Manufactured Gold

[Ze-man]

And saying someone is in the clear implys that they have the green light to disassemble any book and they'll get away with it.

 

This is correct, as long as you reassemble it correctly.

 

Do you think it's smart for someone to risk a qualified grade by trying this? I don't think you're factoring in risk here.

 

With all due respect Matt, You are as qualified, if not one of the most qualified people who could preform disassembly correctly. Add to that the fact you also know what raises red flags for those looking for books that have possibly been taken apart and put back together.

 

I am not sure if it is laughable, or insulting that you are playing the " well if somebody has the skill to do it, I could see that it is possible" card.

 

I can appreciate the fact you dont come on here and say, "Yup, I can , and DO this to books all the time" But you could at least do us all a favor and own up to the fact that if you wanted to,and if the book was a proper candidate you could do it.

 

Quite well for that matter.

 

 

 

 

 

Ze-

[Matt Nelson]

Does it really matter who caught him?

 

Actually, in the context of this argument, it's the only thing that matters. CGC did not flag the disassembly and staple replacement because (a) they were played by a dealer who 'knew the score' and (b) they do not use a database for prior submissions.

 

The point is that Ewert knew how to get things past CGC...and the FF #3 is a 100%, perfect example of that. The fact that he didn't know how to get it past the talent on the boards is another thing entirely and please don't confuse the two.

 

 

So moving forward, don't you think that the combined efforts of CGC and the boards would discourage most people from attempting these things? If not, what will it take?

 

I feel like we're back to the finger-pointing with little effort to get to a solution or some sort of acceptence.

 

 

...but they're the best thing out there.

 

 

case in point.

[THE_BEYONDER]

. I bet based on this string alone they will be cracking down on disassembly.

 

Good grief.

 

Steve came on here & stated that disassembly is not restoration. He also defended CGC's decision to put a disassembled book in a Blue label holder.

 

What is it you can't comprehend?

 

CGC is not going to "crack-down" on disassembly.

[Flaming_Telepath]

So moving forward, don't you think that the combined efforts of CGC and the boards would discourage most people from attempting these things?

 

At the risk of sounding facetious, I think CGC charge good money to spot these things?

 

Whereas the people here who have raised red flags on many questionable issues are paid nothing and, the vast majority of the time, are labelled 'CGC bashers' or 'witch-hunters'.

 

Additionally, in the wake of the Ewert debacle, we heard some grand noises from CGC regarding how they were going to formally involve collectors/boarders in a 'think-tank' to help stop this sort of thing.

 

Which went absolutely nowhere.

 

And whilst we here are time and time again suggesting to CGC a great part of the way forward....transparancy, independence, clear communication, constant standards...it is all falling on deaf ears. You might not see it this way...because of all this 'negativity' we generate ....but we're trying to be part of the solution, whilst those who fail to communicate appear to be part of the problem.

[Matt Nelson]

Whether CGC can or can't catch it--I don't see the argument.

 

I believe the argument, as put forward by you, was:

 

Do you think it's smart for someone to risk a qualified grade by trying this? I don't think you're factoring in risk here.

 

I'm saying there is little risk involved if you logically examine and extrapolate Ewert's motivations and actions for buying the FF # 3, and what Steve Borock said on this thread. I did my first deal with Ewert in 1993, and have always considered him to be a very sharp guy. I don't believe he would have forked out the $3,800 for that FF # 3 if he didn't KNOW (with a high degree of certainty) that with the proper tweaking it would return with a blue label.

 

So, again, I doubt this whole "risk of disassembly being caught" thing is more then a few weeks old, and if books are flagged with greater regularity, it will be in response to this thread (as you suggest) and not to some standing principle at CGC that has been in place for over a year or more.

 

But Ewert was operating in a climate vastly different than the one that exists now. At the time, there was no threat of CGC shutting you down, or your name being dragged through the mud on the boards. I'd say that's an enormous risk now.

 

Take it from me, the "risk of disassembly" has been there way longer than a few weeks. It is a standing principle of CGC that I have been aware of for some time now. Just because it made its first appearance on the boards a few weeks ago doesn't mean it started here.

 

 

 

 

Ultimately it sounds to me like you will never have faith in CGC, regardless of what is said. If I am wrong, please explain to me what it would take for them to make you a believer again.

 

Yeah, I just bought $6,000 worth of slabbed books this month because of a lack of faith.

 

Well then it sounds to me like you have a lot of faith in them! I'm glad to see that.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

And Matt, kudos to you for coming on here and taking some heat from the Natives.

