The monthly why you should use CGC instead of PGX thread with PICs

[RockMyAmadeus]

Unless you have an incredible memory or check records beforehand - I doubt anyone on the boards would grade every book in their collection the same way twice.

 

Well..I would, but that's because I take anal to an artform......

 

 

That's what she said.

 

 

 

 

 

 

See, I took the high road and kept it hetero.

 

I am nothing if not the consummate straight man.

 

(ooo! A DOUBLE pun! Man, I'm witty sometimes.)

[RockMyAmadeus]

Unless you have an incredible memory or check records beforehand - I doubt anyone on the boards would grade every book in their collection the same way twice.

 

Well..I would, but that's because I take anal to an artform......

 

 

If ever there was a sentence to take out of context...

 

I aim to please.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Unless you have an incredible memory or check records beforehand - I doubt anyone on the boards would grade every book in their collection the same way twice.

 

Well..I would, but that's because I take anal to an artform......

 

 

If ever there was a sentence to take out of context...

 

You're a funny guy beau.

 

Beau? BEAU??

 

Pfffft.

 

A more potent straight line, he couldn't HOPE to make up!

 

 

(man, I'm hitting 'em out of the park tonight...quick, someone respond with an impotence joke!)

[mschmidt]

Great info on this thread, by the original poster. It illustates to me what some have already mentioned. Grading is subjective and can and WILL change on the same book, when graded by different professionals on different days.

 

I do want to say that money wise, overall, it seems that buying select PGX graded books paid off in the long run.

 

I also want to say that the premise the original poster has throughout this thread is that CGC got it right and PGX did not. Why do "we" assume that? Couldn't it be that PGX got it more right and CGC got it less right? CGC has in the past designated books as being trimmed that the submitters swear they purchased off the stand as OO, and no trimming was possible in their opinions.

 

Going with the premise that CGC is the final authority in most cases (there are of course exceptions and mistakes by any and all companies), and that CGC gets it right when they disagree with PGX, is a mistaken placement of confidence.

 

But, all of my PGX books will be eventually CGC slabbed. But not because of confidence in CGC or lack thereof in PGX. Strictly because of future sales by my heirs. Heritage does not accept PGX books (as I understand it, they are associated in business with CGC).

 

Oh. One final point. If you think that CGC personal do not submit their own books to CGC to be graded, you are sadly mistaken.

 

Unless you have some actual evidence to back up this claim, I'd suggest you be very careful about making a statement like this - you're trying to cast doubt on CGC's reputation as an impartial grading service, and if I were them, I wouldn't hesitate to throw a libel lawsuit your way.

 

Not that I believe you, but still ...

[lizards2]

Great info on this thread, by the original poster. It illustates to me what some have already mentioned. Grading is subjective and can and WILL change on the same book, when graded by different professionals on different days.

 

I do want to say that money wise, overall, it seems that buying select PGX graded books paid off in the long run.

 

I also want to say that the premise the original poster has throughout this thread is that CGC got it right and PGX did not. Why do "we" assume that? Couldn't it be that PGX got it more right and CGC got it less right? CGC has in the past designated books as being trimmed that the submitters swear they purchased off the stand as OO, and no trimming was possible in their opinions.

 

Going with the premise that CGC is the final authority in most cases (there are of course exceptions and mistakes by any and all companies), and that CGC gets it right when they disagree with PGX, is a mistaken placement of confidence.

 

But, all of my PGX books will be eventually CGC slabbed. But not because of confidence in CGC or lack thereof in PGX. Strictly because of future sales by my heirs. Heritage does not accept PGX books (as I understand it, they are associated in business with CGC).

 

Oh. One final point. If you think that CGC personal do not submit their own books to CGC to be graded, you are sadly mistaken.

 

Unless you have some actual evidence to back up this claim, I'd suggest you be very careful about making a statement like this - you're trying to cast doubt on CGC's reputation as an impartial grading service, and if I were them, I wouldn't hesitate to throw a libel lawsuit your way.

 

Not that I believe you, but still ...

 

I thought that it was okay if they weren't actively selling, while employed. :shrug:

[mschmidt]

Great info on this thread, by the original poster. It illustates to me what some have already mentioned. Grading is subjective and can and WILL change on the same book, when graded by different professionals on different days.

