific example, it is a pattern of behavior, that when looked at objectively as a whole paints a surprisingly clear picture of what exactly is going on. Some of what is going on, is now known and is a matter of fact. Some is still unclear and open for people to form their own opinions.

[nik]

Thanks for sharing.

 

All I can say is your post has left me speechless.

[Red Hook]

I might have to nominate that as "Post of the Year".

[Aman619]

The owner of the first All Winners 1, the one who paid over $30,000... was recently talking to someone about selling the book. The buyer was interested in buying the book and then saw the other 9.2 sell for $23,900 and now is no longer willing to pay higher than $24,000 for the first book. Neither the buyer nor the seller had any idea of the history behind the $23,900 sale. The buyer lost interest because suddenly $30,000 seems too high to pay. Also, he saw one copy selling for over $30k, and the next one sell for over $6000 less, and suddenly the book looks like a bad investment. Well, now that $23,900 sale is now public record. So what does this other guy do if he wants to sell? Take a $6000 loss? Try to press and clean his book into a CGC 9.4 to keep up?

 

reminds me of the Matt Nelson thread where he argued that a greater supply of High Grade books would be a GOOD THING for the hobby. This example of course points out that it sure aint for the collectors who already HAVE equal copies!! Unless Matt couls indeed improve the 9.2 to a 9.4, that is to keep up.

[esquirecomics]

The owner of the first All Winners 1, the one who paid over $30,000... was recently talking to someone about selling the book. The buyer was interested in buying the book and then saw the other 9.2 sell for $23,900 and now is no longer willing to pay higher than $24,000 for the first book. Neither the buyer nor the seller had any idea of the history behind the $23,900 sale. The buyer lost interest because suddenly $30,000 seems too high to pay. Also, he saw one copy selling for over $30k, and the next one sell for over $6000 less, and suddenly the book looks like a bad investment. Well, now that $23,900 sale is now public record. So what does this other guy do if he wants to sell? Take a $6000 loss? Try to press and clean his book into a CGC 9.4 to keep up?

 

reminds me of the Matt Nelson thread where he argued that a greater supply of High Grade books would be a GOOD THING for the hobby. This example of course points out that it sure aint for the collectors who already HAVE equal copies!! Unless Matt couls indeed improve the 9.2 to a 9.4, that is to keep up.

 

It is a good thing for Matt and the other sellers who bumped up the book and make a manufactured profit. To them that is a good thing for the hobby.

 

Not a good thing for the buyers such as Filter describes. I side with the buyers.

[Bullet123]

I willing to meet on causing concern ( the level of concern depends on your stance on the subject I guess)

 

What Tim and I are more concerned with is that people believe what they read as gospel no matter if what is said has any basis in fact. "I know a guy who knows a guy who " conjecture simply is not good enough for me when it comes to talking about people's reputation's and their livelihoods. You have never seen me disagree with factual information presented on these boards. I applaud your passion and for taking a stance on what you feel is "ruining" the hobby. All I am asking is to simply present the facts and let everyone else make up their own minds.

 

Wow... just Wow.. Bullet, at first I wasn't even going to reply in this thread anymore.. both out of respect to the poster who started the thread, and because several of your posts have me so infuriated I don't trust myself to watch what I say.

But you seem intent on continuing with your faulty logic so fine.

 

Lets start with what you just wrote.

 

"I know a guy who knows a guy who " conjecture simply is not good enough for me when it comes to talking about people's reputation's and their livelihoods.

 

Are you KIDDING me?!?!? Where on these boards, has ANYONE, ANYWHERE tried to back up an argument with "I know a guy who knows a guy" and tried to present it as fact?! Go back and try to give me three examples... can't? ok.. try two.... how about one?!

 

Just like you have your sources, and Tim has his, well, I have mine. Some have been in this hobby for 30+ years. some used to work for Heritage. (you know.. those ex-employees that you say haven't come forward and said anything... well.. yeah.. publicly they haven't.)

The things I have been told would put ANYTHING that has been discussed in this thread so far to shame. The only reason I HAVEN'T discussed any of this prior to now is because I felt it would be irresponsible for me to even say what I have been told until I can prove it all to be true. (regardless of how credible the sources are.) The only reason I even bring this up now, is because you've got me so frustrated with your comments about people wildly presenting rumors as facts, when in reality, nothing could be further from the truth..

 

In your threads you continue to make reference to people spouting out vile, hurtful rumors and representing them as facts without any proof. Here are some quotes from your recent posts:

 

"I think it is just a black eye on the hobby to simply spout things as your version of the truth without a single shred of evidence ."

 

it is the endless speculation based on nothing factual that annoys people like myself and Tim and I am sure others.

 

When a new collector comes on the scene and reads threads like this where people cast dispersions about others without proof it sheds a bad light not only on the medium but the collectors of that medium as well.

