And people wonder why folks get a little bit peeved...

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

And I agree that CGC does not consider pressing restoration. But if I recall correctly, that's only because they can't accurately identify it and/or prove it.

 

I don't remember that being the case at all.

Doesn't mean it's not true.

 

Prove it.

Prove it's not true. Or for that matter...contribute something of substance. Somthing other than just post after post asking for chart, graphs, numerical data, and statistical analysis in an attempt to show everyone that you're know more about paper conservation the the LOC.

 

You're quoting an emailed reponse from some conservator at the LOC - a response that couldn't be more vague if you coated it with butter, dressed it up in a $2000 suit and put it on the stand in an impeachment trial - and pretending it's some sort of smoking gun?

 

Show me some scientific data that says a professional pressing job does more damage than, say, storing a comic book in a car on a hot day, and you might actually be taken seriously - right now, you're just looking like a fool.

 

[mica]

I like Joey, and I like Domo.

 

I'm weird.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I'm weird.

 

understatement

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Every pressing thread is the worst pressing thread this year.

 

Fixed that for you.

[MrBedrock]

Gene, without knowing nearly as much about OA as you, having read every thread in OA for the last year or two, I'd like your thoughts upon any restoration (if any are done) in the world of OA.

 

Restoration in OA is viewed very differently from the comic book world. Much of the "restoration" that goes on in the hobby would better be described as "conservation", like de-acidification of the paper stock. No one would argue that procedures such as this would *enhance* the value of OA, not detract from it.

 

Similarly, few would begrudge replacing stats that have fallen off or been lost. I don't even think many cleaning procedures would necessarily damage the value of most artwork. Now, there are restoration practices in the OA world that are frowned upon, such as having a piece partially or fully re-inked after the original publication date, though, even then, the effect on value is much less pronounced than even a small hit of color touch on an otherwise unrestored comic, for example.

 

At the end of the day, you're buying the art more than you are buying the condition. In the realm of comic books, where there are multiple copies of any given title, you are buying the condition as much as the book itself, so that is why restoration has such a dramatic effect on prices.

 

Furthermore, from my minor dabblings in the rare book market, restoration in that hobby is viewed without the massive stigma it carries in the comic book world as well. So, any attempts to de-stigmatize restoration (including pressing) by comparisons to OA or rare books, where it is much more readily accepted, is very misleading.

But shouldn't a piece of art that is completely untouched and original be worth more than a similar piece (with similar composition and similar content...say two nearly identical dailies from the same artist) that is cleaned and has stats replaced?

 

Remember, if you say yes or no then it blows your whole reason for leaving the slabbed comic market.

[shortstack comics]

well, I think you are all wrong. Pressing is... um.. does... um... uh... um...

 

 

WOLVERINES!!!!!

 

 

 

[seanfingh]

I'm weird.

 

understatement

 

I like Chris, because even though we disagree about some aspects of collecting, he is (almost) always respectful and nearly always insightful. He doesn't run around like a lap dog clapping for every bolstering post. He just states his thoughts cogently and presents them clearly.

 

He also tries to refute opposing positions, rather than ignoring them or spinning them. He also is very upfront about where he is coming from; unlike posters that pretend that a thread is about damage to a comic, when it really is about said poster's agenda to promulgate the idea that pressing is resto.

 

It is possible to have discourse, and to disagree, without being a-holes.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I like Chris

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I'm weird.

 

understatement

 

I like Chris, because even though we disagree about some aspects of collecting, he is (almost) always respectful and nearly always insightful. He doesn't run around like a lap dog clapping for every bolstering post. He just states his thoughts cogently and presents them clearly.

 

He also tries to refute opposing positions, rather than ignoring them or spinning them. He also is very upfront about where he is coming from; unlike posters that pretend that a thread is about damage to a comic, when it really is about said poster's agenda to promulgate the idea that pressing is resto.

 

It is possible to have discourse, and to disagree, without being a-holes.

 

Its possible, not likely, but possible.