 

As for what needs to happen going forward in regards to CGC, its nothing that hasn't been outlined by other posters a dozen times before:

 

- Define your grading standards and publish them on your website.

- Define your restoration standards and publish them on your website.

- Be a little more consumer-friendly, and a little less submitter-friendly.

 

That's all I ask.

[Matt Nelson]

So moving forward, don't you think that the combined efforts of CGC and the boards would discourage most people from attempting these things?

 

At the risk of sounding facetious, I think CGC charge good money to spot these things?

 

Whereas the people here who have raised red flags on many questionable issues are paid nothing and, the vast majority of the time, are labelled 'CGC bashers' or 'witch-hunters'.

 

Additionally, in the wake of the Ewert debacle, we heard some grand noises from CGC regarding how they were going to formally involve collectors/boarders in a 'think-tank' to help stop this sort of thing.

 

Which went absolutely nowhere.

 

And whilst we here are time and time again suggesting to CGC a great part of the way forward....transparancy, independence, clear communication, constant standards...it is all falling on deaf ears. You might not see it this way...because of all this 'negativity' we generate ....but we're trying to be part of the solution, whilst those who fail to communicate appear to be part of the problem.

 

Maybe I'm having a hard time differentiating between the people who are honestly trying to make things better, and the others who just complain. It all seems to run together sometimes.

 

I do feel like some of the complaints brought up with CGC cannot be helped. There will always be people trying to sneak stuff through, and that goes for every collectible and every grading company associated with it.

 

I'm not up on the lack of progress made between CGC and the boards in regard to these matters, so I don't really have an opinion on that.

[Matt Nelson]

And saying someone is in the clear implys that they have the green light to disassemble any book and they'll get away with it.

 

This is correct, as long as you reassemble it correctly.

 

Do you think it's smart for someone to risk a qualified grade by trying this? I don't think you're factoring in risk here.

 

With all due respect Matt, You are as qualified, if not one of the most qualified people who could preform disassembly correctly. Add to that the fact you also know what raises red flags for those looking for books that have possibly been taken apart and put back together.

 

I am not sure if it is laughable, or insulting that you are playing the " well if somebody has the skill to do it, I could see that it is possible" card.

 

I can appreciate the fact you dont come on here and say, "Yup, I can , and DO this to books all the time" But you could at least do us all a favor and own up to the fact that if you wanted to,and if the book was a proper candidate you could do it.

 

Quite well for that matter.

 

Ze-

 

Even if I could get it through some of the time, I still wouldn't do it. Risking my reputation isn't worth it. If we're talking about someone who has nothing to lose, I guess that's a different story. But given the time that has passed since CGC opened, and the enormous amount of experience they've gained, I just can't someone walking into this new and being capable of pulling off such a stunt. I could be wrong, but I just can't see it.

[Matt Nelson]

Gotta run...will check back in later tonight.

[batman_fan]

Does it really matter who caught him?

 

Actually, in the context of this argument, it's the only thing that matters. CGC did not flag the disassembly and staple replacement because (a) they were played by a dealer who 'knew the score' and (b) they do not use a database for prior submissions.

 

The point is that Ewert knew how to get things past CGC...and the FF #3 is a 100%, perfect example of that. The fact that he didn't know how to get it past the talent on the boards is another thing entirely and please don't confuse the two.

 

 

So moving forward, don't you think that the combined efforts of CGC and the boards would discourage most people from attempting these things? If not, what will it take?

 

I feel like we're back to the finger-pointing with little effort to get to a solution or some sort of acceptence.

 

 

...but they're the best thing out there.

 

 

case in point.

 

Matt,

 

I do not for one minute believe Ewert is gone. Why would he. His getting caught should have just shifted the game. He got caught because he took high profile books that people had scans of and trimmed them. If he stuck with ungraded lower dollor books, no problem. He just needs to stick with this business model. One thing the comic game has always shown is crooked people always come back. The money is to attractive. Does he still submit to CGC? Who knows, but it would be pretty easy to do, just don't tell them your name. I myself can't imagine He was working in a vacuum. Other people knew what he was doing and have never been named our outted so just submit through them and we have perfect places to pass your "tainted" books, CLINK, Pedegree, Ebay, etc. Actually I now wonder every time I see a trimmed book whether it is an old trim job or and experiment of a new technique ... Remember, post Ewert, CGC has missed at least one resub of a trimmed Ewert book ...

 

Greg

[THE_BEYONDER]

What I've always found interesting/disturbing is that the identity of the trimmer (I believe Ewert commissioned the work) has never been revealed.

[batman_fan]

I agree, and now it is just a matter of modifying the technique ...

