Manufactured Gold

[Matt Nelson]

And I didn't say "groundswell" which implies a significant and quick increasing concern. I just said that the numbers are increasing. The membership of the NOD, which is somewhere around 25 and always available on the website (we don't hide identities, everything is out in the open), is not necessarily reflective of this fact. Many people on the CGC boards, including posting in this thread, have offered comments reflective of the NOD philosophy but they are not NOD members for one reason or the other.

 

groundswell was a comment you had made some time ago in another post. I think transition was another. If NOD is not reflecting this "fact", then what evidence do you have to support so called fact?

 

To take it one step further, how is this different than Harley Yee buying your book for $1000 and marking it up to $2000 on his wall?

 

Because Harley didn't manipulate the book.

 

This comparison was made when I was under the impression that Bob was upset because somebody was making money off of him. I digress.

[Matt Nelson]

The many outweigh the few. So that makes everything A O K , Gotcha.

 

If Matt wated to reply to my post he could have, but thanks for filling the class in on what we already know.

 

 

Ze-

 

Ze, I can barely type fast enough with all of these posts coming in! I've already answered your question, so I'm moving on to others.

 

The only way the few are right is if they become the many...this is Mark's dream anyway.

 

Star Trek II proved that the needs of the one can still outweigh the needs of the many or else there would not have been a Star Trek III and onwards, so I can be happy knowing I'm right even if we lack the many.

 

Mark, this doesn't mean I'm going to see you in a trekkie outfit at the next show, does it?

[Matt Nelson]

The many outweigh the few. So that makes everything A O K , Gotcha.

 

If Matt wated to reply to my post he could have, but thanks for filling the class in on what we already know.

 

 

Ze-

 

Ze, I can barely type fast enough with all of these posts coming in! I've already answered your question, so I'm moving on to others.

 

The only way the few are right is if they become the many...this is Mark's dream anyway.

 

Star Trek II proved that the needs of the one can still outweigh the needs of the many or else there would not have been a Star Trek III and onwards, so I can be happy knowing I'm right even if we lack the many.

 

Star Trek II proved that? Well SHEE-OOOT, I am convinced now. Matt Nelson, you are scum if you don't do what Star Trek II tells you to do.

 

My big, big laugh of the day.....

[Matt Nelson]

Whatever the reason they use it, the point is that the limited facts do not bear it out. Whether that means the seller and the person on the message board both have a mistaken belief in what pressing will do to the resale value of a book, I don't know. I suspect that fear of the "unknown" is a good part of why some sellers don't disclose though.

 

Scott, I encourage you to research this issue further. Having followed a large number of auctions from Spectre52, I am of the opinion that said seller achieves less-than-GPA average prices for substantially more than half his high grade books. And this is with merely scattered knowledge that said seller works on the books he sells. I differ in opinion from you, and suspect that if pressing and non-disassembly cleaning were explicitly disclosed for books being auctioned on a routine basis, the price differential between "virgin" and "worked on" books would be readily apparent.

 

Then I guess the people who won my unpressed books got a helluva deal....

[Matt Nelson]

I want to be clear that I am sorry that you're angry. Your situation is exactly why I offer pressing services to others.

 

 

Am I the only one who doesn't quite follow this statement?

 

my mind is going so fast I keep thinking Bob was upset because he lost money on the books. But I do stand by all of my comments regarding his anger in my response to him earlier.

[esquirecomics]

And I didn't say "groundswell" which implies a significant and quick increasing concern. I just said that the numbers are increasing. The membership of the NOD, which is somewhere around 25 and always available on the website (we don't hide identities, everything is out in the open), is not necessarily reflective of this fact. Many people on the CGC boards, including posting in this thread, have offered comments reflective of the NOD philosophy but they are not NOD members for one reason or the other.

groundswell was a comment you had made some time ago in another post. I think transition was another. If NOD is not reflecting this "fact", then what evidence do you have to support so called fact?

 

I'm sure if I used the term groundswell, which is entirely possible, it was to denote the potential future and not necessary reflective of the present. Transition remains apt. The existence of the NOD is certainly reflective of a "transition", but not a groundswell. At least not yet.

 

To take it one step further, how is this different than Harley Yee buying your book for $1000 and marking it up to $2000 on his wall?

 

Because Harley didn't manipulate the book.

 

This comparison was made when I was under the impression that Bob was upset because somebody was making money off of him. I digress.

 

No problem. I understood what was causing Bob's concern given that it is indicative of why there exists so much controversy. That is what prompted my exact comments in response to yours. Perhaps now that you understand our concerns you can understand the controversy better.

 

BTW, unlike FFB, I won't jump on you for articulating a point that was misinterpreting someone else's post or be condescending about it. Hi Scott!

[esquirecomics]

The many outweigh the few. So that makes everything A O K , Gotcha.