 

Yeah, Chris is a nice guy. Sent some great stuff to me in the Forum Santa exchange a few years ago...really put some thought into it, which not everyone does. (thumbs u

[nearmint]

This is the worst pressing thread this year.

 

I agree. I thought Domo had a point, but I think he's just running us in circles for fun.

Duh, I realized his HOURS ago. Hope you had a productive day otherwise. Seriously!

 

Next time PM me.

[greggy]

This is the worst pressing thread this year.

 

I agree. I thought Domo had a point, but I think he's just running us in circles for fun.

Duh, I realized his HOURS ago. Hope you had a productive day otherwise. Seriously!

 

Next time PM me.

Why? It wasn't my day being wasted

[MrBedrock]

Why? It wasn't my day being wasted

You are wasted every day.

[Domo Arigato]

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process does will shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

Smoking does cause damage to your body.

fact

 

Eating a double cheeseburger is unhealthy.

fact

 

Pressing a comic does damage it.

fact

 

Even without specifics...these facts are very important to me.

 

So, you clearly don't ever eat a cheeseburger, drink alcohol, have a cigarette, eat non-organic food, etc. etc. etc. because all of those things are, even in some small way, harmful, right?

Why do so many people feel they have to go to the exteme in some vain attempt to try to make a point? I really can't figure that out.

 

Oh well...taking your extreme example to heart...I'll offer up an equally ridiculous response to it.

 

If I smoke a cigarette (which I don't) there is a label right there on the package warning me. I don't have to call the tobacco company and ask them if there's any danger to me.

 

If I drink a beer...again there is a warning label contributing to the common knowledge that we are all aware of regarding the risks.

 

With a cheeseburger, it's common knowledge that it is an unhealthy product and that there are proven risks associated with that kind of diet (this dietary information is provided in pamplets available at the restaurants as well).

 

The point is, these people aren't pisssing in my ear and telling me it's a q-tip. I'm fully aware of what I'm getting when I purchase these products. That is not always the case with a pressed comic.

 

Actually, you've completely changed the argument from one of quantifying the "harm" that Pressing does, to that of Disclosure. Nice slight of hand, but it doesn't advance your argument one bit. Please stick to the issue at hand...offer us something tangible as to the actual harm that Pressing does to a comic or give it up.

They go hand in hand, so I haven't changed anything. The U.S. Library of Congress has stated that their studies have shown that both the addition of heat and/or moisture does measurable harm. The pressers have long stated that the practice does no damage. They were wrong. Plain and simple. Refute that with your own experts that have experience equal to or exceeding those of conservators at the U.S. Library of Congress or admit you don't know what you're talking about.

The only thing I don't know is why I ever bothered to enter into a cyclical argument with someone like you....

 

You've still offered NOTHING meaningful in the way of quantifiable data, when you have that, please feel free to get back to me. Thanks. Bye. (thumbs u

I don't know why you did it either. You obviously don't know enough about the subject to do anything but argue in circles. And I've offered what the Library of Congress says in regards to a specific question presented to them about the pressing of comics...it will damage the paper. That's a hell of a lot more than you've offered.

[Domo Arigato]

I'm weird.

 

understatement

 

I like Chris, because even though we disagree about some aspects of collecting, he is (almost) always respectful and nearly always insightful. He doesn't run around like a lap dog clapping for every bolstering post. He just states his thoughts cogently and presents them clearly.

 

He also tries to refute opposing positions, rather than ignoring them or spinning them. He also is very upfront about where he is coming from; unlike posters that pretend that a thread is about damage to a comic, when it really is about said poster's agenda to promulgate the idea that pressing is resto.

 

It is possible to have discourse, and to disagree, without being a-holes.

You should try taking your own advice sometimes.

 

And I don't have an "agenda" when it comes to pressing. That's just one of those buzz words that the pro-pressing crowd likes to throw out when they want to try to summarily dismiss something they can't legitimately refute. The Library of Congress was asked a specific and well thought out question by Fantastic_Four regarding pressing a comic book and they responded prettly plainly and clearly. Just not with what you wanted to hear.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Respect has been lost for a few posters in this thread, that is for sure.

