Sign of the times ? . . . dumping of pricey art accelerating . . . ?

[JLA22fan-migration]

should we buy now before prices go lower

[Speedy-D]

Yeah? I've just stared buying a bit of OA. Are the prices really a lot higher than, say, a couple few years ago? Are you talking across the board, or just the high end stuff?

[Meeley Man]

Yeah? I've just stared buying a bit of OA. Are the prices really a lot higher than, say, a couple few years ago? Are you talking across the board, or just the high end stuff?

 

Yeah, they are pretty much across the board. With the economic downturn a lot of lower end stuff is selling much cheaper now, but the mid-level to high-end stuff has remained at pre-economic tanking levels or increased (in many cases).

[Mighty Hal]

Yeah? I've just stared buying a bit of OA. Are the prices really a lot higher than, say, a couple few years ago? Are you talking across the board, or just the high end stuff?

 

I think prices have grown quite a bit for the high-end stuff, Golden or Silver Age stuff. I'm not seeing it on the mid-tier and lower end of the Modern art era, which is where I live.

 

With a tiny bit of searching (CAF, eBay), I've found Quesada, Matsuda, Van Sciver, Jurgens OA covers from DC or Marvel and $450 was the highest Buy It Now price. Of course, these aren't dealer prices. Dealer prices seem to have SOARED in the last two years.

 

I once used this board to ask if it was possible to Beat the Dealer -- to get a steal from one of the big boys out there (romitaman, the artistschoice, graphiccollectibles, those kind of guys). The consensus seemed to be: Sure.

 

Now? Personally, I doubt it.

[easyt63]

I collect modern stuff as well, and I have to be honest, the few pieces I have sold have unfortunately been lower than what I paid. It sucks, but at least I have learned my lesson and wont buy another piece unless I am darn sure I will never sell it. That and I wont buy any pieces from dealers anymore, at least dealer stuff. I would rather buy straight from the artist or other collectors. Anyone else in the modern realm experiencing the same thing?

[Meeley Man]

I collect modern stuff as well, and I have to be honest, the few pieces I have sold have unfortunately been lower than what I paid. It sucks, but at least I have learned my lesson and wont buy another piece unless I am darn sure I will never sell it. That and I wont buy any pieces from dealers anymore, at least dealer stuff. I would rather buy straight from the artist or other collectors. Anyone else in the modern realm experiencing the same thing?

 

I do think it is unfair to paint all dealers with the same brush. There are some who are quite fair about the pricing and are even willing to haggle. But I do agree that more delaers than not are asking for "crazy money" on stuff that isn't anywhere near reality (or worth it). I find that if you are going to work with a dealer that is unfamiliar to you, always ask around about them to others. Try to get an idea of how they operate. If they are the kind who are unwilling to be flexible on prices, especially expensive stuff, you'll find out from others very quickly about that.

 

And I, also, think that buying something you like is always a key in all of this. Be mindful of value, but if you are buying this stuff with the intentions of investment behind it, that's a losing proposition. Just ask the folks who are still sitting on 20 copies each of the first issues of Spawn and Youngblood.

 

Basically, the collector base needs to learn to show some self-control and patience. They need to know that paying out "crazy money" for something they want, is only likely to cause the price of many other things to rise. Many collectors have been sowing these seeds for a long time and now we are reaping the whirlwind from such thoughtless impulsiveness.

[innocuous]

So, have the dealers of current artists adjusted their pricing? For example, I browse Albert Moy's site often and see the same pieces there for 1-2 years at the same or higher prices.

 

If prices have dropped, generally, 20-30% what would be a good offer. I feel that anything more than 10% on an offer would be looked at as lowballing. So the piece just sits there unsold.

[rob_allan]

I think there's a lot of new blood coming into the hobby (myself included) and that may be a reason for some of the weird disparity in prices recently. I have encountered a mentality with some sellers of "fleece the new guy" if they think you're new to the hobby. Some of the high prices from dealers might be because they are having some success doing this. Fortunately, a trend like that probably can't last. At some point people learn a lesson and they'll have to adjust to meet the market at large again. Some pricey art being dumped recently might have as much to do with this as the economy or the long-term direction of the hobby.