 

I do want to say that money wise, overall, it seems that buying select PGX graded books paid off in the long run.

 

I also want to say that the premise the original poster has throughout this thread is that CGC got it right and PGX did not. Why do "we" assume that? Couldn't it be that PGX got it more right and CGC got it less right? CGC has in the past designated books as being trimmed that the submitters swear they purchased off the stand as OO, and no trimming was possible in their opinions.

 

Going with the premise that CGC is the final authority in most cases (there are of course exceptions and mistakes by any and all companies), and that CGC gets it right when they disagree with PGX, is a mistaken placement of confidence.

 

But, all of my PGX books will be eventually CGC slabbed. But not because of confidence in CGC or lack thereof in PGX. Strictly because of future sales by my heirs. Heritage does not accept PGX books (as I understand it, they are associated in business with CGC).

 

Oh. One final point. If you think that CGC personal do not submit their own books to CGC to be graded, you are sadly mistaken.

 

Unless you have some actual evidence to back up this claim, I'd suggest you be very careful about making a statement like this - you're trying to cast doubt on CGC's reputation as an impartial grading service, and if I were them, I wouldn't hesitate to throw a libel lawsuit your way.

 

Not that I believe you, but still ...

 

I thought that it was okay if they weren't actively selling, while employed. :shrug:

 

Having a CGC employee submit their own books for grading would be a massive conflict of interest.

[ignimbrite]

I am reasonably new to the PGX/CGC debate but I have looked over much of the background research and it does seem like something is 'not right' with the PGX business model. That said does taking books graded by PGX and then send them to CGC to show how different they are really prove anything? Hasn't anyone gotten back a book that was graded a few points higher or lower than they thought? Everyone knows CGC isn't perfect and it can never be as it is providing a service that relies on the qualitative judgement of individuals so how does taking books and showing someone else graded them different prove anything? I am not trying to 'start' anything, I am actually curious as to what people think about this.

 

(I also realize the missing of trimming in unacceptable and helps the CGC argument greatly).

[TeenTitans]

The good. The one and only book that graded the same with no caveats... PQ did just up one notch.

 

 

 

that is a nice comic cover, same grade also.

 

but grading is subjective

 

thanks for posting

[buttock]

Just to comment on the conclusions being drawn from this thread...

 

The "facts" - and remember this is all statistics of small numbers - ONLY suggest that CGC and PGX don't agree on grade. CGC doesn't agree on its own grades. I just got an email from a friend who re-subbed 8 books, all previously CGC graded. 6 of them went up in grade. As much as two points.

 

I'd also point out that grading a book between 4.0 and 7.5 is as subjective as it gets. At any given hour, ANY grader will vary there. I'd be hesitant to draw any conclusions from that.

 

My concern based on what you've shown is that by buying high-end CGC stuff (i.e. 9.4 or higher) I may not be getting what I pay for. Why is a PGX 8.0 a CGC 9.4, and why is a 9.0 a 9.6? Scary, no? I've already said this, but I just saw a 9.8 CGC book (mid-70s ASM) with 11 color-breaking creases on the spine. ELEVEN!

 

 

[telerites]

Just to comment on the conclusions being drawn from this thread...

 

The "facts" - and remember this is all statistics of small numbers - ONLY suggest that CGC and PGX don't agree on grade. CGC doesn't agree on its own grades. I just got an email from a friend who re-subbed 8 books, all previously CGC graded. 6 of them went up in grade. As much as two points.

 

 

I was wondering this. It seems I had seen some instances where CGC slabbed books were resubbed and came back with different grades. I could see lower grades or a tad bit higher but when you are talking about a 2 point increase

 

I would have guessed subjectivity wouldn't have such a large range in grades.

 

[Davenport]

 

Oh. One final point. If you think that CGC personal do not submit their own books to CGC to be graded, you are sadly mistaken.

 

Unless you have some actual evidence to back up this claim, I'd suggest you be very careful about making a statement like this - you're trying to cast doubt on CGC's reputation as an impartial grading service, and if I were them, I wouldn't hesitate to throw a libel lawsuit your way.

 

Not that I believe you, but still ...

