Manufactured Gold

[tth2]

Note that the Western PA copy of Annual #3 was resubmitted without its old 9.4 label, as evidenced by the absence of the pedigree designation on the "new" 9.6 version

Paging the "Lost Pedigree Identification Team"!

[Red Hook]

Way ahead of you.

 

Wait till it happens to your Flash's. It will, unfortunately.

[namisgr]

Just a note for those of you following the saga of the FF21 cgc 9.4 (former 9.2?) white being offered currently on the Link: it was submitted in the same batch of books as the 6 Spideys that received grade bumps.

[shadroch]

Mr Nelson,

Were you to do work that is considered restoration( not pressing) for a client,and that book or books was sold by the person who commisioned it as non-restored, would you continue to do work for that person?

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Bob,

 

Sorry dude.

[namisgr]

This one may have been pressed:

 

new 9.4

 

old 9.2

[tth2]

Way ahead of you.

 

Wait till it happens to your Flash's. It will, unfortunately.

No doubt. At least my books will have super large scans (front and back) that are preserved and always publicly available, courtesy of that member of the Axis of Evil, Heritage, so that people will have a reference from which to identify any resubbed or upgraded copies in the future. In contrast to books sold through a "good" site, Bob Storm's, which has no permanent archive and therefore makes us totally reliant on Namisgr's personal scans and his making them available, which means that we're basically reliant on Namisgr to ID any resubbed books to us.

 

Ironic, no?

[namisgr]

Bob,

 

Sorry dude.

 

Thanks, George, but I suspect the books may have been worked on before being resubmitted. If that is, indeed, the case, then it is the next owner that deserves your sympathy, because said owner has no idea their recent purchase received work in order to garner a higher numerical grade.

[Red Hook]

You are such a tool, Tim.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Bob,

 

Sorry dude.

 

Thanks, George, but I suspect the books may have been worked on before being resubmitted. If that is, indeed, the case, then it is the next owner that deserves your sympathy, because said owner has no idea their recent purchase received work in order to garner a higher numerical grade.

 

It is in CGC's best interest that these upgrades are viewed as the result of pressing. If the books were straight resubs....they would have much more to answer for.

[esquirecomics]

Did you sell them to the same person?

 

Jim

 

Since the run is being sold on consignment to Blazingbob, I am not certain. I have requested that information from him, and will let you know what I learn.

 

We're getting closer. Just a matter of time.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Bob,

 

Sorry dude.

 

Thanks, George, but I suspect the books may have been worked on before being resubmitted. If that is, indeed, the case, then it is the next owner that deserves your sympathy, because said owner has no idea their recent purchase received work in order to garner a higher numerical grade.

 

I undersand. But a few years ago, I sold several of my FFs to Jason Ewert, and they later reappeared in new slabs in higher grades. In hindsight, I can only imagine what was done to them to garner the bumps, and its those thoughts that bother me the most.

 

These treasures are the one out of a 1,000 or 10,000 that beat the odds and survived in the same shape as the day they were printed for 40+ years. They were cared for and remained in the collections of collectors who cared for and cherished them. Then one day they were bought by someone and subsequently pancaked/sliced/diced/taken apart and put back together all in the pursuit of a few extra dollars.

 

And its this callous treatment of the hobby and comics that we all love that ticks me off to no end.....

[Foolkiller]

Bob,

 

Sorry dude.

 

Thanks, George, but I suspect the books may have been worked on before being resubmitted. If that is, indeed, the case, then it is the next owner that deserves your sympathy, because said owner has no idea their recent purchase received work in order to garner a higher numerical grade.

 

If the scans were bigger, we could be even more certain of potential upgrades through "artificial means"... I look for patterns of behavior with who buys what books and does the press and resub game. Then I think of the kind of books that Bob Siman buys and that they are always have strong eye appeal, and if you smooth out a small corner here or improve a minor crinkle here you have a real potential for upgrade on the hottest Marvel title.

 

Seems to me that there are only a few candidates who bought these books -- but pressing is part of the landscape right now, and it appears somebody picked up and Bob's books and "maximized them".

[tth2]

Did you sell them to the same person?

 

Jim

 

Since the run is being sold on consignment to Blazingbob, I am not certain. I have requested that information from him, and will let you know what I learn.

 

We're getting closer. Just a matter of time.

The answer will be "Marc Schreuder".

 

[esquirecomics]

Did you sell them to the same person?

 

Jim

 

Since the run is being sold on consignment to Blazingbob, I am not certain. I have requested that information from him, and will let you know what I learn.

 

We're getting closer. Just a matter of time.

The answer will be "Marc Schreuder".

 

 

If it were only that easy.

[jkrk]

As many of you know, I recently sold via consignment my collection of Amazing Spiderman slabs. As of today, 6 of my old books showed up for sale on Comiclink in fresh holders with higher numerical grades. All are from a single recent submission to CGC. Note that the Western PA copy of Annual #3 was resubmitted without its old 9.4 label, as evidenced by the absence of the pedigree designation on the "new" 9.6 version:

 

my ASM 86 8.5; now cgc 9.0

 

my ASM 46 9.0; now cgc 9.2

 

my ASM 72 9.2; now cgc 9.4

 

my ASM Annual 3 9.4 Western PA; now 9.6, missing pedigree designation

 

my ASM 68 9.4; now cgc 9.6

 

my ASM 21 9.2; now cgc 9.4

 

6 upgrades from how large a sample?

