Manufactured Gold

[FFB]

SD is done. Javitz Center in NYC!

 

Can I referee since I'm friends with both of you?

 

Actually, I was thinking we'd get ten biggest mouths here into sumo suits and just go ape *spoon* and work off all of this internet aggression.

 

Which 10 would you suggest?

 

Jim

 

You can have three of the suits.

[MutantKeys]

Can I have dibs on kicking Greggys azz...

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

SD is done. Javitz Center in NYC!

 

Can I referee since I'm friends with both of you?

 

Actually, I was thinking we'd get ten biggest mouths here into sumo suits and just go ape *spoon* and work off all of this internet aggression.

 

I will start that acceptance speech for next year's Nobel Peace Prize right now.

[greggy]

Can I have dibs on kicking Greggys azz...

Octagon

[Ze-man]

SD is done. Javitz Center in NYC!

 

Not willing to do the steel cage without home field advantage?

 

How bout tag teams?

 

I will be Nacho, "El-Sensitivo" Lapdog, alongside Brad "Photoshop Kid" Libre

 

You can pick your name and sidekick. But I can think of a few for you if you want.

 

 

Ze-

[mica]

You like those two word sentences don't you.

Question Mark

 

Why don't you brush up on punctuation rules for rhetorical questions before you try to correct me. (See? There it is again.)

It was really the whole setup line for you to knock out of the park but Jeff beat you to it.

 

He bats out of order....or you had already hit the showers.

 

Probably

[MasterChief]

I’d like to take this opportunity to amplify a comment made earlier by Filter81. In his post, he made mention of an observable pattern of events that take place when a book goes through the treatment process. The steps he outlined were:

 

• 1. Book sells through Heritage.
  2. Work is done to the book. (Whether its cleaning, pressing, or more)
  3. Book is submitted to CGC and placed in a blue label in a higher grade. (Sometimes 15 or 20 books at a time from the same submitter)
  4. Book is resold through Heritage and the original CGC barcode is removed from the census.

It is a pattern which I have witnessed and documented repeatedly throughout this study. And to help support that observation, the following information is presented. It is a data snapshot of 9 books that were all purchased, treated, re-certified, and sold together as a group over the course of an 11 month period.

 

I have included some notes on the books. If you have the time, search out and study the scans; several present interesting treatment examples.

 

 

[esquirecomics]

3. Book is submitted to CGC and placed in a blue label in a higher grade. (Sometimes 15 or 20 books at a time from the same submitter)

 

This is the key to revealing who this/these individual(s) is/are. If anyone ever has the time, a major service can be done if a search can be conducted to track surrounding graded books to identify the seller/owner.

 

I would be willing to bet, and I can't imagine this would come as a surprise, it is either typically a dealer or major collector, and these individuals are known to us all, though they lack the courage to admit what they are doing.

[nearmint]

3. Book is submitted to CGC and placed in a blue label in a higher grade. (Sometimes 15 or 20 books at a time from the same submitter)

 

This is the key to revealing who this/these individual(s) is/are. If anyone ever has the time, a major service can be done if a search can be conducted to track surrounding graded books to identify the seller/owner.

 

I would be willing to bet, and I can't imagine this would come as a surprise, it is either typically a dealer or major collector, and these individuals are known to us all, though they lack the courage to admit what they are doing.

 

On the flip side, they're not trying very hard to hide it either, or they wouldn't be re-selling the books through Heritage, where before and after scans now exist for all to see. If they really wanted to hide what they were doing, they'd be re-selling on Comiclink, where completed auctions disappear after 90 days, or eBay, where they could cease hosting the photos immediately upon the completion of the auction. The very fact that this kind of data can be compiled by simply navigating Heritage's archive tells me that the re-subbers aren't terribly concerned about their actions being discovered.

 

To me, this means they believe that the majority of their customers and potential customers couldn't care less about re-subbing. Whether they're right or wrong about that remains to be seen.

