Manufactured Gold

[Matt Nelson]

No, Matt.

 

The bottom line here is that until one of the high volume, high profile pressers starts advertising the fact that their books are pressed, then the claims that no one cares can only be seen as self-serving pablum.

 

It's clear that you obviously think it's risky from a financial standpoint to do it.

 

I agree. I think it would be financial suicide.

 

That's bull. The seller is irrelevent in the matter. I thought this experiment was about whether disclosed pressings sold for the same or less. Sounds to me like you're trying to lure me into some lame-azz trap to proclaim that yes! I will get less for my books if I disclose!

 

Brad, you made your mind up about me and pressing a long, long time ago. You are not interested in my opinion or any experiment. You just want to see me fail. That's a sucky feeling, let me tell you.

 

Matt -- generally I am on your side, but I disagree with the fact that there's nothing for sellers to gain here. I don't think you have to "prove" anything. But... look, people will continue to talk more and more and more. There's at least some minor action being taken. The dealers are at least concerned enough to be talking about it at cons and off the boards and amongst themselves. Now, if it's true you guys don't care, then answering the points here on the boards is kind of a waste of your time. You may as well adopt the point of view that nobody cares what these guys think, they're all clueless, and keep plowing ahead.

 

But that's not what's going on -- and you can see it when you talk to dealers at shows. They are paying attention.

 

Saying there's nothing to prove is like when defendants claim they have an affirmative defense in a criminal trial but say, well I have nothing to prove, the burden is all on the prosecution. Sometimes it helps to put the defense on, and other times it helps to say absolutely nothing at all. Where the defense goes south is when they start talking and say the wrong thing, and instead of going full on, decide to make a few comments but never truly complete their defense.

 

Translation, if you believe in your point of view, I'd either stop talking now and let the endless debate continue that goes nowhere with no teeth -- or stick it to the other side and prove that pressing does not bother the bulk of customers out there, disclosed or undisclosed.

 

Given my opinion of the matter, I guess I should take your advice and stop going on about it. I'd like to think I get somewhere explaining myself on the boards, but when the pile-on like this happens, it gets frustrating. Every time I get on here, I start off really trying to be helpful, but inevitably it turns into a brawl. Best to just stay out of it, I suppose.

[nik]

I enjoy reading your posts and hope you still continue to post

[Flaming_Telepath]

Given my opinion of the matter, I guess I should take your advice and stop going on about it. I'd like to think I get somewhere explaining myself on the boards, but when the pile-on like this happens, it gets frustrating. Every time I get on here, I start off really trying to be helpful, but inevitably it turns into a brawl. Best to just stay out of it, I suppose.

 

I don't think anyone wants it to be a brawl, and some of the information you have shared is both informative and useful to all.

 

However, until and unless you have the courage of your convictions and are prepared to walk the walk, you will get set upon.

 

It is as simple as this....if you honestly believe there is no stigma attached to pressing, and you believe that there is no market resistance to pressing, proactively disclose which books have been pressed when you list them on eBay.

 

Very simple. Really.

[Red Hook]

What brawl?

[Red Hook]

 

Matt -- generally I am on your side, but I disagree with the fact that there's nothing for sellers to gain here. I don't think you have to "prove" anything. But... look, people will continue to talk more and more and more. There's at least some minor action being taken. The dealers are at least concerned enough to be talking about it at cons and off the boards and amongst themselves. Now, if it's true you guys don't care, then answering the points here on the boards is kind of a waste of your time. You may as well adopt the point of view that nobody cares what these guys think, they're all clueless, and keep plowing ahead.

 

But that's not what's going on -- and you can see it when you talk to dealers at shows. They are paying attention.

 

Saying there's nothing to prove is like when defendants claim they have an affirmative defense in a criminal trial but say, well I have nothing to prove, the burden is all on the prosecution. Sometimes it helps to put the defense on, and other times it helps to say absolutely nothing at all. Where the defense goes south is when they start talking and say the wrong thing, and instead of going full on, decide to make a few comments but never truly complete their defense.

 

Translation, if you believe in your point of view, I'd either stop talking now and let the endless debate continue that goes nowhere with no teeth -- or stick it to the other side and prove that pressing does not bother the bulk of customers out there, disclosed or undisclosed.

 

That's a pretty darn good post.

[Filter81]

Yeah, does anyone else notice that my diehard fans are all posting right now! Every single one of them! Talk about the deck stacked against me....yikes

 

Hey, speaking of which, where's my fav fan, Mark???

