DC: Transitions to Bronze Age

[Paul_Maul]

I'm almost as interested in defining which runs of titles I want to collect as I am in actually collecting them. I would like to start my runs of each DC superhero title wherever I can best pin down the transition to the Bronze Age.

 

Some titles are obviously easy: Superman 233, Detective 395, Green Lantern 76, Batman 217 perhaps, all for fairly obvious reasons.

 

Action is a tougher call because Schwartz didn't take over as editor at the same time he took over Supes. Anyone know which issue of Action first references the re-vamped content (WGBS, Morgan Edge, etc.)? I'd say somewhere toward the end of the 25-cent giant run.

 

The other two titles I'm interested in deciding this for are JLA and Flash. For Justice League, my records indicate I decided on JLA 66. I can't remember whether it was because O'Neil took over as writer with that issue, or it might have been the return to the old-style logo.

 

With Flash I have never had any clue how to decide. Is there anything involving stories or creators that leads to a beginning of the Bronze Age for Flash?

[Zonker]

I made this list up some time ago. Obviously it is a judgement call, but this was mine...

 

Teen Titans 25 Jan/Feb 1970-- "Titans Kill a Saint?" 1st Lilith, Mr. Jupiter; Robin leaves, Titans abandon costumes (temporarily)

Detective 395 January 1970-- First O'Neil-Adams issue

Justice League 78 February 1970-- JLA leave earth; Black Canary joins

Batman 219 February 1970-- First Adams art this title

Flash 195 March 1970-- First Gil Kane art this title

Aquaman 50 Mar/Apr 1970-- Deadman by Adams begins crossover

GL/GA 76 April 1970-- First O'Neil-Adams, Green Arrow issue

Jimmy Olsen 133 October 1970-- First Kirby issue

Fantastic Four 103 October 1970--First non-Kirby issue

Superman 233 January 1971-- First Schwartz-edited issue. O'Neil/Swan/Anderson

Brave & Bold 98 Aug/Sep 1971-- first Jim Aparo art

Amazing Spider Man 100 September 1971--First non Stan Lee issue

Superboy 184 December 1971--First Cockrum Legion

Action 419 December 1971-- First Schwartz-edited issue.

[Zonker]

And Flash is particularly hard to pin down. The classic Silver Age Flash ended with Infantino's last issue #174. The Andru/Esposito team was one of those late-1960s transitional periods. Gil Kane didn't stay on the book long at all, but I think he was the first artist to update Barry Allen's 1950s image.

 

I can see it now: Overstreet notation--

 

Flash #194, final appearance of the Barry Allen crew cut.

 

 

[Paul_Maul]

I made this list up some time ago. Obviously it is a judgement call, but this was mine...

 

 

Batman 219 February 1970-- First Adams art this title

 

 

Don't you think Batman leaving Wayne Manor and moving into the Wayne Foundation building and Robin leaving for College in 217 was a more significant breakpoint?

[Zonker]

I made this list up some time ago. Obviously it is a judgement call, but this was mine...

 

 

Batman 219 February 1970-- First Adams art this title

 

 

Don't you think Batman leaving Wayne Manor and moving into the Wayne Foundation building and Robin leaving for College in 217 was a more significant breakpoint?

 

Yes, but I call that one the final Silver Age issue (with #218 being a reprint). I just have a mental block against assigning books cover-dated in the 1960s to the Bronze Age. (Same problem with Detective #394)

[Paul_Maul]

 

I can see it now: Overstreet notation--

 

Flash #194, final appearance of the Barry Allen crew cut.

 

 

 

That's actually a pretty good reason! The longer hair definitely indicates a decision to modernize the look. Thanks for pointing it out.

[joe_collector]

Don't you think Batman leaving Wayne Manor and moving into the Wayne Foundation building and Robin leaving for College in 217 was a more significant breakpoint?