[esquirecomics]

3. Book is submitted to CGC and placed in a blue label in a higher grade. (Sometimes 15 or 20 books at a time from the same submitter)

 

This is the key to revealing who this/these individual(s) is/are. If anyone ever has the time, a major service can be done if a search can be conducted to track surrounding graded books to identify the seller/owner.

 

I would be willing to bet, and I can't imagine this would come as a surprise, it is either typically a dealer or major collector, and these individuals are known to us all, though they lack the courage to admit what they are doing.

 

On the flip side, they're not trying very hard to hide it either, or they wouldn't be re-selling the books through Heritage, where before and after scans now exist for all to see. If they really wanted to hide what they were doing, they'd be re-selling on Comiclink, where completed auctions disappear after 90 days, or eBay, where they could cease hosting the photos immediately upon the completion of the auction. The very fact that this kind of data can be compiled by simply navigating Heritage's archive tells me that the re-subbers aren't terribly concerned about their actions being discovered.

 

To me, this means they believe that the majority of their customers and potential customers couldn't care less about re-subbing. Whether they're right or wrong about that remains to be seen.

 

They may believe that resubbing (and we are really talking about far more than just simple resubbing here) is not a major issue, but I would say it is far more a degree of cockiness that they believe they can't or won't get caught. How many people are compiling information such as in this thread? I doubt anyone.

 

I have seen numerous instances, especially here in Washington, D.C., where individuals conduct themselves in a generally open manner that is completely inappropriate, unethical or even illegal yet seem to care less as they believe they will never be caught or that people "couldn't care less". Some of these folks end up learning quite a lesson.

[Filter81]

scans now exist for all to see. If they really wanted to hide what they were doing, they'd be re-selling on Comiclink, where completed auctions disappear after 90 days, or eBay, where they could cease hosting the photos immediately upon the completion of the auction.

 

Unless of course the resubmitter/reseller actually IS Heritage.. in which case they would make considerably more money selling through their own site.

 

By the way Mark, I have been compiling a list in my spare time. But I have yet to come up with a way that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt who the submitter is, since that information is no longer public. (Though some very strong conclusions can be drawn)

[MasterChief]

The very fact that this kind of data can be compiled by simply navigating Heritage's archive tells me that the re-subbers aren't terribly concerned about their actions being discovered.

 

Boy that comment seems rather cavalier. It is the second time I have read such a nonchalant statement with an inference as to how simplistic it is to conduct this type of research.

 

Frankly, there is nothing simple about it. Perhaps it is when you are tracking one or two books prior to an auction, but if you’ve got your pulse on several books, I’d say forget it. It takes time to dig deep examining scans, running serial numbers, crosschecking data, and cataloguing information.

 

So unless you’re out of work, or you don’t need to work, a majority of folks don’t have the time to sink this kind of effort into research before bidding. That, I believe, is what the perpetrators of undisclosed treatment are banking on.

 

BTW...I have noticed it is getting much harder to track recently treated books – especially the high-end stuff. Why? Just for the reason you suggest. The numerous websites that do not maintain a database of past auctions.

[nearmint]

The very fact that this kind of data can be compiled by simply navigating Heritage's archive tells me that the re-subbers aren't terribly concerned about their actions being discovered.

 

Boy that comment seems rather cavalier. It is the second time I have read such a nonchalant statement with an inference as to how simplistic it is to conduct this type of research.

 

Frankly, there is nothing simple about it. Perhaps it is when you are tracking one or two books prior to an auction, but if you’ve got your pulse on several books, I’d say forget it. It takes time to dig deep examining scans, running serial numbers, crosschecking data, and cataloguing information.

 

So unless you’re out of work, or you don’t need to work, a majority of folks don’t have the time to sink this kind of effort into research before bidding. That, I believe, is what the perpetrators of undisclosed treatment are banking on.