 

Matt, for what its worth I wouldn't take any of it personally. I don't think there's anybody on this board hoping that you fail at anything.

 

I think anyone who can look at this from an unbiased viewpoint will admit that you have more knowledge about comic books than the vast majority of people on this message board. Also, I think it is obvious that you have a passion for the hobby beyond just the money. And this is something that can not be said about many dealers. (I think this is evidenced by all the work you have put in to researching all the different pedigrees.. not just for your book but even the information you put on your website going way back)

 

But for some people, the clean/press/resubmit game that is being played can be very frustrating. At some point, it was decided that in our hobby, it is dishonest and frowned upon to not disclose resto work that has been done. (Whether that work is a small dot of color touch, or whether the entire book has work done to it.) I'm sure you yourself, would never color touch a book and then try to sell it as unrestored.

 

I realize that pressing is not currently considered by CGC to be restoration. But some people (the percentage of whom is clearly up for debate) do consider pressing to be restoration and want to know if a book has been pressed prior to purchase. Remember, there was a point in time where restoration did not affect the value of a book. (And from what I've been told there was even a point in time where really nicely restored books would sell for a premium over unrestored books because they looked better) Can anyone guarantee that in 30 years pressed books won't be frowned upon in the same way that restored books are frowned upon today, knowing that peoples' opinions can change? (What if at some point in the future it somehow becomes possible to detect which books have been pressed and which haven't?)

 

There are people in this hobby, who for whatever reason, at some point in time decided they do not want to own books that have been messed with in any way. (whether it be color touch, tear seals, cleaning, pressing, whatever.. they only want to own 100% original untouched books) Is it really fair to say to these people... "tough.. thats not the way things are anymore. I don't care how long you have been collecting, or how passionate you are about the hobby. If you only want to buy completely untouched books, there is no longer a place for you in the hobby, and you'd better stop collecting immediately"?

 

I think what is frustrating is that all of the dealers who routinely have books pressed claim that they shouldn't have to disclose it, and their reasoning is usually something along the lines of "I don't need to disclose it because nobody cares anyway". And yet.. the truth is, if people didn't care, if pressed books weren't worth less than non-pressed books, there would be no reason for these dealers not to disclose everything to the "small minority" of people that do care. It really seems like one of the main reasons dealers choose not to disclose when books have been pressed, is because whether they will admit it or not, they know that people do care, and that disclosing this information will affect what books will sell for. (And if this is true, how fair is it to not disclose the information, then sell a book to someone who thinks the book is better than it is, and watch the buyer lose money when they try to sell it?)

 

Everybody in the hobby has a different threshold of what they personally find acceptable before considering a book to be restored. (I personally couldn't care less if people want to press 9.6 bronze age books into 9.8 bronze age books. I think there are so many of those books out there that it really doesn't make a difference. I do however, have a problem when an 8.5 pedigreed Sensation 1 is cleaned and pressed into a 9.2 non-pedigreed sensation 1.) I personally think pressing is going to drastically change the high grade GA market and have started selling my collection accordingly. Which is quite depressing for me actually, as I really enjoyed owning these books.

 

None of these thoughts are directed at you personally by the way Matt, because I know you are just playing by the rules as they currently exist in the hobby today. (And even go one step beyond some dealers, by offering to disclose whether or not a book has been pressed, if someone asks) I think the only reason some negativity has been thrown your way, is that people are upset and you are the only pro-pressing dealer with the guts to argue your point on these message boards. Personally, I think that if someone from Heritage or Comiclink had the guts to come onto these boards and debate the subject of pressing, they'd get attacked much worse than you.

[THE_BEYONDER]

IMO....structural manipulation without upfront disclosure is dishonest. Plain & simple.

[ciorac]

Yeah, does anyone else notice that my diehard fans are all posting right now! Every single one of them! Talk about the deck stacked against me....yikes

 

Hey, speaking of which, where's my fav fan, Mark???

 

 

I realize that pressing is not currently considered by CGC to be restoration. But some people (the percentage of whom is clearly up for debate) do consider pressing to be restoration and want to know if a book has been pressed prior to purchase. Remember, there was a point in time where restoration did not affect the value of a book. (And from what I've been told there was even a point in time where really nicely restored books would sell for a premium over unrestored books because they looked better) Can anyone guarantee that in 30 years pressed books won't be frowned upon in the same way that restored books are frowned upon today, knowing that peoples' opinions can change? (What if at some point in the future it somehow becomes possible to detect which books have been pressed and which haven't?)