 

Yes, but I call that one the final Silver Age issue (with #218 being a reprint). I just have a mental block against assigning books cover-dated in the 1960s to the Bronze Age. (Same problem with Detective #394)

 

Sure, but disregarding that specious argument (all issues were on the stands in 1969), both/either Detective 394 (Indian rights story/Robin arrested at College Riot) or Batman 217 (as noted above) are the obvious choices for the shift in Batman from SA to BA.

 

My personal pick is TEC 394, as Robin being arrested by the police was a serious departure into darker storylines, which I characterize as being pure BA.

[Paul_Maul]

Justice League 78 February 1970-- JLA leave earth; Black Canary joins

 

 

Could make a pretty good case for JLA #75 (first bearded GA in title).

[cortez]

Hi Paul_Maul

 

Good ComicsBook Resources credits Flash #220 with being the first Bronze Age

 

book, mostly due to the first appearance of the Turtle since Showcase #4.

 

I've included the link below

 

 

goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/.../scotts-classic-comics-corner-the-bronze-age-a-new-beginning-pt-4/ - Cached - Similar

 

 

Cordially,

 

Cortez

[Zonker]

Don't you think Batman leaving Wayne Manor and moving into the Wayne Foundation building and Robin leaving for College in 217 was a more significant breakpoint?

 

Yes, but I call that one the final Silver Age issue (with #218 being a reprint). I just have a mental block against assigning books cover-dated in the 1960s to the Bronze Age. (Same problem with Detective #394)

 

Sure, but disregarding that specious argument (all issues were on the stands in 1969), both/either Detective 394 (Indian rights story/Robin arrested at College Riot) or Batman 217 (as noted above) are the obvious choices for the shift in Batman from SA to BA.

 

My personal pick is TEC 394, as Robin being arrested by the police was a serious departure into darker storylines, which I characterize as being pure BA.

 

It can only be specious if I seriously meant it as an argument. It's not, instead, it's just my mental block!

[Zonker]

Justice League 78 February 1970-- JLA leave earth; Black Canary joins

 

 

Could make a pretty good case for JLA #75 (first bearded GA in title).

 

That is indeed a good candidate, as is JLA #71, with founding member J'onn J'onzz leaving Earth and the JLA to rejoin the exiled Martians. However, even apart from my prejudice against Bronze Age books being cover-dated in the 1960s, I also think #78 is significant as the start of what's now called the "satellite era," with the JLA headquarters now up in space instead of in that cave as in the Silver Age.

 

Another problem I have is the Joker appearance in JLA #77 has him as the somewhat silly, non-lethal character he was throughout the 1960s. If I'm not mistaken, the next Joker appearance after JLA #77 is Batman #251, so for my money JLA #77 is the final Silver Age Joker, whereas Batman #251 is his first Bronze Age appearance. And if #77 is SA, then...

[rjpb]

Fairly good arguments put forth so far, though it does become clear that while some tiles had a clear break from the SA , with many it was a transition over several issues.

 

With some claiming the BA starts as early as HOM #175, I was wondering what do boardies consider the last clearly Silver Age issue of any DC or Marvel title?

[joe_collector]

With some claiming the BA starts as early as HOM #175, I was wondering what do boardies consider the last clearly Silver Age issue of any DC or Marvel title?

 

For DC, it is definitely GL/GA 76 - that comic is pure flower-power, fight the man, activist/protest 60's format, and a fitting end to the Silver Age.

 

After that, the Bronze Age ushered in a wave of dark and nihilistic anti-hero characters and stories, wiping out the 60's for good. The drug stories in GL/GA are a great example of this shift.

[Zonker]

For DC, it is definitely GL/GA 76 - that comic is pure flower-power, fight the man, activist/protest 60's format, and a fitting end to the Silver Age.

 

After that, the Bronze Age ushered in a wave of dark and nihilistic anti-hero characters and stories, wiping out the 60's for good. The drug stories in GL/GA are a great example of this shift.

