Manufactured Gold

[ciorac]

No, Matt.

 

The bottom line here is that until one of the high volume, high profile pressers starts advertising the fact that their books are pressed, then the claims that no one cares can only be seen as self-serving pablum.

 

It's clear that you obviously think it's risky from a financial standpoint to do it.

 

I agree. I think it would be financial suicide.

 

That's bull. The seller is irrelevent in the matter. I thought this experiment was about whether disclosed pressings sold for the same or less. Sounds to me like you're trying to lure me into some lame-azz trap to proclaim that yes! I will get less for my books if I disclose!

 

Brad, you made your mind up about me and pressing a long, long time ago. You are not interested in my opinion or any experiment. You just want to see me fail. That's a sucky feeling, let me tell you.

 

Matt -- generally I am on your side, but I disagree with the fact that there's nothing for sellers to gain here. I don't think you have to "prove" anything. But... look, people will continue to talk more and more and more. There's at least some minor action being taken. The dealers are at least concerned enough to be talking about it at cons and off the boards and amongst themselves. Now, if it's true you guys don't care, then answering the points here on the boards is kind of a waste of your time. You may as well adopt the point of view that nobody cares what these guys think, they're all clueless, and keep plowing ahead.

 

But that's not what's going on -- and you can see it when you talk to dealers at shows. They are paying attention.

 

Saying there's nothing to prove is like when defendants claim they have an affirmative defense in a criminal trial but say, well I have nothing to prove, the burden is all on the prosecution. Sometimes it helps to put the defense on, and other times it helps to say absolutely nothing at all. Where the defense goes south is when they start talking and say the wrong thing, and instead of going full on, decide to make a few comments but never truly complete their defense.

 

Translation, if you believe in your point of view, I'd either stop talking now and let the endless debate continue that goes nowhere with no teeth -- or stick it to the other side and prove that pressing does not bother the bulk of customers out there, disclosed or undisclosed.

 

Given my opinion of the matter, I guess I should take your advice and stop going on about it. I'd like to think I get somewhere explaining myself on the boards, but when the pile-on like this happens, it gets frustrating. Every time I get on here, I start off really trying to be helpful, but inevitably it turns into a brawl. Best to just stay out of it, I suppose.

 

Looks like I got in too late ... was going to ask your opinion of car dealers who purchase cars caught in a flood, do the equivalent of "cleaning and pressing" them and then selling them with "like new" prices and without disclosing the vehicle's history.

 

CGC is supposed to be the industry equivalent of CarFax reports. They do not deem it important enough to note.

 

Also, a flooded car will in all probablility have mechanical issues and will break down. The blue label, undisclosed pressed book, should not break down, and in all probability will increase in value to the purchaser over time. Unlike the poor soon to be rusting Buick....

[Sal]

i'd like to thank Matt for having the sack to come here and actively engage in debate/discourse/discussion, considering he knows his opinion is in the minority here.

 

 

 

however, if you - talking to Matt here - are going to say that virtually no one out there cares about nondisclosed pressing, then the burden is on you to provide evidence to same.

 

truthfully, i think a lot of people don't mind if a book has been pressed - although there will be some who do, a great deal - but they do mind if a book has been pressed and sold without disclosure. it has that nasty tang of "being taken advantage of" that no one in this hobby is a fan of.

 

maybe a small analogy would help. think of comic dealers as used car salesmen. all we're wanting is for CGC to be CarFax, and for someone to give us all the information about a book before we buy, so that we don't feel like someone's put something over on us

 

[Dad&Son-migration]

Nicely said Dad! Or is it Son?

 

 

Just son, always been just son... added dear ol' dad for sentimental purposes as he started me down this collecting path of destruction.

[Sal]

CGC is supposed to be the industry equivalent of CarFax reports. They do not deem it important enough to note.

 

Also, a flooded car will in all probablility have mechanical issues and will break down. The blue label, undisclosed pressed book, should not break down, and in all probability will increase in value to the purchaser over time. Unlike the poor soon to be rusting Buick....