If I remember someone official came on and said CGC employees could submit books they owned prior to employment. And explained that "commercially" caveat used whenever the prohibition is described:

 

"CGC employees are prohibited from commercially buying or selling comic books, eliminating any potential conflicts of interest. "

 

"CGC does not buy or sell comic books and does not have a financial interest in the comic books that we certify. In fact, employees of CGC are prohibited from buying and selling comic books commercially."

 

If I'm mis-remembering or if someone can locate that thread, please do so.

 

[rjpb]

I've already said this, but I just saw a 9.8 CGC book (mid-70s ASM) with 11 color-breaking creases on the spine. ELEVEN!

 

I will subjectively declare that the book is not an acceptable 9.8, sight unseen.

 

One of the problems with depending on a third party grader for grades is that in doing so, one abdicates the responsibility of grading books for themselves, thus it is incumbent upon such third party graders to maintain a great degree of consistency when evaluating books.

 

While there will always be room for subjective differences of opinion, even among those tasked with the grading, if the perception becomes that the standards of the grading service are too volatile then confidence in that service will weaken.

 

At this time, CGC is perceived by many as the final arbiter of a book's grade, and that is understandable if one only collects CGC encapsulated books, but while it is difficult to assess the condition of a book through plastic, let alone by way of a scan or photo, it is always advisable to actually look beyond the label when buying.

[capt_comics]

Just to comment on the conclusions being drawn from this thread...

 

The "facts" - and remember this is all statistics of small numbers - ONLY suggest that CGC and PGX don't agree on grade. CGC doesn't agree on its own grades. I just got an email from a friend who re-subbed 8 books, all previously CGC graded. 6 of them went up in grade. As much as two points.

 

I'd also point out that grading a book between 4.0 and 7.5 is as subjective as it gets. At any given hour, ANY grader will vary there. I'd be hesitant to draw any conclusions from that.

 

My concern based on what you've shown is that by buying high-end CGC stuff (i.e. 9.4 or higher) I may not be getting what I pay for. Why is a PGX 8.0 a CGC 9.4, and why is a 9.0 a 9.6? Scary, no? I've already said this, but I just saw a 9.8 CGC book (mid-70s ASM) with 11 color-breaking creases on the spine. ELEVEN!

 

 

I would agree.....these are the grades most people tend to have trouble with.

 

 

[buttock]

Just to comment on the conclusions being drawn from this thread...

 

The "facts" - and remember this is all statistics of small numbers - ONLY suggest that CGC and PGX don't agree on grade. CGC doesn't agree on its own grades. I just got an email from a friend who re-subbed 8 books, all previously CGC graded. 6 of them went up in grade. As much as two points.

 

 

I was wondering this. It seems I had seen some instances where CGC slabbed books were resubbed and came back with different grades. I could see lower grades or a tad bit higher but when you are talking about a 2 point increase

 

I would have guessed subjectivity wouldn't have such a large range in grades.

 

I should clarify that by "two points" I mean two notches on the CGC scale - i.e. 9.0 to 9.4, 8.5 to 9.2, etc.

[ChasingKingKirby]

Just to comment on the conclusions being drawn from this thread...

 

The "facts" - and remember this is all statistics of small numbers - ONLY suggest that CGC and PGX don't agree on grade. CGC doesn't agree on its own grades. I just got an email from a friend who re-subbed 8 books, all previously CGC graded. 6 of them went up in grade. As much as two points.

 

I'd also point out that grading a book between 4.0 and 7.5 is as subjective as it gets. At any given hour, ANY grader will vary there. I'd be hesitant to draw any conclusions from that.

 

My concern based on what you've shown is that by buying high-end CGC stuff (i.e. 9.4 or higher) I may not be getting what I pay for. Why is a PGX 8.0 a CGC 9.4, and why is a 9.0 a 9.6? Scary, no? I've already said this, but I just saw a 9.8 CGC book (mid-70s ASM) with 11 color-breaking creases on the spine. ELEVEN!

 

 

Wow! I can say definitely, that there aren't any on either the GR1 or ASM92. Both of these books were under graded by PGX. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. The 92 is almost flawless, it has a bindery tear on the LLC and a single NCB on the spine. The GR has some minor softness on a couple of the corners and a NCB or two on the spine. Grades are what I expected. That much I wholeheartedly believe, that and the missed restoration that makes me doubt any bronze age high-grade book graded by PGX and placed in a blue label. What you're saying is just downright horrible. ELEVEN CBC should never, ever make a 9.8. Do you have a link to this?