 

I just keep thinking that I was completely unaware you could even obtain original art (thought never occurred to me) until just a handful of years ago. And I have other friends that collect comics that come to the house, see some art, and also are learning this for the first time. This hobby has TONS of room to grow, I think. And, as others have said, if you buy what you like you really won't worry as much about movement in the market. With comics, I'm always worried about what the market means for the value of my current collection. With art, I'm worried about what the market means for making future purchases. Two different mentalities entirely. I'm thinking I'm not alone in this phenomenon either. (But maybe I am. I'm weird.)

 

-Rob-

[Speedy-D]

So how do you guys go about figuring out what's a fair price? I'm sure this is asked all the time. With comics, there are several guides, and they're a perfect way of determining, in general terms, what something's worth. With OA, I'm at a complete loss.

 

For instance: I've gotten a couple Carmine Infantino pages, 80's Flash stuff, for about $100 - $150 each. From the listings I've seen on ebay, this sounds about right. At a show earlier this year I saw a dealer with some Infantino Mystery In Space pages that were $1,300 - $1,500 each. I have no doubt that these pages should cost more, a lot more. They're definitely superior and more important (and they have Anderson inking!!). But I've never seen any anywhere else, so I have nothing to compare that price to. I see similar era covers for 10 times that on ebay, but that's no help. Is there any sort of GPAnalysis for OA? Sellers must have a system for working out prices which I could use to work out value, no?

 

With something this new to me, it's just not possible for me to work out "what it's worth to me," y'know? I have to have some frame of reference.

 

O, one more thing: how much does condition factor into determining value? Does it make as much difference as it does with comics?

[comicartfan]

While condition is key with comics, it's less so with OA. First of all, you aren't dealing with multiples of the same page/cover in art that you are with comics....with comics, condition is what separates the "good" from the "bad"...so to speak.

 

But, don't think condition doesn't matter at all....It does. Especially with more important pages. If there is water damage, staining or yellowing, tears, excessive "White-Out" or stats, then that will absolutely affect the value.

 

Now, to answer the $64,000 dollar question : How do I know if I paid too much/ too little/ just right ? -

I've learned over time to keep it to this simple formula :

 

If I want to buy a piece, I look at it and say " Can I live with that price ?"....If I can, I buy it and don't look back....If I can't, then I don't. - I don't worry about if I paid too much, what can I sell it for, did I get a deal......and all that other stuff.....

 

Of course, Hari, Chris, Gene or a number of other more experienced buyers may have different opinions, so I'd love to hear their input...

[Speedy-D]

Now, to answer the $64,000 dollar question : How do I know if I paid too much/ too little/ just right ? -

I've learned over time to keep it to this simple formula :

 

If I want to buy a piece, I look at it and say " Can I live with that price ?"....If I can, I buy it and don't look back....If I can't, then I don't. - I don't worry about if I paid too much, what can I sell it for, did I get a deal......and all that other stuff.....

 

Yeah, but you must have a ballpark idea of relative worth. I was jonesin' for an Infantino sketch at the NYC convention in February, but I wouldn't have paid $10,000, no matter how much I wanted it. He was selling them for $70 and that sounded fine, in line with other artists' prices more or less.

 

The sketch is so cool by the way. he drew it in like 90 seconds and it makes me smile every time I look at it.

[batman_fan]

Now, to answer the $64,000 dollar question : How do I know if I paid too much/ too little/ just right ? -

I've learned over time to keep it to this simple formula :

 

If I want to buy a piece, I look at it and say " Can I live with that price ?"....If I can, I buy it and don't look back....If I can't, then I don't. - I don't worry about if I paid too much, what can I sell it for, did I get a deal......and all that other stuff.....

 

 

These are words to live by. I take the exact same approach. As long as I love the page and plan to hold it for a long time, I don't worry too much on the price. I have taken this approach and actually done very well when selling many years later (bought a Buscema 1/2 splash off ebay several year back for ~$250, sold it a short time back for $850)

[Mighty Hal]

I do think it is unfair to paint all dealers with the same brush.

 

You're right. I've worked with some great dealers and many have cut deals for me. In a couple of occasions, they've offered timed payments, too.

 

For the most part, I like the guys that deal artwork in this hobby. It's just that much of the "prime" material seem to have found a home on the dealer sites -- and then doubled or tripled in price.

 

 

[easyt63]

But remember, im talking about the dealers who sell mostly modern art. While my experience is limited, I can tell you that the pages I have sold to finance another piece have not come close to what I paid from the dealer most of the time. SO, you can see how I can be a bit biased.