 

holy craap you're a genius. and i am too, by extension (see my post below yours)

[Red Hook]

Count me as one of the folks who simply want to see all the available information about a book up for sale made available to the prospective buyer. That's the only thing I want to see.

 

The buyer has the right to know exactly what he's being asked to pay for. I'll side with the buyer every time. If Matt (as an example) has pressed a book, the buyer has a right to know, whether or not Matt thinks it's restoration or not. Matt's theory on restoration isn't what's at issue. It's the buyers opinion. Revolutionary thought, isn't it?

 

If it's been cleaned, pressed, color-touched, disassmbled, reassembled, trimmed or used as a hotplate.....the buyer has a right to know. Then the buyer has complete freedom of choice to buy or not. End of story.

 

CGC was set up to make things easier. Not more complicated. It's definitely becoming more complicated again and that's a shame. They should note exactly everything they discover when they examine a book. Whether it ends up in a blue label or not.

 

My suggestion that restoration experts actually advertise the work they've done on books is more than a suggestion.

 

It's a challenge.

 

Matt certainly doesn't want to assume any monetary risk by publicly announcing his pressed books. Understandable. But he certainly has no problem expecting the buyer to assume the monetary risk. He should understand that buyers aren't going to assume that risk either. That would be a double standard, wouldn't it?

 

A typical buyer today who plunks down big money for a highgrade slab as we near the end of 2006 has got to feel like he walked into a casino in Atlantic City. Was the book pressed? What was it's former grade? Has it been disassembled? Is it a resub? Was it formerly a pedigree? Who decided this book was a pedigree to begin with?

 

Asking those question is not trying to be antagonistic. It's being a good consumer, doing his or her homework. Most dealers just want it all to go away. Thus their irritation.

 

So in the end....it's everyone for themselves. Except the money flows in one direction. From the customer to Matt. From the customer to CGC. From the customer to Heritage. From the customer to any dealer who plays the game that is currently in place.

 

I understand the reality of the situation better than any of these parties. They are offended when collectors protest. But it's about the money. On both ends of the equation. That, they should understand completely. It's nothing personal. It is....about the money. Their money....and ours.

 

Red

[codfish]

I'm going to make a statement at the risk of being blasted but it's my opinion.

 

" I don't mind a book being pressed, nor do I consider it restoration and I admire Matt for at least coming here and taking abuse and will respect his choice whether disclosure is required on his part or not." I can't think of the difference between a book being professionally pressed or sitting in a stack of books for years and letting nature take it's course. In fact I'd love to experiment with it a little to see the different results that may be garnered. I will say, if I ever sold a book I pressed I would disclose the information but my stake in making a profit isn't my sole purpose. I think Filter81 touched on a good point on what will be acceptable as the hobby evolves. The standards will be ever changing to suit one group's interests from time to time. If the opponents of pressing suspect it to be happening with a dealer then don't buy the books from that particular dealer. We as collectors ultimately decide what we're willing to pay.

 

Well .... some of indeed do not buy from businesses or individuals we suspect of doing stuff to books, be it pressing or otherwise. I am impartial to pressing but because I support disclosure I am lumped in with people who object to it. Come to think of it I don't know anyone the outright objects to pressing. In a world of so much subjectivity and negative opinons of working on books intentionally in any way the more that is out front the better. With all the cards on the table the only risk is the loss of a buyer. A seller never has to take less nor a buyer pay more.

 

What I find so sad in this endless debate is both side portray the other in a negative light. I probably have done it too. In the end all I wish is that people were upfront about the conditions of their books. After all to me the only reason to not disclose something is because you know it will net you less or no money. I have found that it is rare that no-one will want the book ... eventually. Like any other collectible you won't always make a profit.

