IS IT TIME FOR AN ORIGINAL ART PRICE GUIDE

[artcollector9]

All interesting and well thought out comments!

 

Look, forget about a price guide for original art, comic or otherwise...art is so unique, it's value cannot be objectively quantified.

 

Sotheby's used to publish 'The Year in Review' with pictured examples, and educated commentary on trends that were seen that year...that could work for us.

 

Clearly, we can't say 'A Kirby FF panel page is worth X'...it really comes down to viewing each piece.

 

However, it would be nice to see several examples and say 'Kirby panel pages were moving briskly from 6K to 15K depending upon content, here are some documented specific examples...'

 

DOCUMENTED is difficult to prove, I realize that. Even cancelled checks would be suspect. (was the check for one piece or two?)

 

 

[CollectingFool]

You hit the nail on the head. That IS the way it is and the old timers who could provide insight to such a project LIKE it that way.

 

You could view it that way. Or you can say "I've spent a good part of the last 10 years spending at least 20 hours a week in this hobby talking to people, creating spreadsheets, digging up contacts and sources and making networking connections. Why the hell should I hand over all my hard work to some newbie walking into the hobby with fresh just-sold-my-overpriced-CGC-books cash that's just going to be my competition?" Why is there an attitude that it's unfair to expect someone to have to put in the time to learn something? That someone has to work a little to get what they want? I've already been burned more than once and I'm still happy to talk to people and give my opinions on values or certain market dynamics. I just can't understand this sense of entitlement or saying "Old Timers" are holding out because they won't give you something of value for free.

 

 

[Bronty]

I don't think adam is suggesting that "oldtimers" hand over the info for free. If I or I suspect he were in those shoes, I (we?) wouldn't hand it over for free either. He's just pointing it out.

[CollectingFool]

I don't think adam is suggesting that "oldtimers" hand over the info for free. If I or I suspect he were in those shoes, I (we?) wouldn't hand it over for free either. He's just pointing it out.

 

You're missing the larger point. If you want info you have to go out there and get it. Don't wait for or ask for someone to compile it for you. It will never be the same as getting the info yourself unfiltered and getting the education in the hobby you need to make the right decisions. There are no short-cuts. Unless of course you just have money to burn or aren't really into this stuff and just want to dabble.

 

[Nexus]

Cannot agree with Ruben enough here. There is nothing that will replace networking and doing your own legwork. It takes time and effort (a lot of it) if you really want to educate yourself. Sorry.

 

Plug yourself in to the hobby enough and you'll know a good deal from a screw job without any price guide. This is especially true of high-end art. You'll know not just from asking prices, but from who you're dealing with.

 

The latter is just as important as the former. Unfortunately (and this is being discussed right now on Comicart-L), it is becoming more difficult as certain collectors/speculators/hucksters are laundering their art through dealers on consignment. Those who know about it are savvy to self-serving hype by stealth consignors to pump up the values. Sadly, many don't...and end up falling victim.

 

No price guide will ever help you there. Only an investment in time and relationships.

 

[comicartcom]

most everyone in this post has lots of good points, but I think Mitch has it correct when he says it's better to focus on an actual sales report sheet than a price guide, however the problem with this approach is just as Mitch states "DOCUMENTED is difficult to prove, I realize that. Even cancelled checks would be suspect."

 

that's because in this hobby particularly, many deals are fully trade and how do you evaluate that??

 

One good point in comic books is the MH Marvel Comics #1

 

this book traded and re-traded multiple time in a couple years about 20 years ago.

By the time the last trade was done, the "value" had increased 5-fold and it is believed that no cash had ever traded hands. Also, the book traded back and forth between the same people a few times

 

One big problem is called "conflict of interest" and it takes a strong will to avoid such a situation. How do dealers successfully price material for public information, while at the same time not damaging their ability to sell something they have, or to not inflate something that have lots of?? This is the #1 problem with the Comic Book Price Guide and always has been. Many dealers insist that each year the large variety of comic books must increase in value to offset inflation. That's a crock.. Why should a book be worth more in April after the price guide is released than it was in March? Sometimes even considerably higer in price and during Feb and March the same dealers making the reports for Overstreet are actively buying copies of books that are going up because they have information that the average collector does not. This is aside from the fact that by the time theguide comes out - the prices are potentially obsolete. Also many dealers underprice their reports so they can continue to buy well-selling books below marke and this is in a market where sometimes there can be very many copies extant.

 

Art is unique and always will be. The best anyone can do is themselves keep track of market trends, do lots of networking and examine every list possible during the year. But even that is not always usefull due to market conditions, fluctuations in price on the same pieces in subsequent sales that are higher or lower depending on when, where and to whom a piece of art was sold.

 

If one John Byrne cover sells for $50k cash, but another less interesting cover trades at $75k, how do you evaluate that??

 

Or if Eric Roberts is the only guy who'll pay $175k for 2 comic covers and he isn't interested in any other covers by those artists, how do you evaluate that deal and the other covers??