 

The problem with that line of thinking is that for DC at least, the comic book 60's weren't about fighting the man, instead the comic book 60's were about looking up to the man (or perhaps being the man. )

 

Maybe Marvel was darker in the 60's-- I know Spidey was a misunderstood outlaw, but I always got the impression Mr. Fantastic, Nick Fury & Capt. America of the '60s were squarely behind the good ol' corporate military industrial complex.

 

In a lot of ways it seems to me the Bronze Age was comics catching up to the larger (counter) cultural trends-- a natural consequence of the publishers deciding to pitch to an older audience, as it turned out a decidedly mixed blessing.

[joe_collector]

The problem with that line of thinking is that for DC at least, the comic book 60's weren't about fighting the man, instead the comic book 60's were about looking up to the man (or perhaps being the man. )

 

You really need to go out and read those Mod issues of Wonder Woman from 1968 - pure 60's mentality along the lines of GL/GA 76, only more feminist oriented. Even DC books like Lois Lane also took on issues of race, hippies, protests, etc. Same with mainstream Supes and Batman titles, although it was often pretty broad.

[Zonker]

 

With some claiming the BA starts as early as HOM #175, I was wondering what do boardies consider the last clearly Silver Age issue of any DC or Marvel title?

 

That's a really hard question to answer, since even as the Bronze Age was getting going, there were constant attempts to do throw-back series to try to simultaneously appeal to younger kids while the majority of the books went for an older audience. Series like Shazam! or later the New Adventures of Superboy. And some titles after turning dark, then switched back to a simpler, lighter style-- I'm thinking here of the post-Kirby Jimmy Olsen, or the period right after Wonder Woman returned to her costumed identity.

 

I guess you're asking for which series kept the Silver Age style going the longest before changing its tone. I don't know, maybe Spider-Man? (Stan Lee continually scripting up to #99). But Spidey was pretty dark for the Silver Age to begin with, so I don't know.

[joe_collector]

I guess you're asking for which series kept the Silver Age style going the longest before changing its tone.

 

On the Marvel side, it's definitely the Fantastic Four.

 

I've read virtually every Marvel BA comic printed, and mainstream titles like Amazing Spider-man incorporated vampires, werewolfs and started killing core characters, Daredevil was offing villains at a record pace, and even Captain America got much darker, with villains who actually killed and Cap turning away from the establishment (twice).

 

The FF books of the same era read like the Silver Age, with the usual villain fights, group dynamics and PC storylines. It wasn't until FF 141, where Reed turned Franklin into a vegetable and broke up the FF, leading to Sue running into the Sub-mariners arms and filing for divorce, then later the whole Femizon storyline on the sexes, to bring it firmly into the Bronze Age.

[Zonker]

The problem with that line of thinking is that for DC at least, the comic book 60's weren't about fighting the man, instead the comic book 60's were about looking up to the man (or perhaps being the man. )

 

You really need to go out and read those Mod issues of Wonder Woman from 1968 - pure 60's mentality along the lines of GL/GA 76, only more feminist oriented. Even DC books like Lois Lane also took on issues of race, hippies, protests, etc. Same with mainstream Supes and Batman titles, although it was often pretty broad.

 

It's been a while since I read the Sekowsky WW, but as I recall it seemed more to be about trying to outdo TV's similarly white pants-suited Diana Rigg than actually taking a feminist stand. The Mod Diana Prince seemed to be pretty dependent on the men around her to get out of jams, as I recall. I think Gloria Steinem even called DC out on the point-- why de-power their most recognizable female character?

 

There were certainly counter-cultural themes going on in some of the 1960s books, but they were kind of background scenery in my opinion. You always knew who the bad guys were, and they were generally pretty conventional bad guys. GL/GA turned things around, although I agree with others who point out how dated and preachy some of it seems today-- equally black & white, just pointing the finger in a different direction.

[joe_collector]

But by the same token, the infamous Drug Issues of GL/GA were fully in "support of The Man", going so far as to include text and forewords by government officials and organizations.

[HouseofComics.Com]

My vote is for Batman 217 over 219 btw. Carry on.