[tth2]

The "it don't bother me" crowd will be here shortly to make sure only softballs get thrown his way.

Pressing DOES bother me, but I don't think there's anything wrong with advocating civil discourse. I'm happy to see that Matt is in this thread, and I'm equally happy to see that so far everybody is playing nice.

[esquirecomics]

The "it don't bother me" crowd will be here shortly to make sure only softballs get thrown his way.

Pressing DOES bother me, but I don't think there's anything wrong with advocating civil discourse. I'm happy to see that Matt is in this thread, and I'm equally happy to see that so far everybody is playing nice.

 

Geez, that was so NON melodramatic I feel asleep. I thought you were a decent lawyer?

[shadroch]

Quick question-

Now that CGC is aware of the Sensation having its covers switched,not once but twice-have they called for it to be returned? Have they suspended the account of the person who submitted it?Done anything besides give a mumbo-jumbo explanation of why a dissassembled book was given a blue label?

[FFB]

Quick question-

Now that CGC is aware of the Sensation having its covers switched,not once but twice-have they called for it to be returned? Have they suspended the account of the person who submitted it?Done anything besides give a mumbo-jumbo explanation of why a dissassembled book was given a blue label?

 

Is this a rhetorical question? CGC doesn't view swapping the covers back the way they were as restoration. Why would they ask for the book back or suspend the submitter? I'm not saying I agree with CGC's stance on whether the book was "restored" or not, but I can't imagine them suspending a submitter because of that book. In my mind, there's a big difference between swapping the covers back the way they were and trimming a book.

[burntboy]

Seriously, last post.....(post shower).....

 

I do believe someone who is supremely confident in their skills would risk it. Absolutely.

 

 

Exactly right Red. I said it before, and I'll mention it here again for Matt's sake: Look at the Ewert FF # 3 as prime evidence of this.

 

Ewert (assuming it was he who bought it off of Heritage) paid $3,800 for a QUALIFIED (Staples Cleaned) CGC 9.0.

 

Ignoring the Trimming that was done to the book post-purchase, the Heritage buyer must have felt pretty confident that he could reassemble the book and sneak it by CGC. Obviously, he paid top, top dollar for a GREEN label (a very nice Blue label FF # 3 in CGC 8.5 just sold for $3,400 on ebay, a year and half after the sale on Heritage).

 

Not only did he get away with the trimming, but also the reassembly.

 

That's why I don't buy this "threat of getting a green label" argument as a deterrant, because we have direct and irrefutable evidence that green labels can easily be turned back into blue labels with CGC's blessing.

 

i would opine that describing this process as being "EASILY" performed could be a stretch.................the FF#3 is a sound example, but it's just one. i doubt we've been exposed to more than a handful, if that many...........

 

having said that; i'm as confused as ever..........i read and reread Steve's note and thought it was clear (as Red has already stated) that NOW CGC DID NOT consider diassembly and reassembly of books as resto.

 

they would get downgraded if done poorly, but if no other resto was determined, the work wouldn't generate a purple or green label.

 

yet, Matt continues to feel that CGC would generate a Green label IF disassembly were discovered.............well, it's gotta be one or the other, right???

[Matt Nelson]

Quick question-

Now that CGC is aware of the Sensation having its covers switched,not once but twice-have they called for it to be returned? Have they suspended the account of the person who submitted it?Done anything besides give a mumbo-jumbo explanation of why a dissassembled book was given a blue label?

 

Is this a rhetorical question? CGC doesn't view swapping the covers back the way they were as restoration. Why would they ask for the book back or suspend the submitter? I'm not saying I agree with CGC's stance on whether the book was "restored" or not, but I can't imagine them suspending a submitter because of that book. In my mind, there's a big difference between swapping the covers back the way they were and trimming a book.

 

If CGC suspended the submittor, wouldn't that be considering "policing" the hobby?

[drbanner]

having said that; i'm as confused as ever..........i read and reread Steve's note and thought it was clear (as Red has already stated) that NOW CGC DID NOT consider diassembly and reassembly of books as resto.

 

they would get downgraded if done poorly, but if no other resto was determined, the work wouldn't generate a purple or green label.

 

yet, Matt continues to feel that CGC would generate a Green label IF disassembly were discovered.............well, it's gotta be one or the other, right???

 

Reading between the lines of Matt and Steves posts, and seeing the examples, I believe CGC would give the book a green label if they felt the staples were replaced (even if they were the original staples but put back in incorrectly).

[MasterChief]

If CGC suspended the submittor, wouldn't that be considering "policing" the hobby?

 

They kicked Jason Ewart out of the hobby. Is that not a police action?