 

In actuality, the Heritage database and the CAF database are almost where most people want to go with information. If the rest of the dealers could report their monthly sales and make distinctions between sales and trades (and do so honestly), that would be a benefit as well. But there is something about a dealer doing that which goes against his own interests. Why should he give information for free to a database that it costs him running of business to compile on his own and make free to users??

 

Ultimately, there is absolutely no perfect solution and it is now and should be up to the individual to "get educated" without my having to give you proprietary information that I prefer not too. It does not necessarily work to a dealer's benefit to share this data and the individual fans would have little to offer the dealer in return for this information, so why would he do the work needed to help??

 

If there was a rewards system in place, that might offset the value of the info for the dealer. But probably not enough to make it matter. Dealers are in the position of making profit for information they gather over the decades by buying and selling.

 

Collectors are at odds with this concept and would rather see cheap prices and shared data because it benefits them.

 

These concepts are at odds with each other and prevent full sharing of information.

 

Rich

[buyatari]

You hit the nail on the head. That IS the way it is and the old timers who could provide insight to such a project LIKE it that way.

 

You could view it that way. Or you can say "I've spent a good part of the last 10 years spending at least 20 hours a week in this hobby talking to people, creating spreadsheets, digging up contacts and sources and making networking connections. Why the hell should I hand over all my hard work to some newbie walking into the hobby with fresh just-sold-my-overpriced-CGC-books cash that's just going to be my competition?" Why is there an attitude that it's unfair to expect someone to have to put in the time to learn something? That someone has to work a little to get what they want? I've already been burned more than once and I'm still happy to talk to people and give my opinions on values or certain market dynamics. I just can't understand this sense of entitlement or saying "Old Timers" are holding out because they won't give you something of value for free.

 

 

I don't have an attitude against them. I don't blame them for not freely sharing info they feel is valuable. I would and have done the same in other fields.

 

A guide could be done. It has been done in the past and it could be done now. How accurate and how useful it would be is a different story. I would guess that such a guide may be of less use to a seasoned collector than a newbie. After all Lewis and Clark wouldn't have much use a map from the local supply depot would they?

 

I would get more use out of it than you would so I'd like to see one. It wouldn't turn a newbie into a seasoned collector overnight but it would condense some of the information available into 1 spot and provide a good resource.

[NelsonAI]

I agree that a price guide would not be meaningful.

 

Even seasoned pros can't always come to a consensus when assessing market values of OA. How many times do you see threads being posted speculating on where a specific piece of OA will end up at auction?

 

Often, no market data is given, just a gut number. "I think the price will end up being $xxxxx". In some instances, one also has to wonder if there is a bit of shilling going on as well. Is the individual making an unbiased prediction or is that person just shilling the art for a friend who owns the art? As Reuben, Rich and Felix have noted, it's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

 

I think enough seasoned collectors more than share enough information on these boards to newbies.

 

If the internet were more commonplace when I first started collecting, I wouldn't have made so many mistakes. It was a lot of trial and error when I started and I still learn something new all the time.

 

And for that, I'm grateful to these boards and everyone who has helped me over the years. Thanks.

 

Cheers!

N.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[buyatari]

I agree that a price guide would not be meaningful.

 

Even seasoned pros can't always come to a consensus when assessing market values of OA. How many times do you see threads being posted speculating on where a specific piece of OA will end up at auction?

 

Often, no market data is given, just a gut number. "I think the price will end up being $xxxxx". In some instances, one also has to wonder if there is a bit of shilling going on as well. Is the individual making an unbiased prediction or is that person just shilling the art for a friend who owns the art? As Reuben, Rich and Felix have noted, it's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

 

I think enough seasoned collectors more than share enough information on these boards to newbies.

 

If the internet were more commonplace when I first started collecting, I wouldn't have made so many mistakes. It was a lot of trial and error when I started and I still learn something new all the time.

 

And for that, I'm grateful to these boards and everyone who has helped me over the years. Thanks.

 

Cheers!

N.

 

 

I'd imagine a wide range not one price would have to be used. All taken with a note that this a one of kind medium and prices could very well exceed any value on any given day.

 

How about something like this.

McFarlane ASM covers $40k-$80+k

 

Still a huge range. On the key covers prices could still exceed these prices but it gives some idea of what they sell for. I don't think CAF market data has info to help with this. Enough info that if someone really wanted one they would know what they would have save up for to make an educated offer and not be laughed at. Might be turned down and they might lose an auction but they would have some idea of what to expect.

 

There are many things I'd like to pick up one day but I have no clue what they would sell for even a range like this would be helpful.

 

 

[CollectingFool]

I would get more use out of it than you would so I'd like to see one.

 

Well that's my point, I don't think you would. The last two guides were obsolete before they got to print. The information was useless two weeks after it was gathered, never mind two months later when it finally saw print.

 

This isn't a mature market. Prices fluctuate wildly and I think anyone putting any kind of faith into a guide would be more likely to get hurt than to be helped. And that's without taking into consideration the price manipulation I mentioned earlier.