 

If Matt wated to reply to my post he could have, but thanks for filling the class in on what we already know.

 

 

Ze-

 

Ze, I can barely type fast enough with all of these posts coming in! I've already answered your question, so I'm moving on to others.

 

The only way the few are right is if they become the many...this is Mark's dream anyway.

 

Star Trek II proved that the needs of the one can still outweigh the needs of the many or else there would not have been a Star Trek III and onwards, so I can be happy knowing I'm right even if we lack the many.

 

Mark, this doesn't mean I'm going to see you in a trekkie outfit at the next show, does it?

 

Pretty sure not.

[Dad&Son-migration]

Good debate going on.... I for one don't mind pressing nor do I believe it is a form of restoration. I admire that Matt would come and discuss it in a heated arena. Whether collectors like it or not it is a big part of the back issue $$$ in the hobby. If it's disclosed then more power to buyer and seller. It will become just as common place in the hobby and fall into it's niche in the market. What is inevitable is that even pressed books can't avoid a crash in prices if the bubble bursts. If I bought a book that was graded 9.8 and it wasn't disclosed as being pressed. I personally wouldn't sweat it IMHO. I believe what Mark is doing by adding ethics to the hobby is great though and I fully accept that side and wish people would be honest.

[Red Hook]

Whatever the reason they use it, the point is that the limited facts do not bear it out. Whether that means the seller and the person on the message board both have a mistaken belief in what pressing will do to the resale value of a book, I don't know. I suspect that fear of the "unknown" is a good part of why some sellers don't disclose though.

 

Scott, I encourage you to research this issue further. Having followed a large number of auctions from Spectre52, I am of the opinion that said seller achieves less-than-GPA average prices for substantially more than half his high grade books. And this is with merely scattered knowledge that said seller works on the books he sells. I differ in opinion from you, and suspect that if pressing and non-disassembly cleaning were explicitly disclosed for books being auctioned on a routine basis, the price differential between "virgin" and "worked on" books would be readily apparent.

 

And here again, is a chance to think outside the box. I think the following is a credible scenario....

 

1. Matt Nelson (as an example only) presses a book and offers it for sale.

2. In his auction, he discloses the fact that he himself did the work and he offers a 100% lifetime

guarantee on his work. He also carefully explains that the book was originally a toughly graded

9.4 and he applied some gentle localized pressing to help it reach it's current 9.6 grade.

3. The buyers looking at his auction receive all the available info on the book, are comfortable

bidding on the book, are assured that the work was done by a leading expert....and the book

returns a comfortable profit to Matt.

 

Result? Matt's happy. The buyer is happy. The "vast minority" who wish not to add pressed books to their collections can safely pass the auction by. The hobby is a better place for a more open transaction. And the blocks have been knocked out from under any conspiracy theories.

 

Unless there is an attempt at a real solution, I don't think this controversy is going away soon.

[FFB]

The many outweigh the few. So that makes everything A O K , Gotcha.

 

If Matt wated to reply to my post he could have, but thanks for filling the class in on what we already know.

 

 

Ze-

 

Ze, I can barely type fast enough with all of these posts coming in! I've already answered your question, so I'm moving on to others.

 

The only way the few are right is if they become the many...this is Mark's dream anyway.

 

Star Trek II proved that the needs of the one can still outweigh the needs of the many or else there would not have been a Star Trek III and onwards, so I can be happy knowing I'm right even if we lack the many.

 

Star Trek II proved that? Well SHEE-OOOT, I am convinced now. Matt Nelson, you are scum if you don't do what Star Trek II tells you to do.

 

You do know that is where the language Kenny was using came from? No, probably not. Too sophisticated.

 

Actually, I haven't seen Star Trek II since I was a kid, on that southern California precursor to cable TV, "ON TV."

[esquirecomics]

Whatever the reason they use it, the point is that the limited facts do not bear it out. Whether that means the seller and the person on the message board both have a mistaken belief in what pressing will do to the resale value of a book, I don't know. I suspect that fear of the "unknown" is a good part of why some sellers don't disclose though.

 

Scott, I encourage you to research this issue further. Having followed a large number of auctions from Spectre52, I am of the opinion that said seller achieves less-than-GPA average prices for substantially more than half his high grade books. And this is with merely scattered knowledge that said seller works on the books he sells. I differ in opinion from you, and suspect that if pressing and non-disassembly cleaning were explicitly disclosed for books being auctioned on a routine basis, the price differential between "virgin" and "worked on" books would be readily apparent.

 

And here again, is a chance to think outside the box. I think the following is a credible scenario....

 

1. Matt Nelson (as an example only) presses a book and offers it for sale.

2. In his auction, he discloses the fact that he himself did the work and he offers a 100% lifetime

guarantee on his work. He also carefully explains that the book was originally a toughly graded

9.4 and he applied some gentle localized pressing to help it reach it's current 9.6 grade.