 

It is when people go off and spew unsubstantiated venom aimed at either impuning ones integrity or reputation that it bothers me

 

These are things YOU have said in the past 48 hours. And yet, when you are asked REPEATEDLY to come up with even ONE example of people spewing rumors as fact without any proof, you were unable to do so. Not even ONE! With all of the hundreds of pages of dialog on this subject so far, if this were truly a serious concern I would think you would be able to come up with dozens if not hundreds of examples very easily. All that is being done is people are presenting facts as facts, and when something is unknown, allowing everyone to come to their own conclusions based on the facts that do exist and are known.

 

As several posters have said before, if someone reads these threads and still decides to do business with Heritage... FINE.... I have no problem with that whatsoever. But what is going on is important, and there should be a forum where people are able to discuss it.

 

Personally, I feel that much of what you have written in your posts thus far, if taken seriously would be damaging to MY reputation and credibility, as well as the reputation and credibility of many of the other posters on these boards. I feel you are doing this by trying to claim that people are spewing "unsubstantiated venom", or that people are trying to represent opinions as facts "without a single shred of evidence". And yet, you type all of this without being able to provide one single example of what you say is happening. You say what you say without any proof.... without any facts to back it up... without a smoking gun. Considering exactly what it is you are complaining about, I hope the irony of your actions is not lost on you. Normally, I wouldn't mind.. if you want to attack everything I say.. by all means.. attack away. But please be aware in the future of the hypocritical nature of your posts thus far.

 

When asked to come up with an example of someone spewing unsubstantiated venom as fact without a shred of evidence, you quoted my post below:

 

Here is one from page 3 of this thread

So, since Heritage says no employees ever bid on these auctions for resale, what exactly happens in a situation like this? Someone buys the book through Heritage as an 8.0 and thinks it looks like an 8.5 so they send it to CGC. They get the grade they want and they decide to resell it through Heritage to someone else who buys it thinking the new 8.5 looks like a 9.2. So then this second person cracks the case again and decides to send it to CGC and this time it comes back a 9.2. After it comes back from CGC as a 9.2 this person too decides to sell the book through Heritage. Then a third person buys the 9.2 through Heritage and shortly after that decides to sell the book directly to Halperin at significantly less than what he paid. Then, rather than auctioning off the book using his own multi-million dollar consignment service Halperin decides he'll have better luck consigning the book to LewisWayneGalleries on eBay?

 

How exactly does that validate your point at all.. even a little? Please give me one example of something in the above post that I am representing as a fact in the first place! What exactly am I claiming is true without proof? In fact, if the scenario above WERE true, all Heritage would be doing is auctioning off a book and doing nothing wrong.

 

The facts regarding that particular situation are:

 

1) that book was auctioned off at Heritage three times in the past three years. - FACT.

 

2) Each time the book was autioned off it was being sold as a higher CGC graded. (first an 8.0, next an 8.5, then a 9.2) - FACT

 

3) Shortly after selling as a 9.2 through Heritage, it somehow became owned by Halperin, who then decided to consign the book to LewisWayneGalleries for LESS than it just sold through Heritage for the last time around. - FACT

 

If you choose to believe Halperin & Heritage employees do not buy books in their own auctions, do not play the press/resub game, and that there is nothing shady going on. Fine. But that means, in this particular case, if Heritage didn't buy the book, there would need to be no less than three other buyers involved. The guy who bought it as an 8.0 and had it cracked out into an 8.5, the guy who bought it as an 8.5 and had it resubbed as a 9.2, and the guy who bought it as a 9.2 and then sold it to Halperin at a loss. No opinions here.. just FACTS.

 

I have to be honest with you Bullet, if we both sat down and compared your posts to mine, I think you would see that one of us has made many FACTUAL contributions to this topic, and one of us has posted a number of hurtful, unsubstantiated opinions. Why don't you go back and re-read some of my posts, then go back and re-read some of your posts, and see who did what. I think you've done a good job explaining why you feel there is no place for opinions in this discussion, and why there is no place for anything that isn't a fact that can be proven beyond all reasonable doubt. So how about using FACTS in your next post rather than "unsubstantiated venom".

 

Just so we are clear here, some of my FACTUAL contributions to this thread so far include:

 

1) pointing out that the CGC 9.2 Sensation 1 being sold by LewisWayneGalleries used to be a CGC 8.5 Sensation 1 Crowley pedigree that sold through Heritage and later had the pedigree designation removed

 

2) discussing Halperin's well-documented history of playing the crack/resub game in the collectibles market, and his well-documented history of being accused of using his ownership stake in a collectibles slabbing service to give his collectibles inflated grades, and later selling them through Heritage & Heritage affiliates at inflated prices (later being forced to pay over a million dollars in damages.)

 

3) Pointed out the contact information previously registered for LewisWayneGallery.com

 

"Registrant Contact:

Heritage Galleries

Robert Dennis (robertd@heritagegalleries.com)

+1.2147805554

Fax: none

3500 Maple Avenue, 17th Floor

Dallas, TX 75219

US"

 

and also pointed out that almost EVERY item up for sale through LewisWayneGalleries on eBay originated from Heritage.

 

4) Pointed out that Heritage employees and owners are allowed, and often do, participate in bidding in their own auctions. (Although this is something that is apparently published in small print in their catalogs, this is something many people on these boards apparently were unaware of.)

