What You Really Dislike About Resto

[ft88]

I guess what I am getting at is answering the question as to why restoration loses such value vs non restoration. I am generalizing here with my answers so each individual may view things differently but I am looking at the market prices as signals telling me what comic buyers value. Here is the chain of questions.

 

5 Why are restored books so much less than restored --> leads to

4 Why are 9.8's so much more valuable than 9.2 --> leads to

3 Why are NM's more valuable than VGs or Gs --> leads to

2 Why are Gs and VGs worth more than reprints --> leads to

1 What makes comics so damn special in the first place?

 

Answer

 

1 Appreciation for what it means to each of us to read comics. I have described it (poorly) as magic / fantasy moments attributed to youth. Again this is a general market view, not true for each individual

 

2 I like the original feel to get me closer to that appreciation of original comics vs reprints

 

3 NMs get me even closer to that feeling

 

4. MT 9.8 represent the ulitmate in getting close to original feeling

 

5. restoration destroys the appreciation. I may still appreciate the book but it is less so.

 

In all cases the prices paid in the market support this. That an individual may feel different is A-OK. The market basically says that restorations get no better than G-VG unless it is a 9 or better with only minor ct.

 

I don't really believe that you appreciate a VG 50's horror book just as much as a NM-. If that were true you could easily trade the 1 NM- for 10 VG's. Somewhere somehow you value that NM- 10X as much as the VG's. It may not make sense but by keeping the 1 NM- instead of the VG's aren't you placing a higher value on it? This isn't an argument of NM is worth more than VG but the level of value you personally place on it.

 

For the poster who would rather have a VF restored vs a VG unrestored you will be able to find plenty of people who will do that trade. I recently sold a Superman 14 in VF- with color touch on the black cover for $500 on ebay. I would rather have had a VG unrestored which is worth at least $650 if you can find one. While not a big difference one is worth more than the other. This gets even crazier on High Value books and more modern and plentiful books.

 

I hope this made more sense.

 

 

 

 

[PovertyRow]

I don't really believe that you appreciate a VG 50's horror book just as much as a NM-. If that were true you could easily trade the 1 NM- for 10 VG's. Believe it, bubba!

 

 

Somewhere somehow you value that NM- 10X as much as the VG's. It may not make sense but by keeping the 1 NM- instead of the VG's aren't you placing a higher value on it?

 

You would place a higher value on it but I wouldn't. Keep in mind. I am collecting a pre-code horror tyope set: a single copy of each pre-code horror TITLE. That means one copy of Voodoo, one copy of Mister Mystery, one copy of Tales From The Crypt, etc. I select the books in my collection as being books whose covers and stories I like more than others of the same title. Each book has a role to play in my collection and each has its own uniqueness. I value them in their own right, and value them for cover/art and story a long way before I value them for condition.

 

As an example, I have a Menace 11 (tough book - the legendary "broken neck" cover) in G+-. I also have a Menace 9 in F+ with a great Gene Colan black cover. I cannot bear to part with either of them, even though I only have one "slot" for enace because both of them are real favorites. Each gives me the same enjoyment. But should I NEED to sell for some reason, the higher grade 9 goes 1st because the 11 is one of my all time favorite covers and was a long time holy grail.

 

Oh - most talk about monetary value is going to be pretty lost on me. I am not stupid, though. I know the lay of the land, how much pre-cdoes should be going for, what a good deal is and have an approximate idea of future "growth". But the only way $$$ Value factors into my collecting is that scenario where a NM- COULD buy several lesser grades. If that NM- was an isue I was not interested in, I would trade or sell it in a flash for a few lower grades of issues I WAS interested in. But if I love the book then I will keep it. And I love that Voodoo book. It is not ITS fault it is a high grade and I won't shun it for that, but will love it in spite of that flaw!

[PovertyRow]

OK - one last item - I DO love higher grade pre-code horror books. But the higher grade doesn;t bring back more nostalgia or magic. One of my all time favorite books, and one which I wish I still had, was a GA Captain Marvel with a lot of writing by the kids who owned it on the cover. How did I know it was owned by kids? Because one of the lines was "Hide the book. Ma's coming!" Now that book was a G+/VG- at best but you know? It had tremendous personality and REAL nostalgia!

[Mr. Zipper]

First off, ff, I understand your own view on this and can appreciate such a stance. The piece I italicized above kind of gets to the core of what made me start this thread in the first place. Restored comics DO have a sleazy image, but it is that image I basically wanted to address. While a lot of comics were sleazed by unscrupulous dealers, a lot were restored by professionals with full disclosure and no intent to scam. Unfortunately, the sleaze aspects tends to override the pro aspect and all restored books are seen as being hacked by a sleazeball.

 

 

While this is certainly true, most of the restoration I've run across is not sleazy dealers as much as probably kids who wanted to make their comics look better with marker touches, glue tear seals, etc. Stuff that was probably done long before it was a cardinal sin. 10 - 15 years ago I bought a few books that had small marker touches, a glued internal tear.... At the time, it was no big deal. The book was VG/FINE and a tiny marker touch was acceptable in that grade. End of story.