 

Like I have said before too that I find it sad to hear about really nice high grade books getting worked on

[Wilson-migration]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Red Hook]

truthfully, i think a lot of people don't mind if a book has been pressed - although there will be some who do, a great deal - but they do mind if a book has been pressed and sold without disclosure. it has that nasty tang of "being taken advantage of" that no one in this hobby is a fan of.

 

maybe a small analogy would help. think of comic dealers as used car salesmen. all we're wanting is for CGC to be CarFax, and for someone to give us all the information about a book before we buy, so that we don't feel like someone's put something over on us

 

 

 

That has alot to do with it. No one want to be made a fool of. See my post above.

[Red Hook]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stop putting words in my mouth!

[qualitycomix]

Count me as one of the folks who simply want to see all the available information about a book up for sale made available to the prospective buyer. That's the only thing I want to see.

 

The buyer has the right to know exactly what he's being asked to pay for. I'll side with the buyer every time. If Matt (as an example) has pressed a book, the buyer has a right to know, whether or not Matt thinks it's restoration or not. Matt's theory on restoration isn't what's at issue. It's the buyers opinion. Revolutionary thought, isn't it?

 

If it's been cleaned, pressed, color-touched, disassmbled, reassembled, trimmed or used as a hotplate.....the buyer has a right to know. Then the buyer has complete freedom of choice to buy or not. End of story.

 

CGC was set up to make things easier. Not more complicated. It's definitely becoming more complicated again and that's a shame. They should note exactly everything they discover when they examine a book. Whether it ends up in a blue label or not.

 

My suggestion that restoration experts actually advertise the work they've done on books is more than a suggestion.

 

It's a challenge.

 

Matt certainly doesn't want to assume any monetary risk by publicly announcing his pressed books. Understandable. But he certainly has no problem expecting the buyer to assume the monetary risk. He should understand that buyers aren't going to assume that risk either. That would be a double standard, wouldn't it?

 

A typical buyer today who plunks down big money for a highgrade slab as we near the end of 2006 has got to feel like he walked into a casino in Atlantic City. Was the book pressed? What was it's former grade? Has it been disassembled? Is it a resub? Was it formerly a pedigree? Who decided this book was a pedigree to begin with?

 

Asking those question is not trying to be antagonistic. It's being a good consumer, doing his or her homework. Most dealers just want it all to go away. Thus their irritation.

 

So in the end....it's everyone for themselves. Except the money flows in one direction. From the customer to Matt. From the customer to CGC. From the customer to Heritage. From the customer to any dealer who plays the game that is currently in place.

 

I understand the reality of the situation better than any of these parties. They are offended when collectors protest. But it's about the money. On both ends of the equation. That, they should understand completely. It's nothing personal. It is....about the money. Their money....and ours.

 

Red

 

Red,

 

I've read a lot of the 17000+ posts that you've made on the boards and this one has to rank as one of your top 10, it may have even cracked the top 5. You said it better than I ever could have.

 

Brent

[tth2]

I was responding to Tim's reference that there was material regarding the McLaughlin books on your site, which is not true.

The Scoop article that you linked says "Comicpedigrees.com also features updates on the Davis Crippen/D copy collection and the John McLaughlin Mile High collection which were recently auctioned off by Heritage Auctions Galleries." I remembered seeing it on Comicpedigrees.com at the time, so didn't check the website to see if the references were still there.

 

The point, which you seem to be missing, is that listing books on the site doesn't automatically mean that Matt is involved with selling or pressing the books (which is clearly the road you were going down). In the case of the Don Rosa books, it is pretty clearly stated that Matt is involved in owning and selling those books. My impression is that Matt's site is simply trying to be an aggregator of all news related to pedigreed comics. He's probably doing it to help build attention for his book on pedigrees, but last time I checked that wasn't a crime, even on these boards.

[ciorac]

Count me as one of the folks who simply want to see all the available information about a book up for sale made available to the prospective buyer. That's the only thing I want to see.

 

The buyer has the right to know exactly what he's being asked to pay for. I'll side with the buyer every time. If Matt (as an example) has pressed a book, the buyer has a right to know, whether or not Matt thinks it's restoration or not. Matt's theory on restoration isn't what's at issue. It's the buyers opinion. Revolutionary thought, isn't it?