 

BTW...I have noticed it is getting much harder to track recently treated books – especially the high-end stuff. Why? Just for the reason you suggest. The numerous websites that do not maintain a database of past auctions.

 

MasterChief, you've put together some great examples of re-subs in this thread. I think everyone on the boards appreciates the amount of work you've put into it. But, board members have been discovering re-subs and posting about them for years. Any dealer or collector with any familiarity with the boards would have to know that if they bought a book from Heritage, cracked, pressed, and re-sold through Heritage, that there's a good chance that a board member would spot it and alert the forum community. My only point was that if said dealer/collector really wanted to hide their actions, they'd be better off selling elsewhere than Heritage.

[nearmint]

scans now exist for all to see. If they really wanted to hide what they were doing, they'd be re-selling on Comiclink, where completed auctions disappear after 90 days, or eBay, where they could cease hosting the photos immediately upon the completion of the auction.

 

Unless of course the resubmitter/reseller actually IS Heritage.. in which case they would make considerably more money selling through their own site.

 

But if Heritage doesn't shy away from "improving" books(which may very well be the case), wouldn't they make that same considerable amount of money, AND avoid suspicion, by improving the books before they listed them the first time?

[Filter81]

But if Heritage doesn't shy away from "improving" books(which may very well be the case), wouldn't they make that same considerable amount of money, AND avoid suspicion, by improving the books before they listed them the first time?

 

Unless it actually is other people consigning the books to Heritage the first time. Then Heritage buys the books in the first auction, making their 10% seller fee, and buying the book with a built-in 19.5% discount. Then they crack/press/clean/resub the books and resell them on their site later in higher grades.

[nearmint]

But if Heritage doesn't shy away from "improving" books(which may very well be the case), wouldn't they make that same considerable amount of money, AND avoid suspicion, by improving the books before they listed them the first time?

 

Unless it actually is other people consigning the books to Heritage the first time. Then Heritage buys the books in the first auction, making their 10% seller fee, and buying the book with a built-in 19.5% discount. Then they crack/press/clean/resub the books and resell them on their site later in higher grades.

 

Ah, good point. Certainly possible.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

But if Heritage doesn't shy away from "improving" books(which may very well be the case), wouldn't they make that same considerable amount of money, AND avoid suspicion, by improving the books before they listed them the first time?

 

Unless it actually is other people consigning the books to Heritage the first time. Then Heritage buys the books in the first auction, making their 10% seller fee, and buying the book with a built-in 19.5% discount. Then they crack/press/clean/resub the books and resell them on their site later in higher grades.

 

Exactly. Its like going to a con, getting first dibs on what's there (since they've consigned it to you, you have weeks if not months to determine what books haven't reached their full "potential"), getting a huge 20% discount no other buyers are getting, and then the dealer chips in an extra 10% for the pleasure of doing business with you.

 

The slickest confidence man couldn't invent a better scam.

[namisgr]

But if Heritage doesn't shy away from "improving" books(which may very well be the case), wouldn't they make that same considerable amount of money, AND avoid suspicion, by improving the books before they listed them the first time?

 

Unless it actually is other people consigning the books to Heritage the first time. Then Heritage buys the books in the first auction, making their 10% seller fee, and buying the book with a built-in 19.5% discount. Then they crack/press/clean/resub the books and resell them on their site later in higher grades.

 

Wake up, folks! Heritage can make a whole lot more money from this business strategy than merely gobbling up the vig from buyer and seller. Once the books that are consigned to Heritage are in their hands, they can look them over for the most likely "upgrade" candidates, and then attempt to win as many of them as possible at auction. Following a crack/improve/resub protocol, the books can be auctioned again. Masterchief's chart illustrates just how lucrative this approach can be. Keep in mind that Heritage also continues to reap the "juice" from the original consigner as well as the ultimate buyer.

 

The only way to ensure that this approach is not in use by the auction house would be for said auction house to (1) ban their employees and consultants from bidding, and (2) make public the bidder identitites on all auctions.