[rjpb]

Just to comment on the conclusions being drawn from this thread...

 

The "facts" - and remember this is all statistics of small numbers - ONLY suggest that CGC and PGX don't agree on grade. CGC doesn't agree on its own grades. I just got an email from a friend who re-subbed 8 books, all previously CGC graded. 6 of them went up in grade. As much as two points.

 

 

I was wondering this. It seems I had seen some instances where CGC slabbed books were resubbed and came back with different grades. I could see lower grades or a tad bit higher but when you are talking about a 2 point increase

 

I would have guessed subjectivity wouldn't have such a large range in grades.

 

I should clarify that by "two points" I mean two notches on the CGC scale - i.e. 9.0 to 9.4, 8.5 to 9.2, etc.

 

I'm not surprised, as many if not most books have a 2-3 grade range that reasonable people following the same standards could agree on, yet those same people will often pay widely differing prices for the same book depending on what the current encapsulated grade is.

[buttock]

Just to comment on the conclusions being drawn from this thread...

 

The "facts" - and remember this is all statistics of small numbers - ONLY suggest that CGC and PGX don't agree on grade. CGC doesn't agree on its own grades. I just got an email from a friend who re-subbed 8 books, all previously CGC graded. 6 of them went up in grade. As much as two points.

 

I'd also point out that grading a book between 4.0 and 7.5 is as subjective as it gets. At any given hour, ANY grader will vary there. I'd be hesitant to draw any conclusions from that.

 

My concern based on what you've shown is that by buying high-end CGC stuff (i.e. 9.4 or higher) I may not be getting what I pay for. Why is a PGX 8.0 a CGC 9.4, and why is a 9.0 a 9.6? Scary, no? I've already said this, but I just saw a 9.8 CGC book (mid-70s ASM) with 11 color-breaking creases on the spine. ELEVEN!

 

 

Wow! I can say definitely, that there aren't any on either the GR1 or ASM92. Both of these books were under graded by PGX. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. The 92 is almost flawless, it has a bindery tear on the LLC and a single NCB on the spine. The GR has some minor softness on a couple of the corners and a NCB or two on the spine. Grades are what I expected. That much I wholeheartedly believe, that and the missed restoration that makes me doubt any bronze age high-grade book graded by PGX and placed in a blue label. What you're saying is just downright horrible. ELEVEN CBC should never, ever make a 9.8. Do you have a link to this?

 

No link. This was in real life.

[buttock]

Just to comment on the conclusions being drawn from this thread...

 

The "facts" - and remember this is all statistics of small numbers - ONLY suggest that CGC and PGX don't agree on grade. CGC doesn't agree on its own grades. I just got an email from a friend who re-subbed 8 books, all previously CGC graded. 6 of them went up in grade. As much as two points.

 

 

I was wondering this. It seems I had seen some instances where CGC slabbed books were resubbed and came back with different grades. I could see lower grades or a tad bit higher but when you are talking about a 2 point increase

 

I would have guessed subjectivity wouldn't have such a large range in grades.

 

I should clarify that by "two points" I mean two notches on the CGC scale - i.e. 9.0 to 9.4, 8.5 to 9.2, etc.

 

I'm not surprised, as many if not most books have a 2-3 grade range that reasonable people following the same standards could agree on, yet those same people will often pay widely differing prices for the same book depending on what the current encapsulated grade is.

 

Yup. Silly to pay the multiples.

 

I think the more significant observation is not that the grades vary, but the manner in which they do. It's pretty unlikely -- given 8 books, with the options to go up, down, or stay the same in grade -- that 6 will go up and two will stay the same. You couple this with the way CGC is handing out 9.8s left and right lately, and you have to think that something has changed. This is in contrast to a year or two when the grades seemed exceptionally harsh.

 

 

[ChasingKingKirby]

Just to comment on the conclusions being drawn from this thread...

 

The "facts" - and remember this is all statistics of small numbers - ONLY suggest that CGC and PGX don't agree on grade. CGC doesn't agree on its own grades. I just got an email from a friend who re-subbed 8 books, all previously CGC graded. 6 of them went up in grade. As much as two points.