 

If it's been cleaned, pressed, color-touched, disassmbled, reassembled, trimmed or used as a hotplate.....the buyer has a right to know. Then the buyer has complete freedom of choice to buy or not. End of story.

 

CGC was set up to make things easier. Not more complicated. It's definitely becoming more complicated again and that's a shame. They should note exactly everything they discover when they examine a book. Whether it ends up in a blue label or not.

 

My suggestion that restoration experts actually advertise the work they've done on books is more than a suggestion.

 

It's a challenge.

 

Matt certainly doesn't want to assume any monetary risk by publicly announcing his pressed books. Understandable. But he certainly has no problem expecting the buyer to assume the monetary risk. He should understand that buyers aren't going to assume that risk either. That would be a double standard, wouldn't it?

 

A typical buyer today who plunks down big money for a highgrade slab as we near the end of 2006 has got to feel like he walked into a casino in Atlantic City. Was the book pressed? What was it's former grade? Has it been disassembled? Is it a resub? Was it formerly a pedigree? Who decided this book was a pedigree to begin with?

 

Asking those question is not trying to be antagonistic. It's being a good consumer, doing his or her homework. Most dealers just want it all to go away. Thus their irritation.

 

So in the end....it's everyone for themselves. Except the money flows in one direction. From the customer to Matt. From the customer to CGC. From the customer to Heritage. From the customer to any dealer who plays the game that is currently in place.

 

I understand the reality of the situation better than any of these parties. They are offended when collectors protest. But it's about the money. On both ends of the equation. That, they should understand completely. It's nothing personal. It is....about the money. Their money....and ours.

 

Red

 

You are right Red. Absolutely right. But we can holler and yell and complain all we want, but until the rules change we just gotta deal with it. We can't demand Matt do anything other than what he does, and does very well. In his eyes, I assume, he is just making hay while the sun is shining. Some day it will cloud up again and he will adapt and find an alternative income to replace it.

 

By the way, I LOVE the hotplate reference! It immediately brings to mind Oklahoma Dave and his baked Detective #27! (It was undisclosed baking I might add). He nearly had me on that one, but Matt checked it out and discovered the baked on gloss.

[tth2]

Maybe because nobody else here is claiming that no-one in the 'real world' gives a good about whether a book has been pressed or not?

 

Y'know...money where your mouth is, and all that...

C'mon guys, you're turning this into another "everyone gang up on Matt Nelson" thread. Matt has been much more open about his activities than just about anyone else in the hobby and has participated on these boards and made his position clear. That position doesn't agree with yours. Deal with it.

 

Just continuing to shout back that he's wrong, and why he's wrong, and hounding him for not agreeing with you, doesn't do any good. It's not going to change his position, and it's certainly going to disincentivize him and anyone else representing a different point of view from speaking on these boards.

[FlyingDonut]

I have an Amazing Spider-Man 300 that was bounced in shipping, creasing the top left corner. I believe, without hesitation, that this book can be pressed into a 9.8. I will offer this book up as a test case -

 

1. Matt, I'll send this book to you to be professionally pressed, and looked at.

2. I will get the book graded and slabbed by CGC

3. I will sell the book on eBay at the absolute height of Venom-ania next April, with big fat hairy screaming stuff all over the listing saying the books has been pressed.

4. I will donate whatever proceeds come out of the sale of the book to either HERO or CBLDF, whichever organization is *spoon* me off least at the time.

 

It is my strong belief that there will be absolutely no difference in price realized for this book versus another. The book sells for $160 or so raw now, so I figure a 9.8 is about a $1200 book, and will be higher next April. We can look at it then.

 

If this is acceptable, I'll post scans all along the way.

[awe4one]

Well Jim, as usual you want everything handed to you on a silver platter.