 

 

 

None of these thoughts are directed at you personally by the way Matt, because I know you are just playing by the rules as they currently exist in the hobby today. (And even go one step beyond some dealers, by offering to disclose whether or not a book has been pressed, if someone asks) I think the only reason some negativity has been thrown your way, is that people are upset and you are the only pro-pressing dealer with the guts to argue your point on these message boards. Personally, I think that if someone from Heritage or Comiclink had the guts to come onto these boards and debate the subject of pressing, they'd get attacked much worse than you.

 

Adam, I think you have gotten to the root of the matter.

 

As I indicated in earlier posts in this thread, I think ANYTHING substantively done to a book that is done with the intention of improving the book, is restoration. That is my view. I know many, many who would disagree with me, great! Good for them. Having said that I also reiterate that I don't mind restored books. In fact I actively seek them out in big keys so I can afford them.

 

But, what is critical to understand is that Matt is playing by the rules. If CGC is the grading authority, and they say it is NOT RESTORED, then it is NOT RESTORED. I disagree, but that is the reality of the way the rules of the game are now. If you don't like it, take it up with CGC not Matt.

 

I think the tuck rule *spoon* sucks in football. This weekend there was an NFL game where the QB CLEARLY was trying to tuck the ball away, and his arm was hit, and he fumbled it. The other team recovered. The Refs reviewed the play and ruled it was an "incompete pass" since his arm was going forward. It is a lousy rule. But as they play the game now, it is the rule.

 

So, using this scenario for pressing and Matt. You think the QB should have gone to the refs and said, "I was trying to tuck the ball away and I fumbled, please award the ball to the other team". You (not you personally Adam, the ones that are asking him) are asking Matt to do the same thing. You want him to disclose to all potential buyers that something the rules say was not restoration was done to the book and potentially award the book to the buyer at a discount. Sorry, not the way things work. The rules are what they are and you can't fault a guy for playing by them.

 

So, call the refs (CGC) and make your case. If they change the rules then I think Matt would play by them.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Following the logic of your analogy, it would necessarily follow that noone should be allowed to complain about the tuck rule.

[ciorac]

Following the logic of your analogy, it would necessarily follow that noone should be allowed to complain about the tuck rule.

 

Yes, but you should complain to the competition committee or the senior referee, not the players!

[THE_BEYONDER]

Following the logic of your analogy, it would necessarily follow that noone should be allowed to complain about the tuck rule.

 

Yes, but you should complain to the competition committee or the senior referee, not the players!

 

Why are you trying to paint Matt as a victim? He manipulates structural grades to garner multiples of his purchase price.

 

Poor baby.

 

Don't like the backlash...don't play the game.

[esquirecomics]

Yeah, does anyone else notice that my diehard fans are all posting right now! Every single one of them! Talk about the deck stacked against me....yikes

 

Hey, speaking of which, where's my fav fan, Mark???

 

But for some people, the clean/press/resubmit game that is being played can be very frustrating. At some point, it was decided that in our hobby, it is dishonest and frowned upon to not disclose resto work that has been done. (Whether that work is a small dot of color touch, or whether the entire book has work done to it.) I'm sure you yourself, would never color touch a book and then try to sell it as unrestored.

 

I realize that pressing is not currently considered by CGC to be restoration. But some people (the percentage of whom is clearly up for debate) do consider pressing to be restoration and want to know if a book has been pressed prior to purchase. Remember, there was a point in time where restoration did not affect the value of a book. (And from what I've been told there was even a point in time where really nicely restored books would sell for a premium over unrestored books because they looked better) Can anyone guarantee that in 30 years pressed books won't be frowned upon in the same way that restored books are frowned upon today, knowing that peoples' opinions can change? (What if at some point in the future it somehow becomes possible to detect which books have been pressed and which haven't?)

 

There are people in this hobby, who for whatever reason, at some point in time decided they do not want to own books that have been messed with in any way. (whether it be color touch, tear seals, cleaning, pressing, whatever.. they only want to own 100% original untouched books) Is it really fair to say to these people... "tough.. thats not the way things are anymore. I don't care how long you have been collecting, or how passionate you are about the hobby. If you only want to buy completely untouched books, there is no longer a place for you in the hobby, and you'd better stop collecting immediately"?