 

[JLA22fan-migration]

Message board rumours are that a huge amount of high priced EC and Brit art has hit the market this weekend from a disillusioned investor. Will be interesting to see non-dealer pricing

[heartened]

Yeah? I've just stared buying a bit of OA. Are the prices really a lot higher than, say, a couple few years ago? Are you talking across the board, or just the high end stuff?

 

I think many of us collectors who've been in it a while have always thought that the modern art pricing was higher than actual worth. In many cases, representatives of the artist place prices arbitrarily on pieces to match "vintage" art by more established artists. For some reason, people were paying, perhaps mainly because of the hype of a recent comic or phenomenon. Problem with this is that the hype and phenomenon is not, by definition, time tested. If the nostalgia for the art does not materialize over time, then prices have only one direction to go: down.

 

In addition, I've always felt that ever since artists started drawing comics to maximize their secondary market sales on the art, that it started to signal the downfall of the "truly valuable" comic art (at least for me). This is because once you place the art higher than the story and context, you lose a large part of what makes comic art unique: the graphic storytellling panel approach. Without that, and you have art that is oftentimes very hard to appreciate on its own merit, untied to a writer or character.

 

So, it is not surprising to me that modern art pricing is more volatile and fluctuating than more vintage art. Of course, you have to buy what you like at a price you can afford. Best to buy what you plan on keeping. All new collectors buy things, and then their tastes change. In some cases, our tastes are the same but we set our heights higher as we get more "into" the hobby. Either way, there'll be times when you have to sell in those first few years at least, so you do have to make sure you haven't gone out on a limb on a piece and price, or that you can afford the inherent learning curve of this hobby. For me, my taste and preferences have been fine-tuned for the last 5-6 years, such that everything I buy now is a keeper. But I did sell quite a few things in the early years, many times on eBAY.

 

In contrast, I have not seen prime art by the more well-known and established artists diminishing; quite the contrary in fact.

 

Hari

[BucOne-migration]

I collect modern stuff as well, and I have to be honest, the few pieces I have sold have unfortunately been lower than what I paid. It sucks, but at least I have learned my lesson and wont buy another piece unless I am darn sure I will never sell it. That and I wont buy any pieces from dealers anymore, at least dealer stuff. I would rather buy straight from the artist or other collectors. Anyone else in the modern realm experiencing the same thing?

 

I do think it is unfair to paint all dealers with the same brush. There are some who are quite fair about the pricing and are even willing to haggle. But I do agree that more delaers than not are asking for "crazy money" on stuff that isn't anywhere near reality (or worth it). I find that if you are going to work with a dealer that is unfamiliar to you, always ask around about them to others. Try to get an idea of how they operate. If they are the kind who are unwilling to be flexible on prices, especially expensive stuff, you'll find out from others very quickly about that.

 

And I, also, think that buying something you like is always a key in all of this. Be mindful of value, but if you are buying this stuff with the intentions of investment behind it, that's a losing proposition. Just ask the folks who are still sitting on 20 copies each of the first issues of Spawn and Youngblood.

 

Basically, the collector base needs to learn to show some self-control and patience. They need to know that paying out "crazy money" for something they want, is only likely to cause the price of many other things to rise. Many collectors have been sowing these seeds for a long time and now we are reaping the whirlwind from such thoughtless impulsiveness.

 

most ppl are buying art because they like it and to at least be able to recoupe their investment. I would agree some dealers are okay but like most things in this hobby buying from your fellow collector might be the better choice.

[Meeley Man]

I collect modern stuff as well, and I have to be honest, the few pieces I have sold have unfortunately been lower than what I paid. It sucks, but at least I have learned my lesson and wont buy another piece unless I am darn sure I will never sell it. That and I wont buy any pieces from dealers anymore, at least dealer stuff. I would rather buy straight from the artist or other collectors. Anyone else in the modern realm experiencing the same thing?

 

I do think it is unfair to paint all dealers with the same brush. There are some who are quite fair about the pricing and are even willing to haggle. But I do agree that more delaers than not are asking for "crazy money" on stuff that isn't anywhere near reality (or worth it). I find that if you are going to work with a dealer that is unfamiliar to you, always ask around about them to others. Try to get an idea of how they operate. If they are the kind who are unwilling to be flexible on prices, especially expensive stuff, you'll find out from others very quickly about that.