3. The buyers looking at his auction receive all the available info on the book, are comfortable

bidding on the book, are assured that the work was done by a leading expert....and the book

returns a comfortable profit to Matt.

 

Result? Matt's happy. The buyer is happy. The "vast minority" who wish not to add pressed books to their collections can safely pass the auction by. The hobby is a better place for a more open transaction. And the blocks have been knocked out from under any conspiracy theories.

 

Unless there is an attempt at a real solution, I don't think this controversy is going away soon.

 

That is a perfect scenario. I'm all for it.

 

That is why I made the genuine and sincere offer to Matt, which no doubt he inadvertently overlooked amidst so many postings today, to work with him and educate the community and destigmatize restoration and other manipulation techniques to achieve the scenario you described.

 

You with me on this Brad?

 

Anyone else?

[FFB]

And I didn't say "groundswell" which implies a significant and quick increasing concern. I just said that the numbers are increasing. The membership of the NOD, which is somewhere around 25 and always available on the website (we don't hide identities, everything is out in the open), is not necessarily reflective of this fact. Many people on the CGC boards, including posting in this thread, have offered comments reflective of the NOD philosophy but they are not NOD members for one reason or the other.

groundswell was a comment you had made some time ago in another post. I think transition was another. If NOD is not reflecting this "fact", then what evidence do you have to support so called fact?

 

I'm sure if I used the term groundswell, which is entirely possible, it was to denote the potential future and not necessary reflective of the present. Transition remains apt. The existence of the NOD is certainly reflective of a "transition", but not a groundswell. At least not yet.

 

To take it one step further, how is this different than Harley Yee buying your book for $1000 and marking it up to $2000 on his wall?

 

Because Harley didn't manipulate the book.

 

This comparison was made when I was under the impression that Bob was upset because somebody was making money off of him. I digress.

 

No problem. I understood what was causing Bob's concern given that it is indicative of why there exists so much controversy. That is what prompted my exact comments in response to yours. Perhaps now that you understand our concerns you can understand the controversy better.

 

BTW, unlike FFB, I won't jump on you for articulating a point that was misinterpreting someone else's post or be condescending about it. Hi Scott!

 

Hi Mark! How ya doing, buddy!

[Dad&Son-migration]

You with me on this Brad?

 

Anyone else?

 

I second it !!!

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Anyone else?

 

Nah, it makes too much sense. Count me out.

[Foolkiller]

I'm just going to say this: Wouldn't this debate a heckuva lot easier if you disclosed and ended the debate? If the sales data available says disclosure of pressing does not really impact sales, why not do it and end the entire controversey and take the teeth out of the other side's argument.

 

I've maintained that it doesn't matter to most whether a book is pressed or not.

 

Nor do I feel it should be "mandatory" but I think it could be ended Matt if say, you started disclosing whether or not a book has been pressed. Then if the books have done just as well, it certainly would force the "disclosure" crew to be satisfied, and you would have the evidence that indicates that pressing has little impact on most collectors buying habits.

[qualitycomix]

I'm just going to say this: Wouldn't this debate a heckuva lot easier if you disclosed and ended the debate? If the sales data available says disclosure of pressing does not really impact sales, why not do it and end the entire controversey and take the teeth out of the other side's argument.

 

I've maintained that it doesn't matter to most whether a book is pressed or not.

 

Nor do I feel it should be "mandatory" but I think it could be ended Matt if say, you started disclosing whether or not a book has been pressed. Then if the books have done just as well, it certainly would force the "disclosure" crew to be satisfied, and you would have the evidence that indicates that pressing has little impact on most collectors buying habits.

 

 

I agree. Maybe Matt could "sacrifice" a month's worth of books and show what pressed books do vs. non pressed books. So Matt, wanna be the guinea pig?

[FFB]

I'm just going to say this: Wouldn't this debate a heckuva lot easier if you disclosed and ended the debate? If the sales data available says disclosure of pressing does not really impact sales, why not do it and end the entire controversey and take the teeth out of the other side's argument.

 

I've maintained that it doesn't matter to most whether a book is pressed or not.

 

Nor do I feel it should be "mandatory" but I think it could be ended Matt if say, you started disclosing whether or not a book has been pressed. Then if the books have done just as well, it certainly would force the "disclosure" crew to be satisfied, and you would have the evidence that indicates that pressing has little impact on most collectors buying habits.

 

 

I agree. Maybe Matt could "sacrifice" a month's worth of books and show what pressed books do vs. non pressed books. So Matt, wanna be the guinea pig?