 

 

I was wondering this. It seems I had seen some instances where CGC slabbed books were resubbed and came back with different grades. I could see lower grades or a tad bit higher but when you are talking about a 2 point increase

 

I would have guessed subjectivity wouldn't have such a large range in grades.

 

I should clarify that by "two points" I mean two notches on the CGC scale - i.e. 9.0 to 9.4, 8.5 to 9.2, etc.

 

I'm not surprised, as many if not most books have a 2-3 grade range that reasonable people following the same standards could agree on, yet those same people will often pay widely differing prices for the same book depending on what the current encapsulated grade is.

 

Yup. Silly to pay the multiples.

 

I think the more significant observation is not that the grades vary, but the manner in which they do. It's pretty unlikely -- given 8 books, with the options to go up, down, or stay the same in grade -- that 6 will go up and two will stay the same. You couple this with the way CGC is handing out 9.8s left and right lately, and you have to think that something has changed. This is in contrast to a year or two when the grades seemed exceptionally harsh.

 

 

I dunno, I got some extremely harsh grades out of this last submission as well. For instance, tell me why this is a 6.0? I still don't get it. No visible flaws that I see...

 

[conditionfreak]

Great info on this thread, by the original poster. It illustates to me what some have already mentioned. Grading is subjective and can and WILL change on the same book, when graded by different professionals on different days.

 

I do want to say that money wise, overall, it seems that buying select PGX graded books paid off in the long run.

 

I also want to say that the premise the original poster has throughout this thread is that CGC got it right and PGX did not. Why do "we" assume that? Couldn't it be that PGX got it more right and CGC got it less right? CGC has in the past designated books as being trimmed that the submitters swear they purchased off the stand as OO, and no trimming was possible in their opinions.

 

Going with the premise that CGC is the final authority in most cases (there are of course exceptions and mistakes by any and all companies), and that CGC gets it right when they disagree with PGX, is a mistaken placement of confidence.

 

But, all of my PGX books will be eventually CGC slabbed. But not because of confidence in CGC or lack thereof in PGX. Strictly because of future sales by my heirs. Heritage does not accept PGX books (as I understand it, they are associated in business with CGC).

 

Oh. One final point. If you think that CGC personal do not submit their own books to CGC to be graded, you are sadly mistaken.

 

Unless you have some actual evidence to back up this claim, I'd suggest you be very careful about making a statement like this - you're trying to cast doubt on CGC's reputation as an impartial grading service, and if I were them, I wouldn't hesitate to throw a libel lawsuit your way.

 

Not that I believe you, but still ...

 

CGC is welcome to throw a lawsuit my way. I don't state things that I can not prove. Momma didn't raise no fools.

 

Seriously though, I do not believe it is against their companies policies and conditions they have previously stated concerning this situation. I do not believe that it is in fact a conflict of interest. It would be silly to have the only credible grading company and not allow the fan boys that work there, the ability to avail themselves of the services. After all, surely most if not all of the employees of CGC are or were collectors of comic books (except maybe a few shippers or what-have-you).

 

I do not begrudge CGC employees the ability to submit their own books for grading. As long as the grading is not done TO THEIR OWN BOOKS BY THEIR OWN SELVES. Other employees can grade their books. Is it a little spooky that the possibility exists of favoritism. Sure. But what business doesn't have favoritism towards fellow workers or family? It is part of life. If I am a cop and I pull over my best friends dad for speeding, he ain't gonna get a ticket. He will get a warning to slow down, but no ticket. Like it or not, that is the way of the world.

 

Again, as to the potential of a libel suit against me or anyone else for stating something similar to what I stated, it won't happen. I may get banned from this site, but their will not be a libel suit. If I get banned for this, I will be legend, right?

 

Naw. Y'all will just forget me after a short running thread whereupon most will say that I got what I had coming for being such a spoon. I've seen it before.

 

To CGC. I do not believe it is necessary and would not ask that true comic book collectors that are employees of your company, would have to shun and avoid the services of your company, in the pursuit of their hobby. What other options would they have? Quit collecting and having books graded? Go to your competitors? That wouldn't make any sense at all. No. Just don't let someone grade their own book/s. That is all I ask. Realistically, one could not ask for more of lovers of this hobby.