 

Along comes CGC 10 years later and this all changes. The previous VG/FINE with a marker touch that was worth about $100 is now worth $20 and somehow tainted. I can understand that a restored copy may be less than an indentical copy unrestored, but this level of devaluing is absurb.

 

The quest for "perfection" and the outrageous multiples paid for HG makes it a bit too tempting (and profitable) for unscrupulous elements to pass up the opportunity to "fix" a minor flaw. If people weren't paying 10x for a 9.6 vs a 8.5, there wouldn't be so much incentive to trim that overhang or touch up that spine stress. (The same applies to the autograph market.... forgery wasn't a huge problem until the late 90s autograph craze + ebay demonstrated that people will pay crazy amounts of money for signed items. Presto! A crime niche flourishes.)

 

So, all restoration isn't bad IMO, but the overall stigma associated with restoration comes from the greedy and sleazy sellers that perform undisclosed restoration to increase value. Unfortunately, this has left a bad mark on all restoration, no matter how minor or well-intentioned. So, now even people that were open about resto before are incented to hide and/or dump restored books because the value dropped .... the cycle continues....

 

Personally, I would like to see the market come to its senses about resto and adopt a fair view. It doesn't help that CGC gives PLOD to books whether it has a pinhead size marker dot or has been totally reconstructed. Their handling of restoration is Draconian IMO, and more thought should have been put into how to handle slight restoration... especially when the resto doesn't likely change the apparent grade.

 

[PovertyRow]

Right on!

[ft88]

I find the rants against restoration somewhat disingenous. That prices on restoration are low should be celebrated rather than ranted against. Just think, you can buy a restored Superman 1 for less than $10k while an unrestored costs 50k.

 

As long as you are not overly bothered by restoration then it is a buyers paradise.

 

My guess is that those that find restored books too cheap are the ones who own restored books and simply wish the value were higher.

 

Here is another thought. Each of us place value on different comics for different reasons. No matter the reason, whomever values the book the most determines its price. This rule trumps all other rules as far as what we all think something is worth. Now, as far as generalizing the market as a whole and referencing this thread I think the the highest value comes from the collectors who attribute a nostalgic appreciation which I have ranted about in previous posts.

 

The dealers are middlemen helping collectors satisfy their demand. BSDs are people who feel the need to impress others who have similar feelings towards books. Speculators provide liquidity and volatility to supply and prices. In the end the market and the prices are all based on why we value and appreciate the comics we buy over and above a $1 reprint.

 

A few side notes:

 

Why is original comic art so valuable? Steve Ditko pencils are as valuable as Andy Warhals sketches yet Ditko is not considered a fine artist or historically significant, nor will he be.

 

CGC comics almost seem sterile.

 

What is the deal with price variants? Bronze age books this is all the rage but heaven forbid you try and sell a Pence or "10d" copy of Spiderman #50 for more than guide even though pence copies are rather rare.

 

 

[PovertyRow]

Each of us place value on different comics for different reasons. No matter the reason, whomever values the book the most determines its price. This rule trumps all other rules as far as what we all think something is worth. Now, as far as generalizing the market as a whole and referencing this thread I think the the highest value comes from the collectors who attribute a nostalgic appreciation which I have ranted about in previous posts.

 

There is much truth in that. And after the one with the highest value buys their copy and is out of the market, then the next highest pocketbook comes into play, etc. At least as an idealized structure. Books like I collect are generally less expensive, and thus less prone to the ideal. I mean, I can't see a scramble war for an Adventures Into the Unknown 22. but even that simple book had to have its price established based on what people are willing to pay.

 

Why is original comic art so valuable? Steve Ditko pencils are as valuable as Andy Warhals sketches yet Ditko is not considered a fine artist or historically significant, nor will he be.

 

My perception is that original art is just that: original art, and each piece is unique and drawn by, to use your example, Ditko. now Ditko may not be considered a "fine artist" but the world of art encompasses a lot more than "fine art". As an example, "folk art" could almost be considered the antithesis of fine art yet folk art pieces can command very high prices. And in the comic book world, Ditko, Kirby, Adams, etc. ARE the "fine artists", so to speak.

 

What is the deal with price variants? Bronze age books this is all the rage but heaven forbid you try and sell a Pence or "10d" copy of Spiderman #50 for more than guide even though pence copies are rather rare.

 

I think you answered it yourself in your nostalgia perception. In America, collectors have no nostalgia for the pence. They DO have nostalgia for the 10, 12, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 cent etc. prices. The price variants tend to shake that nostalgia up, so to speak, mixing the memories of the 35 cent days with the 30 cent days, etc. But no one remembers pence prices so no nostalgia.

[Aman619]

very thoughtful POV, as per usual.