 

 

Simply "follow the money".

[Matt Nelson]

If you're a grading company, and more than one or maybe two trimmed books pop up on one invoice, I think you'd pull the name up.

 

 

 

By no means am I saying I know what goes on in CGC's grading room. I do not. But if they grade an invoice that in the end looks suspicious, they could simply review those books afterwards by sending them back to Chris for a second restoration check. This doesn't affect the books' grades in any way, but it assures that CGC is being as thorough as possible.

 

 

Matt, first of all I wish to compliment you for taking the heat and answering the questions posed in various posts. Many in the industry choose to hide and and refuse to post unless they see their business impacted.

 

Regading CGC - If two trimmed books pop up I would pull up the name of the submitter. I would next inform the submitter of what I found. I would then alert customer service to flag any additional books sent in by the submitter. If I found additional trimmed books I would warn the submitter that if additional trimmed books are found in the future he would be suspended from sending in books in the future and the info would be diseminated to the public. Books that are passed through in a blue label and later discovered to be restored hurts CGC's reputation.

How many scandals need to occur before we begin to see a falloff in CGC's business? Most posters indicate that the restoration check is the main reason to send the raw books to CGC.

 

Is cracking down on submitters sending in suspicious parcels a police action or a defense of CGC's business? Unfortunately for the collectors, CGC will continue to judge how much of a revenue loss will occur if a big submitter is the source of the problem.

 

Hi jkrk, glad to be here.

 

I agree that CGC's policy to ban is ultimately for their own good, and is a defense of their business. Maybe it was the dramatic outcome of the Ewert incident that contributed to the police image.

 

Yes, at some point flagging submissions is a good idea, but releasing this information to the public is tricky--what if the submittor is buying them from other people already trimmed, like at a show or through ebay?

[namisgr]

Blazingbob has confirmed that the 6 upgraded Spideys were all sold to the same buyer. It is extremely likely that the 6 were pressed, along with a couple others that did not receive higher grades upon resubmission (for instance, the ASM 5 being sold as an 8.5 on Comiclink is my old label 8.5).

 

Since it is not a good practice for his business, Bob understandably did not disclose the name of the buyer. However, we know the buyer is one of Bob's regular big ticket clients who lives in the Metro NY area, and so was able to look the collection over in person. We also know the buyer presses books and resells them without disclosure. Two obvious candidates immediately come to mind who deal routinely with high grade Silver, one living in NY and the other in Northern NJ - I will let you know when I pinpoint who the buyer was among these two individuals well known to the boards and comic-buying community.

 

The presser has chutzpah: they claim in the Clink auction that the Western PA designation was "accidently" left off the ASM Annual 3, when we know that, in reality, the old label was not included with the resubmission so as to disguise the facts that the book had previously received a lower grade and had subsequently been worked on.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Blazingbob has confirmed that the 6 upgraded Spideys were all sold to the same buyer. It is extremely likely that the 6 were pressed, along with a couple others that did not receive higher grades upon resubmission (for instance, the ASM 5 being sold as an 8.5 on Comiclink is my old label 8.5).

 

Since it is not a good practice for his business, Bob understandably did not disclose the name of the buyer. However, we know the buyer is one of Bob's regular big ticket clients who lives in the Metro NY area, and so was able to look the collection over in person. We also know the buyer presses books and resells them without disclosure. Two obvious candidates immediately come to mind who deal routinely with high grade Silver, one living in NY and the other in Northern NJ - I will let you know when I pinpoint who the buyer was among these two individuals well known to the boards and comic-buying community.

 

The presser has chutzpah: they claim in the Clink auction that the Western PA designation was "accidently" left off the ASM Annual 3, when we know that, in reality, the old label was not included with the resubmission so as to disguise the facts that the book had previously received a lower grade and had subsequently been worked on.

 

Bob, excellent work! And I understand Bob S' invidious position, so your own efforts are much appreciated by the collecting community.

 

It's funny, but those alledged 'wild west' days of yore don't seem so bad in retrospect.

[Foolkiller]

Blazingbob has confirmed that the 6 upgraded Spideys were all sold to the same buyer. It is extremely likely that the 6 were pressed, along with a couple others that did not receive higher grades upon resubmission (for instance, the ASM 5 being sold as an 8.5 on Comiclink is my old label 8.5).

 

Since it is not a good practice for his business, Bob understandably did not disclose the name of the buyer. However, we know the buyer is one of Bob's regular big ticket clients who lives in the Metro NY area, and so was able to look the collection over in person. We also know the buyer presses books and resells them without disclosure. Two obvious candidates immediately come to mind who deal routinely with high grade Silver, one living in NY and the other in Northern NJ - I will let you know when I pinpoint who the buyer was among these two individuals well known to the boards and comic-buying community.

 

The presser has chutzpah: they claim in the Clink auction that the Western PA designation was "accidently" left off the ASM Annual 3, when we know that, in reality, the old label was not included with the resubmission so as to disguise the facts that the book had previously received a lower grade and had subsequently been worked on.

 

What a shock.