 

I think what is frustrating is that all of the dealers who routinely have books pressed claim that they shouldn't have to disclose it, and their reasoning is usually something along the lines of "I don't need to disclose it because nobody cares anyway". And yet.. the truth is, if people didn't care, if pressed books weren't worth less than non-pressed books, there would be no reason for these dealers not to disclose everything to the "small minority" of people that do care. It really seems like one of the main reasons dealers choose not to disclose when books have been pressed, is because whether they will admit it or not, they know that people do care, and that disclosing this information will affect what books will sell for. (And if this is true, how fair is it to not disclose the information, then sell a book to someone who thinks the book is better than it is, and watch the buyer lose money when they try to sell it?)

 

Everybody in the hobby has a different threshold of what they personally find acceptable before considering a book to be restored. (I personally couldn't care less if people want to press 9.6 bronze age books into 9.8 bronze age books. I think there are so many of those books out there that it really doesn't make a difference. I do however, have a problem when an 8.5 pedigreed Sensation 1 is cleaned and pressed into a 9.2 non-pedigreed sensation 1.) I personally think pressing is going to drastically change the high grade GA market and have started selling my collection accordingly. Which is quite depressing for me actually, as I really enjoyed owning these books.

 

Geez, finally getting a chance to read through everything since I read the boards last week. Man, leave for a few days and there are hundreds of posts to wade through! I'm in CA for the week for Camp Pendleton matters so not particularly focusing on the boards.

 

Don't worry Matt, I'm always close by somewhere.

 

Although for now I think I will sit this one out as others, such as Red and Filter (above), have generally said what I would have said. I will add, however, that the "rules" as they supposedly now exist were set in place/motion only recently by CGC (i.e., less than seven years time) and I see no reason why those "rules" cannot be changed as I don't recall electing CGC the absolute leader of our community.

 

And, I will take this opportunity to once again reiterate my standing offer to you Matt to publicly assist you in destigmatizing any type of restorative or enhancement methods so long as disclosure is also promoted.

[Flaming_Telepath]

You want him to disclose to all potential buyers that something the rules say was not restoration was done to the book and potentially award the book to the buyer at a discount. Sorry, not the way things work. The rules are what they are and you can't fault a guy for playing by them.

 

These rules, then?

 

Where can I look at them?

[ciorac]

Following the logic of your analogy, it would necessarily follow that noone should be allowed to complain about the tuck rule.

 

Yes, but you should complain to the competition committee or the senior referee, not the players!

 

Why are you trying to paint Matt as a victim? He manipulates structural grades to garner multiples of his purchase price.

 

Poor baby.

 

Don't like the backlash...don't play the game.

 

He is no victim. I do not attempt to paint him as such. I simply indicated I think your ire is misdirected.

 

There are multiple players in this manipulation.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Following the logic of your analogy, it would necessarily follow that noone should be allowed to complain about the tuck rule.

 

Yes, but you should complain to the competition committee or the senior referee, not the players!

 

Why are you trying to paint Matt as a victim? He manipulates structural grades to garner multiples of his purchase price.

 

Poor baby.

 

Don't like the backlash...don't play the game.

 

He is no victim. I do not attempt to paint him as such. I simply indicated I think your ire is misdirected.

 

There are multiple players in this manipulation.

 

And each & every one of them have the choice to play the game or not. If they choose to play, they have absolutely no right to complain about the backlash.

[Crackandpresstoan11]

No, Matt.

 

The bottom line here is that until one of the high volume, high profile pressers starts advertising the fact that their books are pressed, then the claims that no one cares can only be seen as self-serving pablum.

 

It's clear that you obviously think it's risky from a financial standpoint to do it.

 

I agree. I think it would be financial suicide.

 

That's bull. The seller is irrelevent in the matter. I thought this experiment was about whether disclosed pressings sold for the same or less. Sounds to me like you're trying to lure me into some lame-azz trap to proclaim that yes! I will get less for my books if I disclose!

 

Brad, you made your mind up about me and pressing a long, long time ago. You are not interested in my opinion or any experiment. You just want to see me fail. That's a sucky feeling, let me tell you.

 

Please add me to the list of people who want to see you fail.

[backtomarvel]

No, Matt.

 

The bottom line here is that until one of the high volume, high profile pressers starts advertising the fact that their books are pressed, then the claims that no one cares can only be seen as self-serving pablum.

 

It's clear that you obviously think it's risky from a financial standpoint to do it.

 

I agree. I think it would be financial suicide.

 

That's bull. The seller is irrelevent in the matter. I thought this experiment was about whether disclosed pressings sold for the same or less. Sounds to me like you're trying to lure me into some lame-azz trap to proclaim that yes! I will get less for my books if I disclose!