 

And I, also, think that buying something you like is always a key in all of this. Be mindful of value, but if you are buying this stuff with the intentions of investment behind it, that's a losing proposition. Just ask the folks who are still sitting on 20 copies each of the first issues of Spawn and Youngblood.

 

Basically, the collector base needs to learn to show some self-control and patience. They need to know that paying out "crazy money" for something they want, is only likely to cause the price of many other things to rise. Many collectors have been sowing these seeds for a long time and now we are reaping the whirlwind from such thoughtless impulsiveness.

 

most ppl are buying art because they like it and to at least be able to recoupe their investment. I would agree some dealers are okay but like most things in this hobby buying from your fellow collector might be the better choice.

 

Actually, much like a dealer, that depends on who you deal with. As I'm learning right now, there seem to be plenty of collectors who aren't any better than the dealers who expect "crazy money" on a piece that is hardly worth it.

[CollectingFool]

I look at buying art from modern artists like buying a new car. It's shiny, new, you get that high from getting your hands on a new toy and it looks pretty. Depreciation is expected in all but the rarest cases. Spending a lot of money on new art from modern artists is like buying a luxury car. Same thing applies but depending on the artist the depreciation might be slower or even more extreme. Very few people are fortunate enough to buy art early on from artists like James Jean before dealers start maxing out his prices.

 

Now, buying classic art is like buying a classic car. Values are established. There is a verifiable market established and over time, the better pieces hold their value or appreciate. Problem is, much like classic cars, you better make sure how much is original and how much work has been done and it better have been done professionally. Also, it's more of a luxury so during tough economic times the middle to low end stuff may become volitile but the higher end stuff might become a refuge for those with money pulling out of traditional investments. New car/art sales always go down when the economy takes a hit.

 

Not the greatest analogy I know but it fits well with my point.

 

Ruben

http://www.collectingfool.com

[comicartfan]

I think many of us collectors who've been in it a while have always thought that the modern art pricing was higher than actual worth

 

Hari, Ruben and other interested parties,

 

I have thought this way too for some time. I realized that the "fleecing" of the OA collector, especially in the context someone who's new to the hobby. You've got those collectors who are still in that learning game, combined with money from selling their comics, buying stuff in order to "get into the hobby"....I did that, not alot, but I am guilty.

 

Now, let's look at this angle of it. No one can dispute the fact that new art is expensive. Prices from stuff that was produced just a few months ago by artists, that while established, are sky high....Add in the fact that they are "big names" - Jim Lee, Alex Ross, Ethan Van Sciver, George Perez, etc.....it's mind blowing that a cover priced at 20K for a book that came out 2 months ago, sells !!!

 

This leads me to wonder, is it overpriced if there is indeed a buyer for it ? I wonder, is it overpriced if someone is willing to pay ?

 

Secondly, while that's true that certain artists working today don't have the luxury of being time tested, like say, a Starlin, Byrne, Miller or Kirby......But, those markets weren't reaching the prices they are now until very recently. That's not to say that $500 for a Miller Wolverine mini series cover wasn't expensive back then. I think if you talk to someone of the guys that have been around, Will Gab-riel, Bechara, Steve Fischler, Dave Mandel, etc...They paid what was consider alot for stuff at that time

Looking at the old ads through Comic Buyer's Guide is likely to make most of us ill....1K for an Adams Batman cover.....Still, it was probably alot to pay for something that very few people cared for.....

 

Fast forward ten years and prices have been rocketing. And they continue to do so for the prime stuff. Several reasons for that, all of which we are all too familiar. One big reason is the nostalgia. Collectors that grew up reading Miller's DD, or Byrne's X Men, Bolland's Killer Joke or McFarlane's Spider-man are now in the position to spend a little "extra" on the non essentials in life and they want those childhood stories.

 

BUT, collectors that are growing up now have no connection to that stuff. They are reading Van Sciver's Flash, Bagley's Ultimate Spider-man or Walking Dead or McGuniness's Hulk.....And when they are in their 30s-40s (as I think most original art collectors fall), that is the stuff they will be nostalgic for....Not Kirby FF or Ditko Spider-man......What will happen to the value of those pieces, as the main group of those collectors retire, leave the hobby or whatever.....

 

This incredibly addictive hobby is still a very esoteric one and unless there is a flood of older people getting into the hobby and staying, the "classic" stuff may not hold the same allure.

 

I could be wrong, but it's my