 

What FACTS have you been contributing? You CLAIM people, myself included, are spouting out rumors as facts. So why don't YOU back up what YOU say with facts for once??? I've posted on this topic extensively. Can you give me three examples of something that I represented to be a definite fact, that later could not be proven to be true? Can you give me two examples?

 

My FAVORITE comment of yours though was when you tried to say that threads like this are bad for the hobby. You want to know whats REALLY bad for the hobby? Dishonest people stealing thousands of dollars from newbie collectors.

 

The All Winners 1 listed earlier in this thread is in my opinion a good example of what I feel is wrong with this hobby. The example I am about to give you is not hypothetical, it actually happened.

 

I know someone who bought an All Winners 1 CGC 9.2 a while back, and paid over $30,000 from what I recall. A few weeks ago, a different All Winners 1 CGC 9.2 came up for sale through Heritage and sold for $23,900. The main reason that this copy sold so low in my OPINION, is that the book that sold for $23,900 was previously a CGC 8.5 that sold for less than $15,000. (Looking at the book as an 8.5, $23,900 is an outstanding price. Looking at the book as a 9.2, $23,900 is a terrible one.)

 

The owner of the first All Winners 1, the one who paid over $30,000... was recently talking to someone about selling the book. The buyer was interested in buying the book and then saw the other 9.2 sell for $23,900 and now is no longer willing to pay higher than $24,000 for the first book. Neither the buyer nor the seller had any idea of the history behind the $23,900 sale. The buyer lost interest because suddenly $30,000 seems too high to pay. Also, he saw one copy selling for over $30k, and the next one sell for over $6000 less, and suddenly the book looks like a bad investment. Well, now that $23,900 sale is now public record. So what does this other guy do if he wants to sell? Take a $6000 loss? Try to press and clean his book into a CGC 9.4 to keep up?

 

To me, this is a problem. And the solution to this problem is to make sure everybody is as informed as possible. Not to keep your mouths shut as you suggest and hope that new people entering the hobby don't find out. I feel people are getting screwed so that a few already very wealthy people can get wealthier. Sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "Lalalala" doesn't make this untrue. And I for one, will continue to point out what I feel are problems when I see them, regardless of whether or not this makes you uncomfortable.

 

Lastly, I just have to ask you bullet, what EXACTLY is your problem with this thread? I don't believe there have been ANY examples yet of people presenting speculation as fact. (And since its impossible to prove something that doesn't exist, if you feel this is happening, the burden of proof to show that it is happening is on you.)

 

But lets just say for arguments' sake that some of whats being discussed is wild, unfounded speculation. In this particular case (please don't give me some generalized example) but in THIS particular case, what is the harm?

 

Halperin admitted in a national, well-respected magazine to participating in the cracking and reslabbing collectibles game. He was investigated in the past for owning a collectibles slabbing service which he potentially used to give his collectibles higher grades which he later resold through Heritage and Heritage affiliates. The result of this investigation was that Halperin had to pay back over $1million in damages.

 

Is your worry really that someone might come along, read one of these threads and as a result think that maybe he might be cracking and resubmitting collectibles through a collectible grading service and then selling them through Heritage and Heritage affiliates? The fact that he has gotten in trouble for this before is a matter of public record, people SHOULD wonder if its happening again now. Halperin has done more damage to his reputation by defrauding people since the age of 13, then anyone on these message boards could ever do.

 

And just as an aside, as far as I know, Halperin has never produced a signed, notarized confession written in blood regarding his behavior in the comic book industry. The smoking gun here isn't one specific example, it is a pattern of behavior, that when looked at objectively as a whole paints a surprisingly clear picture of what exactly is going on. Some of what is going on, is now known and is a matter of fact. Some is still unclear and open for people to form their own opinions.

 

OK if I have time I will look for a better one but this is the first one I came across.

 

Actually, I spent in excess of $2,000,000 with them between 2003 & 2005. But they made it pretty clear they could care less. I think their thought process is if their business practices causes a few people not to do business with them anymore, they will still have other people bidding on the auctions anyway.

 

Is that your opinion or is this last statement based on something you recieved from Heritage. If so, could you send me a copy of this correspondence?

 

I truly think they overcharge quite a few people on interest.

 

On what basis do you make this claim? do you have a list of people that were overcharged?

 

I personally find it surprising that they are even allowed to say "your first payment is due on November 1st, but we are going to go back and charge you interest as of October 15th". They literally start charing interest before people even get their winning invoices sent to them. But I'm no accountant so I have no idea if practices like these are common or not.

 

There are terms which you agree to when you bid on items in an auction and for someone who spends that amount of money you would think you would take a little time to get to know them

 

But given some of Heritage's other business practices I guess i'm not that surprised that they'd try to squeeze every last cent they can.

What business practices are you referring to?

 

You are right. There are no specific examples here. Just inflammatory comments but I would love to rebut specific examples of what you talk about here or simply admit that what you say is true based on actual facts.