 

Brad, you made your mind up about me and pressing a long, long time ago. You are not interested in my opinion or any experiment. You just want to see me fail. That's a sucky feeling, let me tell you.

 

Matt -- generally I am on your side, but I disagree with the fact that there's nothing for sellers to gain here. I don't think you have to "prove" anything. But... look, people will continue to talk more and more and more. There's at least some minor action being taken. The dealers are at least concerned enough to be talking about it at cons and off the boards and amongst themselves. Now, if it's true you guys don't care, then answering the points here on the boards is kind of a waste of your time. You may as well adopt the point of view that nobody cares what these guys think, they're all clueless, and keep plowing ahead.

 

But that's not what's going on -- and you can see it when you talk to dealers at shows. They are paying attention.

 

Saying there's nothing to prove is like when defendants claim they have an affirmative defense in a criminal trial but say, well I have nothing to prove, the burden is all on the prosecution. Sometimes it helps to put the defense on, and other times it helps to say absolutely nothing at all. Where the defense goes south is when they start talking and say the wrong thing, and instead of going full on, decide to make a few comments but never truly complete their defense.

 

Translation, if you believe in your point of view, I'd either stop talking now and let the endless debate continue that goes nowhere with no teeth -- or stick it to the other side and prove that pressing does not bother the bulk of customers out there, disclosed or undisclosed.

 

Given my opinion of the matter, I guess I should take your advice and stop going on about it. I'd like to think I get somewhere explaining myself on the boards, but when the pile-on like this happens, it gets frustrating. Every time I get on here, I start off really trying to be helpful, but inevitably it turns into a brawl. Best to just stay out of it, I suppose.

 

Looks like I got in too late ... was going to ask your opinion of car dealers who purchase cars caught in a flood, do the equivalent of "cleaning and pressing" them and then selling them with "like new" prices and without disclosing the vehicle's history.

[ciorac]

No, Matt.

 

The bottom line here is that until one of the high volume, high profile pressers starts advertising the fact that their books are pressed, then the claims that no one cares can only be seen as self-serving pablum.

 

It's clear that you obviously think it's risky from a financial standpoint to do it.

 

I agree. I think it would be financial suicide.

 

That's bull. The seller is irrelevent in the matter. I thought this experiment was about whether disclosed pressings sold for the same or less. Sounds to me like you're trying to lure me into some lame-azz trap to proclaim that yes! I will get less for my books if I disclose!

 

Brad, you made your mind up about me and pressing a long, long time ago. You are not interested in my opinion or any experiment. You just want to see me fail. That's a sucky feeling, let me tell you.

 

Please add me to the list of people who want to see you fail.

 

You may have a long wait!!

 

As long as the cash keeps rolling in, nothing is likely to change...

[Dad&Son-migration]

I'm going to make a statement at the risk of being blasted but it's my opinion.

 

" I don't mind a book being pressed, nor do I consider it restoration and I admire Matt for at least coming here and taking abuse and will respect his choice whether disclosure is required on his part or not." I can't think of the difference between a book being professionally pressed or sitting in a stack of books for years and letting nature take it's course. In fact I'd love to experiment with it a little to see the different results that may be garnered. I will say, if I ever sold a book I pressed I would disclose the information but my stake in making a profit isn't my sole purpose. I think Filter81 touched on a good point on what will be acceptable as the hobby evolves. The standards will be ever changing to suit one group's interests from time to time. If the opponents of pressing suspect it to be happening with a dealer then don't buy the books from that particular dealer. We as collectors ultimately decide what we're willing to pay.

[ciorac]

I'm going to make a statement at the risk of being blasted but it's my opinion.

 

" I don't mind a book being pressed, nor do I consider it restoration and I admire Matt for at least coming here and taking abuse and will respect his choice whether disclosure is required on his part or not." I can't think of the difference between a book being professionally pressed or sitting in a stack of books for years and letting nature take it's course. In fact I'd love to experiment with it a little to see the different results that may be garnered. I will say, if I ever sold a book I pressed I would disclose the information but my stake in making a profit isn't my sole purpose. I think Filter81 touched on a good point on what will be acceptable as the hobby evolves. The standards will be ever changing to suit one group's interests from time to time. If the opponents of pressing suspect it to be happening with a dealer then don't buy the books from that particular dealer. We as collectors ultimately decide what we're willing to pay.

 

Nicely said Dad! Or is it Son?