 

What about the NOD dealers? Aren't the other NOD guys selling books with disclosure and keeping track of results like you did? Seems like we should have more than just one seller's data points if we're going to try to piece together a real sense of what the market thinks of restored books.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I think it's interesting. I thought the idea of barcodes on the interior paper that can only be made visible under ultraviolet light would be a great solution to the resub problem. The response I saw was that no one wanted the books to be touched. But they don't mind their books being put into a press?

 

I think that if most buyers and sellers don't mind their books being put into a press, then they wouldn't mind the barcode idea. But maybe the correlation isn't there?

 

Brent, I have issues with your phrase "the resub problem." It's an integral part of a grading service in all industries. Like it or hate it, it's not a problem.

 

I guess that depends on whether you get stuck paying top dollar for the massaged, cajoled, "full potential realized", and now fully stigmatized book that knowledgable collectors wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. This practice of resubbing anything that moves only works as long as their is a greater fool out there to buy your wares. The supply of those people is not endless.

 

Let's look at just some of the high grade Silver collectors/Forumites who have moved away from collecting in the few years I have been here: Fantastic_Four, Drummy, SFilosa, BleekerBob, HooDeeDoo. How many people have come in to replace the thousands, nay, tens of thousands of dollars those guys spent a month on quality books?

 

Even guys like Bob (Namisgr) who have stuck with and continue collecting have been given an first-hand education into what the certified market really entails. (Not to speak for you Bob, but just from my lone perspective, you seem to be a little more angrier about the sad state of this hobby then you used to be).

 

Look at all the great books out there on the various Dealer sites, inventory is as high in quality material as ever. If you had the money, you could virtually build complete runs of any Marvel title you wanted. So, where is the new blood who is willing and able to do that? I am sure there are some that are able, but many fewer who are willing.

 

Maybe, just maybe, the incremental changes in this hobby are indeed having a cumulative effect, and those closest to the market and incapable of seeing the "big picture".

[Dad&Son-migration]

Pressed books aren't targeted to the dealers who are looking to buy and flip for a profit... they're flooding the market to fill the demand of the label chasers!!!

[FFB]

I think it's interesting. I thought the idea of barcodes on the interior paper that can only be made visible under ultraviolet light would be a great solution to the resub problem. The response I saw was that no one wanted the books to be touched. But they don't mind their books being put into a press?

 

I think that if most buyers and sellers don't mind their books being put into a press, then they wouldn't mind the barcode idea. But maybe the correlation isn't there?

 

Brent, I have issues with your phrase "the resub problem." It's an integral part of a grading service in all industries. Like it or hate it, it's not a problem.

 

I guess that depends on whether you get stuck paying top dollar for the massaged, cajoled, "full potential realized", and now fully stigmatized book that knowledgable collectors wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. This practice of resubbing anything that moves only works as long as their is a greater fool out there to buy your wares. The supply of those people is not endless.

 

I consider myself about as knowledgeable a collector as anyone when it comes to restoration and I would not pay less for a pressed book if it was a book that I otherwise wanted. Given the rising prices on books, I am sure I'm not alone.

 

Let's look at just some of the high grade Silver collectors/Forumites who have moved away from collecting in the few years I have been here: Fantastic_Four, Drummy, SFilosa, BleekerBob, HooDeeDoo. How many people have come in to replace the thousands, nay, tens of thousands of dollars those guys spent a month on quality books?

 

If these guys took so much of the market's buying power with them, why are prices on high grade stuff still going up? And how many of those guys left the hobby because of pressing? I know Drummy didn't. He just adjusted his buying due to the rising costs of what he previously collected. Filosa also didn't stop buying because of pressing, and I am sure that Fantastic_Four also did not. I believe Bleeker_Bob was back in the hobby briefly then left a few months later and that his fiancee's (now his wife's) complaints about his spending had more to do with his curbed buying than anything else. I don't know HooDeeHoo, so can't speak to his circumstances -- but my recollection is that he disappeared from these forums long before the pressing issue ever became a popular topic among some of the posters.

 

Even guys like Bob (Namisgr) who have stuck with and continue collecting have been given an first-hand education into what the certified market really entails. (Not to speak for you Bob, but just from my lone perspective, you seem to be a little more angrier about the sad state of this hobby then you used to be).

 

Look at all the great books out there on the various Dealer sites, inventory is as high in quality material as ever. If you had the money, you could virtually build complete runs of any Marvel title you wanted. So, where is the new blood who is willing and able to do that?

 

This has been the case for years. One of the reasons I stopped collecting Spider-Man in high grade was because someone pointed out to me several years ago that these books are not rare, are almost always available in high grade, and the only obstacle to acquiring a complete, high grade set of Spider-Man books was one's budget.

 

And yet, despite my shift in collecting focus, the Spider-Man market has done fine without me.

 

Maybe, just maybe, the incremental changes in this hobby are indeed having a cumulative effect, and those closest to the market and incapable of seeing the "big picture".

 

When are we going to see the price drops that come with this realization of "the big picture"?