[Red Hook]

The very fact that this kind of data can be compiled by simply navigating Heritage's archive tells me that the re-subbers aren't terribly concerned about their actions being discovered.

 

Boy that comment seems rather cavalier. It is the second time I have read such a nonchalant statement with an inference as to how simplistic it is to conduct this type of research.

 

Frankly, there is nothing simple about it. Perhaps it is when you are tracking one or two books prior to an auction, but if you’ve got your pulse on several books, I’d say forget it. It takes time to dig deep examining scans, running serial numbers, crosschecking data, and cataloguing information.

 

So unless you’re out of work, or you don’t need to work, a majority of folks don’t have the time to sink this kind of effort into research before bidding. That, I believe, is what the perpetrators of undisclosed treatment are banking on.

 

BTW...I have noticed it is getting much harder to track recently treated books – especially the high-end stuff. Why? Just for the reason you suggest. The numerous websites that do not maintain a database of past auctions.

 

MasterChief, you've put together some great examples of re-subs in this thread. I think everyone on the boards appreciates the amount of work you've put into it. But, board members have been discovering re-subs and posting about them for years. Any dealer or collector with any familiarity with the boards would have to know that if they bought a book from Heritage, cracked, pressed, and re-sold through Heritage, that there's a good chance that a board member would spot it and alert the forum community. My only point was that if said dealer/collector really wanted to hide their actions, they'd be better off selling elsewhere than Heritage.

 

Jeff, I have to respectfully disagree. As one of those board members who's been going through the scans for a couple of years, what MC has been doing is another level of connecting-the-dots entirely. Documenting and presenting the material in a form that is cohesive and undeniable, as well as presenting it in a matter-of-fact manner. I appreciate his work, and I also recognize the fact that a consistant methodology has only been theorized before. MC has laid it out quite plainly. It's groundbreaking work.

 

Brad

[nearmint]

The very fact that this kind of data can be compiled by simply navigating Heritage's archive tells me that the re-subbers aren't terribly concerned about their actions being discovered.

 

Boy that comment seems rather cavalier. It is the second time I have read such a nonchalant statement with an inference as to how simplistic it is to conduct this type of research.

 

Frankly, there is nothing simple about it. Perhaps it is when you are tracking one or two books prior to an auction, but if you’ve got your pulse on several books, I’d say forget it. It takes time to dig deep examining scans, running serial numbers, crosschecking data, and cataloguing information.

 

So unless you’re out of work, or you don’t need to work, a majority of folks don’t have the time to sink this kind of effort into research before bidding. That, I believe, is what the perpetrators of undisclosed treatment are banking on.

 

BTW...I have noticed it is getting much harder to track recently treated books – especially the high-end stuff. Why? Just for the reason you suggest. The numerous websites that do not maintain a database of past auctions.

 

MasterChief, you've put together some great examples of re-subs in this thread. I think everyone on the boards appreciates the amount of work you've put into it. But, board members have been discovering re-subs and posting about them for years. Any dealer or collector with any familiarity with the boards would have to know that if they bought a book from Heritage, cracked, pressed, and re-sold through Heritage, that there's a good chance that a board member would spot it and alert the forum community. My only point was that if said dealer/collector really wanted to hide their actions, they'd be better off selling elsewhere than Heritage.

 

Jeff, I have to respectfully disagree. As one of those board members who's been going through the scans for a couple of years, what MC has been doing is another level of connecting-the-dots entirely. Documenting and presenting the material in a form that is cohesive and undeniable, as well as presenting it in a matter-of-fact manner. I appreciate his work, and I also recognize the fact that a consistant methodology has only been theorized before. MC has laid it out quite plainly. It's groundbreaking work.

 

Brad

 

Brad, do you disagree that sellers of resubs, wanting to disguise their actions, would be better off selling elsewhere than Heritage, where evidence of their actions is archived for all to see? That was my main point.