 

 

Agreed. (thumbs u

 

I hope it's not me. I'm already dangling near CapFreak levels...

 

As i told someone else via PM, I have already achieved an appropriate respect equilibrium with you.

 

 

This post made me grin

[RockMyAmadeus]

Comic collectors and cupcake bakers may not appear to have much in common, but their passion about their respective hobbies really stirs up the emotion - cupake conspiracy!

 

2 girlsandacupcake

 

"I also let them know this is not the best way to endear themselves to the huge online cupcake community. "

 

I love reading pressing threads but I will certainly go for a good cupcake war!

 

Yep, and as one of the posters there states "Emphasis on HUGE! Cupcake lovers of the web UNITE!"

 

Wonder what would happen if you pressed a cupcake?

 

 

And:

 

 

(you can find ANYTHING on the interwebs!)

 

How can you tell they're pressed?

 

Cause the pictures say so.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process does will shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

Smoking does cause damage to your body.

fact

 

Eating a double cheeseburger is unhealthy.

fact

 

Pressing a comic does damage it.

fact

 

Even without specifics...these facts are very important to me.

 

So, you clearly don't ever eat a cheeseburger, drink alcohol, have a cigarette, eat non-organic food, etc. etc. etc. because all of those things are, even in some small way, harmful, right?

Why do so many people feel they have to go to the exteme in some vain attempt to try to make a point? I really can't figure that out.

 

Oh well...taking your extreme example to heart...I'll offer up an equally ridiculous response to it.

 

If I smoke a cigarette (which I don't) there is a label right there on the package warning me. I don't have to call the tobacco company and ask them if there's any danger to me.

 

If I drink a beer...again there is a warning label contributing to the common knowledge that we are all aware of regarding the risks.

 

With a cheeseburger, it's common knowledge that it is an unhealthy product and that there are proven risks associated with that kind of diet (this dietary information is provided in pamplets available at the restaurants as well).

 

The point is, these people aren't pisssing in my ear and telling me it's a q-tip. I'm fully aware of what I'm getting when I purchase these products. That is not always the case with a pressed comic.

 

Actually, you've completely changed the argument from one of quantifying the "harm" that Pressing does, to that of Disclosure. Nice slight of hand, but it doesn't advance your argument one bit. Please stick to the issue at hand...offer us something tangible as to the actual harm that Pressing does to a comic or give it up.

They go hand in hand, so I haven't changed anything. The U.S. Library of Congress has stated that their studies have shown that both the addition of heat and/or moisture does measurable harm. The pressers have long stated that the practice does no damage. They were wrong. Plain and simple. Refute that with your own experts that have experience equal to or exceeding those of conservators at the U.S. Library of Congress or admit you don't know what you're talking about.

The only thing I don't know is why I ever bothered to enter into a cyclical argument with someone like you....

 

You've still offered NOTHING meaningful in the way of quantifiable data, when you have that, please feel free to get back to me. Thanks. Bye. (thumbs u

I don't know why you did it either. You obviously don't know enough about the subject to do anything but argue in circles. And I've offered what the Library of Congress says in regards to a specific question presented to them about the pressing of comics...it will damage the paper. That's a hell of a lot more than you've offered.

 

Actually, what you offered was analagous to my double hamburger and cigarette scenario.

 

Pressing harms comics. Great. That's insightful. You might as well has been saying that farts stink, and smoking near an open fuel source is dangerous.

 

But when the inevitable questions arise about how meaningful that damage is, you basically do everything but admit that neither you, nor the Library of Congress, can really quantify it in any meaningful way. If you could, you'd have a great point that everyone on this Board, whether pro or anti-presser would find extremely interesting. If it were possible to quantify that a standard press job takes decades off the lifespan of a normal comic, heads would turn and people would take notice.

 

Instead, we got Pressing harms comics because the LOC says so.

 

If you want to pat yourself on the back for such insight, by all means, go right ahead...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Domo Arigato]

I like Joey, and I like Domo.

 

I'm weird.

I like Joey as well and just traded a couple of nice PM's with him.

 

l also like you...although that dog with the hair piece does weird me out a little.

