DC: Transitions to Bronze Age

[otherworldsj33]

I agree with most on that list. Maybe Batman 217, Adding OOAW #233. Lois Lane #93 (did LL ever really leave the SA?)

[40sJohn]

Great discussion on a good question...where does the BA start for each character or title..?

 

Zonker: Good list that you put together!

 

I like the argument for Batman being 217, which is a change for me as I had thought that it was some issues prior to that one. Definitely with Bats going back on his own and moving to the city was a move to another era.

 

 

[JohnT]

The problem with that line of thinking is that for DC at least, the comic book 60's weren't about fighting the man, instead the comic book 60's were about looking up to the man (or perhaps being the man. )

 

You really need to go out and read those Mod issues of Wonder Woman from 1968 - pure 60's mentality along the lines of GL/GA 76, only more feminist oriented. Even DC books like Lois Lane also took on issues of race, hippies, protests, etc. Same with mainstream Supes and Batman titles, although it was often pretty broad.

 

I'd put all those late 60's issue-related DC books firmly in the Bronze Age. In fact, they were what started the BA, imo.

[joe_collector]

I'd put all those late 60's issue-related DC books firmly in the Bronze Age. In fact, they were what started the BA, imo.

 

I look at the opposite, as I feel those were the bookend for the 60's and the "fight the man" societal changes that were going on then.

 

Or to look at it a different way, these 68-70 DC "issues-related" books died out pretty quick once the 70's rolled around, and this was far from a BA trend - in fact, I can't think of a single DC BA series that stuck to this format started by WW and coming to an end with that vestigial 60's limb, GL/GA 76.

 

The Bronze comics from 1971-79 were far different and followed a different path, highlighted by the darker vision of Batman, and the very important debut of the 70's Manhunter (a ground-breaking title) and Spectre re-imagining, along with the dark and nihilistic stuff Marvel was pumping out.

[Comicopolis]

I'd put all those late 60's issue-related DC books firmly in the Bronze Age. In fact, they were what started the BA, imo.

 

I look at the opposite, as I feel those were the bookend for the 60's and the "fight the man" societal changes that were going on then.

 

Or to look at it a different way, these 68-70 DC "issues-related" books died out pretty quick once the 70's rolled around, and this was far from a BA trend - in fact, I can't think of a single DC BA series that stuck to this format started by WW and coming to an end with that vestigial 60's limb, GL/GA 76.

 

The Bronze comics from 1971-79 were far different and followed a different path, highlighted by the darker vision of Batman, and the very important debut of the 70's Manhunter (a ground-breaking title) and Spectre re-imagining, along with the dark and nihilistic stuff Marvel was pumping out.

 

I concur with the great JC (thumbs u

[JohnT]

I'd put all those late 60's issue-related DC books firmly in the Bronze Age. In fact, they were what started the BA, imo.

 

I look at the opposite, as I feel those were the bookend for the 60's and the "fight the man" societal changes that were going on then.

 

Or to look at it a different way, these 68-70 DC "issues-related" books died out pretty quick once the 70's rolled around, and this was far from a BA trend - in fact, I can't think of a single DC BA series that stuck to this format started by WW and coming to an end with that vestigial 60's limb, GL/GA 76.

 

The Bronze comics from 1971-79 were far different and followed a different path, highlighted by the darker vision of Batman, and the very important debut of the 70's Manhunter (a ground-breaking title) and Spectre re-imagining, along with the dark and nihilistic stuff Marvel was pumping out.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with this. Granted DC shifted from issue-related "sixties" topics (actually this went through 1971 I think), but I think you could argue that at it's core the BA was typified by comics following (and in some cases expanding on) social trends instead of the good guy/bad guy themes in the SA, and that this trend started with the late 60's DC stuff and just followed into the 70's themes, one of which was the anti-hero theme. In other words the BA was the Age of Relevance, and what was relevant shifted from the late 60's to the early and mid 70's.

 

But let's say you're right, that the BA should be limited to the 71-79 period. What would you do with the late 60's stuff? Clearly DC had a radical shift during that period from SA goofy monsters to taking on--albeit clumsily--social issues of the day? Those books just seem so obviously anti-SA to me...

[otherworldsj33]

Anyone ever wonder how much of this would have taken place if Infantino did not take over? Nobody can really say, but I bet we would be looking at a very different DC BA time line.

[JohnT]

Anyone ever wonder how much of this would have taken place if Infantino did not take over? Nobody can really say, but I bet we would be looking at a very different DC BA time line.

 

I'd like to read up more on exactly what happened behind the scenes at DC in those days.

[joe_collector]

Granted DC shifted from issue-related "sixties" topics (actually this went through 1971 I think), but I think you could argue that at it's core the BA was typified by comics following (and in some cases expanding on) social trends instead of the good guy/bad guy themes in the SA, and that this trend started with the late 60's DC stuff and just followed into the 70's themes, one of which was the anti-hero theme.

 

Wow, that's a stretch that even Mr Fantastic wouldn't attempt.