 

Hardly...what I want is for dealers like yourself to have the common courtesy as a seller to fully disclose upfront what work has been done on comics you sell. Press all the comics you want. I don't care. Just have the courtesy to say so without being asked...

 

You continually harp that customers outside this Forum don't care about pressed books and thus don't need to be told upfront. The reactions I've seen, and that includes almost 100% of the people that have sent me e-mails on this subject as a result of cruising my website and have never posted here as far as I know, say you're dead wrong.

 

You say you're trying to educate the people here and get "ganged up" on as a result..I see it as people trying to educate you from the other side of the resto/pressing debate...

 

Jim

[Monstro]

It is my strong belief that there will be absolutely no difference in price realized for this book versus another.

 

not unless cgc makes a notation about it on the label

[Forbush-Man]

Well Jim, as usual you want everything handed to you on a silver platter.

 

Hardly...what I want is for dealers like yourself to have the common courtesy as a seller to fully disclose upfront what work has been done on comics you sell. Press all the comics you want. I don't care. Just have the courtesy to say so without being asked...

 

 

Yep, that's all it would take for me to accept Matt's position: Full Disclosure. End of story.

 

Matt: If you have such a good, firm grip on the market.....and you say a pressed book will sell as well as an unpressed,... why not disclose the pressing?

 

It's the Non-Disclosure part I don't appreciate.

[Bronty]

Yeah, does anyone else notice that my diehard fans are all posting right now! Every single one of them! Talk about the deck stacked against me....yikes

 

Hey, speaking of which, where's my fav fan, Mark???

 

Matt, for what its worth I wouldn't take any of it personally. I don't think there's anybody on this board hoping that you fail at anything.

 

I think anyone who can look at this from an unbiased viewpoint will admit that you have more knowledge about comic books than the vast majority of people on this message board. Also, I think it is obvious that you have a passion for the hobby beyond just the money. And this is something that can not be said about many dealers. (I think this is evidenced by all the work you have put in to researching all the different pedigrees.. not just for your book but even the information you put on your website going way back)

 

But for some people, the clean/press/resubmit game that is being played can be very frustrating. At some point, it was decided that in our hobby, it is dishonest and frowned upon to not disclose resto work that has been done. (Whether that work is a small dot of color touch, or whether the entire book has work done to it.) I'm sure you yourself, would never color touch a book and then try to sell it as unrestored.

 

I realize that pressing is not currently considered by CGC to be restoration. But some people (the percentage of whom is clearly up for debate) do consider pressing to be restoration and want to know if a book has been pressed prior to purchase. Remember, there was a point in time where restoration did not affect the value of a book. (And from what I've been told there was even a point in time where really nicely restored books would sell for a premium over unrestored books because they looked better) Can anyone guarantee that in 30 years pressed books won't be frowned upon in the same way that restored books are frowned upon today, knowing that peoples' opinions can change? (What if at some point in the future it somehow becomes possible to detect which books have been pressed and which haven't?)

 

There are people in this hobby, who for whatever reason, at some point in time decided they do not want to own books that have been messed with in any way. (whether it be color touch, tear seals, cleaning, pressing, whatever.. they only want to own 100% original untouched books) Is it really fair to say to these people... "tough.. thats not the way things are anymore. I don't care how long you have been collecting, or how passionate you are about the hobby. If you only want to buy completely untouched books, there is no longer a place for you in the hobby, and you'd better stop collecting immediately"?

 

I think what is frustrating is that all of the dealers who routinely have books pressed claim that they shouldn't have to disclose it, and their reasoning is usually something along the lines of "I don't need to disclose it because nobody cares anyway". And yet.. the truth is, if people didn't care, if pressed books weren't worth less than non-pressed books, there would be no reason for these dealers not to disclose everything to the "small minority" of people that do care. It really seems like one of the main reasons dealers choose not to disclose when books have been pressed, is because whether they will admit it or not, they know that people do care, and that disclosing this information will affect what books will sell for. (And if this is true, how fair is it to not disclose the information, then sell a book to someone who thinks the book is better than it is, and watch the buyer lose money when they try to sell it?)