 

for me, first off, you have to split off CONSERVATION efforts from RESTORATION work. I am against all methods of restoring lost appearance in an effort to make a damaged book LOOK UN-damaged again. I like the concept that books that serendipitously evade damage to their appearance over decades SHOULD be the most sought after and valuable comics. But once the damage accrues on a book, it is NO LONGER "eligible." No amount of work either amateur or professional to "restore" lost appearance is to be taken into consideration when discussing the "value" of the comic book.

 

Conservation techniques, on the other hand, or, structural work to prolong the life of a comic is different. Unfortunately, these kinds of efforts most often improve the appearance of the book. Gluing pieces back in place; sealing tears; color touch; cleaning and pressing ALL remove defects due to damage. I can understand sealing a tear so it wont tear any further: perhaps it needs to be done in a less invisible fashion so as to NOT avoid detection? Same with a small bit of gluing of a wayward piece...

 

If the work ONLY sought to preserve and not improve, and if all efforts were readily noticeable, we would not have th ethical issues we face when buying comics that may or may not have had undisclosed work.

[PovertyRow]

If the work ONLY sought to preserve and not improve, and if all efforts were readily noticeable, we would not have th ethical issues we face when buying comics that may or may not have had undisclosed work.

 

You said a mouthful there!

[acesilver]

I dislike the feeling of disappointment when you come to find out your book(s) is restored. The ideal book is one devoid of any marks and pristine in its raw beauty IMO. Like having your own "Mile High" type of book. Restoration of any sort for a book that is already high grade without any obvious issues makes me wonder what the @#$@# the person was thinking! If they wanted to "practice," do it on a low grade copy.

 

Restoration definitely has a place for books that are deteriorating. Preserving wonderful links to our past is very important. So Platinum, Gold and maybe an important Silver can merit the improvement that restoration brings. I give those who do restoration well a lot of credit. They are true artists. To have the knowledge that it takes and then apply it to make the books so much better then it was before is truly no small feat.

 

The other thing I don't like is never having a clue on how much a restored book may actually be worth. I've heard so many opinions on what a restored book goes for, and they are all over the map, that you just would never truly know the value. By sticking to unrestored books I have far less uncertainty about what they are worth.

[PovertyRow]

Restoration of any sort for a book that is already high grade without any obvious issues makes me wonder what the @#$@# the person was thinking!

 

Boy howdy I hear that!

[a_mysterious_penguin-migra]

I don't generally collect expensive, restoration-worthy books, so take this with a grain or two of salt, but it seems to me that there's a big difference between "additive" restoration and "subtractive" restoration. Color retouching, staple replacement, missing piece replacement, etc. all add something new to the comic that wasn't there when it was first printed. Cleaning and tape removal, on the other hand, simply remove external things that have accumulated on the comic since it was printed. In other words, they act on the external accumulations, rather than on the comic itself, and thus simply reveal the still entirely original comic underneath. (Ya, I know, microscopic chemical changes to the paper from the cleaner and all that, but that's going a bit far in the purity department, in my opinion.)

 

So, cleaning and tape removal (as well as pressing, actually) are really the only things that qualify as true "restoration", in my eyes, since they restore the comic to its original condition. Color touch-ups and so on are more like "enhancement" than restoration. With that in mind, I don't think the former should significantly affect the nostalgic and/or financial value of a comic, whereas the latter probably should. (To each their own, of course. Just my two cents on the matter.)

 

[Rickdogg]

Non disclosed restoration has to be at the top of any collector's list. Just downright dirty and wrong! One of my other main gripes is when there is slight color touch detected on an otherwise NM- or better book!!!!!!!!

[garthgantu]

I don't generally collect expensive, restoration-worthy books, so take this with a grain or two of salt, but it seems to me that there's a big difference between "additive" restoration and "subtractive" restoration. Color retouching, staple replacement, missing piece replacement, etc. all add something new to the comic that wasn't there when it was first printed. Cleaning and tape removal, on the other hand, simply remove external things that have accumulated on the comic since it was printed. In other words, they act on the external accumulations, rather than on the comic itself, and thus simply reveal the still entirely original comic underneath. (Ya, I know, microscopic chemical changes to the paper from the cleaner and all that, but that's going a bit far in the purity department, in my opinion.)

 

So, cleaning and tape removal (as well as pressing, actually) are really the only things that qualify as true "restoration", in my eyes, since they restore the comic to its original condition. Color touch-ups and so on are more like "enhancement" than restoration. With that in mind, I don't think the former should significantly affect the nostalgic and/or financial value of a comic, whereas the latter probably should. (To each their own, of course. Just my two cents on the matter.)

 

Welcome to the boards, incognito flightless bird

There's quite a bit more to the restoration issue than you cite, tho... as just one example, there are multiple methods of cleaning comic books, from the innocuous (Wonderbreading) to the invasive (chemical dip). Some methods of cleaning leave residue, some remove gloss, some seem to have no material impact on the book.