[seanfingh]

I'm weird.

 

understatement

 

I like Chris, because even though we disagree about some aspects of collecting, he is (almost) always respectful and nearly always insightful. He doesn't run around like a lap dog clapping for every bolstering post. He just states his thoughts cogently and presents them clearly.

 

He also tries to refute opposing positions, rather than ignoring them or spinning them. He also is very upfront about where he is coming from; unlike posters that pretend that a thread is about damage to a comic, when it really is about said poster's agenda to promulgate the idea that pressing is resto.

 

It is possible to have discourse, and to disagree, without being a-holes.

You should try taking your own advice sometimes.

 

And I don't have an "agenda" when it comes to pressing. That's just one of those buzz words that the pro-pressing crowd likes to throw out when they want to try to summarily dismiss something they can't legitimately refute. The Library of Congress was asked a specific and well thought out question by Fantastic_Four regarding pressing a comic book and they responded prettly plainly and clearly. Just not with what you wanted to hear.

 

(thumbs u

[Dale Roberts]

Joey...I do know that you actively disclose and I'm glad for that. I just think that pressing needs to be called what it is and actively disclosed by everyone. Whether we will both be in the ground before our books or not doesn't really matter.

 

There is a very good chance that the owner of a book that has been slightly micro-trimmed without disclosure will never know it. The book was trimmed during manufacture and was ever so slightly micro-trimmed by someone after that. The book is not going to disintegrate any quicker because of it. But that doesn't mean that the non-disclosure of the work is ok as long as the guy didn't ask. Not really a great analogy...and it doesn't aply to you since you do disclose...but hopefully you'll get the point I'm trying to make.

 

If I spent every moment of this hobby worrying about what was done to every book I own I would no longer enjoy what I do.

 

I am not saying ignorance is bliss but the more I learned about certain practices the more tolerant I am of them. I do not want a trimmed book, but I may own one anyway. Shame on the seller who does this. But then again, had I asked he may have said yes, it was trimmed.

 

You use your LOC info to substantiate your side of the argument, and I am not arguing the point that damage can/is done. A book that sits their is slowly decaying so I see the logic. What I do not see offered is the quantifiable data. A pressed book will only have a shelf life of XXX years compared to the same non-pressed book that has YYYYY shelf life.

 

To substantiate my side of the argument, as of this moment, CGC does not consider pressing restoration. Until that changes I will use that as my benchmark.

Yes...the seller might have admitted the book was trimmed if you asked him...but you should never have to ask. I would hate to have to ask every time I bought a book if it had (fill in the blank here with every type of restoration/desctruction that could be done to a book).

 

A point I'm trying to make is that many pressers (not all) have been saying for a LONG time that pressing does no damage in an effort to justify their lack of disclosure. Regardless of the lack of quantifiable data from the LOC...we now know that this is simply not true. Pressing a book (utilizing heat and/or moisture) does cause damage. Is it small? Probably. But it's damage done to a book by an individual in order to improve the outward look of the book and should be proactively disclosed by those who do it.

 

And I agree that CGC does not consider pressing restoration. But if I recall correctly, that's only because they can't accurately identify it and/or prove it. In light of the recent response from the Library of Congress, I just don't think their stance on it is satisfactory.

I am not asking this in an argumentative way or just to be a tool, but what world do you live in where you feel it is solely the sellers responsibilty to disclose anything to a buyer? I ask questions about everything. Anyone who has ever sold to me here on the boards knows I can be a royal PITA, but I do not like surprises after the fact. If I know before I close the deal I am OK with that. I can then decide to buy or not.

WTF? Are you just trying to be a tool?

 

I live in a world where I feel a seller should disclose work they've had done to a book prior to selling it. Especially if that work has caused damage to the book.

 

By the same token...what kind of world do you live in where you feel it's ok if someone knowingly and willingly does damage to a book and then doesn't disclose that to their buyer?

 

If the pressing caused damage to the book, CGC would reveal it and grade the book accordingly.. If it hasn't, you are speculating as to whether it ever will.

 

By the way, what color is the sky in your world?