 

Everybody in the hobby has a different threshold of what they personally find acceptable before considering a book to be restored. (I personally couldn't care less if people want to press 9.6 bronze age books into 9.8 bronze age books. I think there are so many of those books out there that it really doesn't make a difference. I do however, have a problem when an 8.5 pedigreed Sensation 1 is cleaned and pressed into a 9.2 non-pedigreed sensation 1.) I personally think pressing is going to drastically change the high grade GA market and have started selling my collection accordingly. Which is quite depressing for me actually, as I really enjoyed owning these books.

 

None of these thoughts are directed at you personally by the way Matt, because I know you are just playing by the rules as they currently exist in the hobby today. (And even go one step beyond some dealers, by offering to disclose whether or not a book has been pressed, if someone asks) I think the only reason some negativity has been thrown your way, is that people are upset and you are the only pro-pressing dealer with the guts to argue your point on these message boards. Personally, I think that if someone from Heritage or Comiclink had the guts to come onto these boards and debate the subject of pressing, they'd get attacked much worse than you.

 

 

Great post filter. Well said.

[Bronty]

I'm going to make a statement at the risk of being blasted but it's my opinion.

 

" I don't mind a book being pressed, nor do I consider it restoration and I admire Matt for at least coming here and taking abuse and will respect his choice whether disclosure is required on his part or not." I can't think of the difference between a book being professionally pressed or sitting in a stack of books for years and letting nature take it's course. In fact I'd love to experiment with it a little to see the different results that may be garnered. I will say, if I ever sold a book I pressed I would disclose the information but my stake in making a profit isn't my sole purpose. I think Filter81 touched on a good point on what will be acceptable as the hobby evolves. The standards will be ever changing to suit one group's interests from time to time. If the opponents of pressing suspect it to be happening with a dealer then don't buy the books from that particular dealer. We as collectors ultimately decide what we're willing to pay.

 

But isn't pro pressing more like running a steaming iron (heat, moisture and pressure, not just pressure) over a book than just letting it sit in a stack? You wouldn't start ironing your silver age keys would you?

[Bronty]

I have an Amazing Spider-Man 300 that was bounced in shipping, creasing the top left corner. I believe, without hesitation, that this book can be pressed into a 9.8. I will offer this book up as a test case -

 

1. Matt, I'll send this book to you to be professionally pressed, and looked at.

2. I will get the book graded and slabbed by CGC

3. I will sell the book on eBay at the absolute height of Venom-ania next April, with big fat hairy screaming stuff all over the listing saying the books has been pressed.

4. I will donate whatever proceeds come out of the sale of the book to either HERO or CBLDF, whichever organization is *spoon* me off least at the time.

 

It is my strong belief that there will be absolutely no difference in price realized for this book versus another. The book sells for $160 or so raw now, so I figure a 9.8 is about a $1200 book, and will be higher next April. We can look at it then.

 

If this is acceptable, I'll post scans all along the way.

 

Of course there won't be a difference. People will see 9.8 on their label and bid accordingly just like they do in every other case of label chasing. To me that's not the point at all. The point is that as a buyer I should be able to know what I'm getting. I should be told if a book has tape, marker, foxing, pressing, whatever. And then its up to me to decide if i want the book. Just because two knucklehead labelchasers will pay the 9.8 price for a pressed book doesn't mean there aren't an equal or greater number of people who will stay away. What's more to the point is the type of situation that filter (?) mentioned earlier with someone's All Winners 1 sale being ruined by a book that was pressed into a higher grade making the untouched book look like a bad deal. Everyone will have to press the *spoon* out of any valuable book they own just to keep up and that really sucks for the people that don't care for the practice.

 

I wouldn't really give a *spoon* if it wasn't for the fact that the playing field is uneven. I guarantee you there are lots of people out there losing out by not being aware of the games being played and I have a real problem with that.