 

Stuff like the Mod Wonder Woman and the "fight the man" issues-books like GL/GA 76 have absolutely no link to anti-heroes like Conan, Wolverine, Punisher, Manhunter, Spectre, Ghost Rider, etc. and in many ways, they are the exact opposite.

 

Vigilantism was one answer to the rising US crime rate, demanding that individuals take responsibility for their actions, while social conscience books like GL/GA instead blamed society/the government/big business for the poverty these people endured, effectively creating criminals. These are diametrically opposed viewpoints, and the main reason that when the "vigilante hero" took prominence, it effectively killed the old 60's dinosaurs like GL/GA.

 

I realize that many DC fans try to wedge the GL/GA book as the "start of the BA", but this is getting a little too much. These two were whining "Jane Fonda-type" pansies who railed incessantly against the injustices of society, and were totally removed from the death-dealing "Clint Eastwood" anti-heroes of the BA.

[JohnT]

Granted DC shifted from issue-related "sixties" topics (actually this went through 1971 I think), but I think you could argue that at it's core the BA was typified by comics following (and in some cases expanding on) social trends instead of the good guy/bad guy themes in the SA, and that this trend started with the late 60's DC stuff and just followed into the 70's themes, one of which was the anti-hero theme.

 

Wow, that's a stretch that even Mr Fantastic wouldn't attempt.

 

Stuff like the Mod Wonder Woman and the "fight the man" issues-books like GL/GA 76 have absolutely no link to anti-heroes like Conan, Wolverine, Punisher, Manhunter, Spectre, Ghost Rider, etc. and in many ways, they are the exact opposite.

 

Vigilantism was one answer to the rising US crime rate, demanding that individuals take responsibility for their actions, while social conscience books like GL/GA instead blamed society/the government/big business for the poverty these people endured, effectively creating criminals. These are diametrically opposed viewpoints, and the main reason that when the "vigilante hero" took prominence, it effectively killed the old 60's dinosaurs like GL/GA.

 

I realize that many DC fans try to wedge the GL/GA book as the "start of the BA", but this is getting a little too much. These two were whining "Jane Fonda-type" pansies who railed incessantly against the injustices of society, and were totally removed from the death-dealing "Clint Eastwood" anti-heroes of the BA.

 

Actually, I think the evolution from the idealism of the 60's DC social conscience themes to the disillusionment expressed in most books in the 70's is obvious, considering that same evolution was going on in society as a whole at the time. The 60's definitely questioned "society," "the establishment," or whatever term you want to use, but by the early 70's we were done with the idealism of ideas like giving peace a chance and dying before we got old, and we were instead left with a society that had been broken down and largely discredited, but that we sorely needed to put back together but didn't have a clue how to do so. I lived through the 70's and there was an overall feeling that things had fallen apart and they were never going to be fixed. In that malaise, to borrow Reagan's phrase, anti-heros were popular, and indeed attractive. At least they made sense. They inhabited a largely evil world, and they could muster the strength and willpower to fight against it.

 

That's a high falutin' way of saying I see a clear and natural link between the late 60's DC stuff and the rest of the BA. And again, the underlying characteristic of the BA was writers suddenly took an interest in what was going on in the world and telling stories about it...i.e. the BA was about RELEVANCE.

 

 

[joe_collector]

Actually, I think the evolution from the idealism of the 60's DC social conscience themes to the disillusionment expressed in most books in the 70's is obvious, considering that same evolution was going on in society as a whole at the time. The 60's definitely questioned "society," "the establishment," or whatever term you want to use, but by the early 70's we were done with the idealism of ideas like giving peace a chance and dying before we got old, and we were instead left with a society that had been broken down and largely discredited, but that we sorely needed to put back together but didn't have a clue how to do so.

 

This is exactly how I feel, which is why GA/GA 76, with it's 60's idealism and social conscience, is a great bookend for the SA, while stuff like Conan, Manhunter, darker Batman, Wolverine, Ghost Rider, etc. are BA books. That's what the "evolution" was, turning from old-school SA books like GL/GA (which was put down soon after) to darker, more anti-hero/vigilante heroes of the BA.

 

This 'linkage" stuff you bring up at the end is just window dressing, as there has always been a transition between eras, but as you summed up quite clearly, GL/GA was definitely a 60's remnant, and it WAS NOT a harbinger of what was to come in the 1970's. More like a vestigial 60's limb that needed to be cut off (canceled) for the true 70's BA titles to take form.

[Paul_Maul]

I've been thinking again about the issue of when titles transitioned to the Bronze Age. For Fantastic Four, while Kirby leaving is obviously important, I'm starting to think #105 is a good candidate for first Bronze Age issue.

 

The Subby battle extended through issue 104, even though Kirby left. Ish 105 featured the beginning of the negative zone story which was referenced in the first Kree-Skrull War issue of Avengers. It also featured Crystal's return to the Inhumans sanctuary, a long-running storyline of the early '70's. Thoughts?