 

 

 

 

[AKA Rick]

Rather than a price guide, probably a "Last Known Transaction Sale" publication based off of verifiable transations from auctions like Heritage, eBay, etc as well as by a series of reputable long standing art dealers (like Mike Burkey, Tom Flemming, Anthony Snyder, etc.) who become contributing ediors or the advisary board so-to-speak, so that it's a guide based on factual precedent more than speculation, and for those who use it as a guide, they can determine themselves whether anything was overpaid for or was a bargain, but the facts will always remain the same of that last known transaction. That at least provides the frames of reference, the context of understanding what a piece has sold for so that a buyer/seller can have some comparision to go off of if that's important to them. Plus that gives a historical footprint of where pieces have traded time after time too.

 

Every piece of art is one-of-a-kind, and the marketplace changes with the laws of supply and demand. This applies to both passionate collectors and speculative investors alike.

 

Guides are not bibles or meant to be legally regulating absolute rules, policies or proceedures in a black & white / right & wrong manner anyway... just like how you see comic books and sports cards in stores and at conventions with dealers touting "X % off of Guide" as well as books and cards in those penny / quarter / dollar bins that command values in the $10 range according to the "price guides" - - the guide is a reference tool, the phrase that always pays is "What's it worth to YOU?" - - and that's the best guide of all...

[artcollector9]

I don't think any dealers ought to be part of an 'advisory board' overseeing the truthfulness of reported sales...no offense....it's like asking the wolves to watch over the sheep....

[theloveforart]

TOTALLY AGREE with artcollector9

if the price guide is suppose to work it has to be legitimate sources that cannot be manipulated by people with certain agendas. Stick with the sales of ebay heritage and comic link and whatever other auction houses that exist. NO DEALERS

[comicartcom]

I don't think any dealers ought to be part of an 'advisory board' overseeing the truthfulness of reported sales...no offense....it's like asking the wolves to watch over the sheep....

 

TOTALLY AGREE with artcollector9

if the price guide is suppose to work it has to be legitimate sources that cannot be manipulated by people with certain agendas. Stick with the sales of ebay heritage and comic link and whatever other auction houses that exist. NO DEALERS

 

while I agree within certain parameters with Mitch, I defy loveforart to tell me that collectors do not also have their own agendas

 

reportage of actual sales is no good if you only include Heritage and ComicLink sales.

 

A "Price Guide" is supposed to all inclusive.

Otherwise, it should be called "Auction Sales Results". Doesn't CAF already have this function??

 

 

[CollectingFool]

I don't want to seem rude but I have to be blunt here. Anyone that still thinks a price guide for original comic art is possible is just deluding themselves and has no idea how this market works. Compiling auction results is nice but only tells you 15% of the story. Spin your wheels if you want, I can't see any good coming of it though.

 

 

[artcollector9]

FYI--(RIch, I'm Rob not Mitch.)

 

I agree with Ruben 100%. Impossible.

 

The ONLY value I see in a comic art price guide is for complete Newbies entering the market who want a BALLPARK value of an artist... or if a non collector has found a piece of art and wants to know if the Frazetta they found at an antique show is worth closer to $50 or $500 or $50000.

 

That does happen too- I get (non collecting ) guys writing me occasionally saying 'is my 2008 Blondie strip worth $50 or $1000?

 

Jerry Weist's book fit this bill nicely I thought.

 

But as a tool for seasoned collectors? No chance.

[Claudio]

It really sounds like people are starting to describe CAF's market data. If it ain't broke....

[comicartcom]

FYI--(RIch, I'm Rob not Mitch.)

 

I agree with Ruben 100%. Impossible.

 

The ONLY value I see in a comic art price guide is for complete Newbies entering the market who want a BALLPARK value of an artist... or if a non collector has found a piece of art and wants to know if the Frazetta they found at an antique show is worth closer to $50 or $500 or $50000.

 

That does happen too- I get (non collecting ) guys writing me occasionally saying 'is my 2008 Blondie strip worth $50 or $1000?

 

Jerry Weist's book fit this bill nicely I thought.

 

But as a tool for seasoned collectors? No chance.

 

oh sorry Rob..

[heartened]

FYI--(RIch, I'm Rob not Mitch.)

 

I agree with Ruben 100%. Impossible.

 

The ONLY value I see in a comic art price guide is for complete Newbies entering the market who want a BALLPARK value of an artist... or if a non collector has found a piece of art and wants to know if the Frazetta they found at an antique show is worth closer to $50 or $500 or $50000.

 

That does happen too- I get (non collecting ) guys writing me occasionally saying 'is my 2008 Blondie strip worth $50 or $1000?

 

Jerry Weist's book fit this bill nicely I thought.

 

But as a tool for seasoned collectors? No chance.

 

Agree the book was good for new collectors. Answers some of the basic questions, and the rest they will have to "live and learn". Must admit that I used that book for ballpark figures, and considerations on which artists and which of their works were/are considered higher than the remainder of their work. Again, all good as a ballpark starting point, but certainly not helpful once you're neck deep in the hobby. At that point your individual taste and collecting interests supercede any guide.

 

[Eric Seffinga]

Frankly, I'm surprised this got talked about for 6 pages.

 

-e.