And people wonder why folks get a little bit peeved...

[hockey&comicsguy]

 

But I'll tell you what...I'll give you the first name (Dale) of one individual who is "pro-pressing" and has stated that it does no damage. There are others...but that's all you get for free. Maybe now you can put the TV remote down, crawl off the couch, and actually do something for yourself.

 

So Dale has said with absolutely certainty that pressing causes no harm to comics. OK, I will ask him about that since you're too much of a Nancy to do it yourself. This is just like junior hockey, I gotta go fight the finesse guy's fight for him.

 

In all seriousness though. Why continue going back and forth with a handful of us when you could just quote Dale and get a direct response from the person who is on the complete other side of this issue? I would love to see what Dale has to say about the claims you say he's making. If he truly believes that no damage is being done, I'd like to hear how came to that conclusion.

 

That being said. Exactly what argument would you present to Dale regarding damage? As it stands, I have not seen you nor any anti-presser provide any hard evidence as to the extent of damage we're talking about. Is this merely an exercise for you to get him to reverse his claim and admit that POTENTIALLY there could be issues?

 

If he were to do that, what next? Nobody seems to know with any certainty how bad the damage might be. So if Dale can't prove anything. And you can't prove anything. Where are we left?

 

Right back F-ing where we always are.

[nearmint]

I predict this thread will be locked by morning.

 

From your lips to Arch's ears.

[hockey&comicsguy]

Why do you think it's ok for them to do that? I don't feel that's right.

 

This is a car wreck. Just can't get away from it.

 

I haven't seen once where Jeff has said it's okay for people to say unequivocally that pressing does no damage to comics. You show me where he said that. Otherwise, I suggest you stop asking him why he feels its ok when he hasn't said anything of the sort.

 

I'm still waiting for you or anyone on the anti pressing side to address this notion of damage and give any evidence you can as to how significant it is or will become some day. Matter of fact, that question is open to anyone. If anyone can provide hard evidence as to the extent of damage pressing causes, I would love to hear it.

By arguing the line of defense that he is, he is inferring that it's ok. I'm just asking him why.

 

And as I've already pointed out...it's up to the pressers to substantiate the claims that many have made that it does no damage to the book. And if they do admit that it causes damage, it's not our responsibility to tell them how much. They're the ones manipulating the books...it's their responsibility to find out how much damage their process does and disclose it to their customers.

 

wildly_fanciful_statement...it works both ways. If you have such a hardon that it does damage than prove your side of the argument. Otherwise the argument is just a he said she said and I...the average comic consumer...will stay squarely in the middle and watch you to play chicken until the other budges.

 

Substantiate your vociferous argument....or can you? You simply don't know how much damage it does or doesn't and your too lazy to do the legwork to back it up. So you argue your side based solely on personal conviction?

 

Noble but pointless. It's like arguing the existence of God if you follow this line of thinking.

That's just it. It doesn't work both ways. Those performing the service and making the claims are the ones responsible for backing them up. Not the other way around. Otherwise...stop lying about it.

If you dont offer the evidence necessary to prove your point how can you possibly hope to change the system?

 

I believe you enjoy the argument more than you have any real conviction on the actual topic.

 

Im through reading this thread.

 

Pressing is not resto.

 

and I still don't care if a book is pressed

I've already seen some in here finally admit that pressing could be doing some damage to the comics. Looks to me like there's been some change going on already. And I'm not offering the evidence because I'm not the one making the claim or hiding the fact of the potential damage from my customers. It's up to those who are manipulating the books to either prove that it does no harm...or proactively disclose the work and the damage it causes.

 

And I'll agree with you somewhat...pressing doesn't appear to be resto...it actually appears to be restoration with a little bit of destruction thrown in for good measure.

 

 

This is hilarious if you read it.

 

You yourself say these sellers may be hiding "potential" harm.

 

What's potential about it. You absolutely ARE MAKING A CLAIM. You claim the harm is absolute fact. "destruction thrown in" are your words.

 

So do you want people to agree that it causes damage or that it potentially causes damage?

 

Am I missing something? Did you not say that pressing causes damage to comics? Because if you did, that sure as sounds like a claim that's being made.

 

And don't deflect. This isn't to say the other side isn't making their own claims. Just that you are making your own.

 

So apparently other people have to prove their claims but you don't have to prove yours? I see how this game works now.

[buttock]

Incidentally, most drug litigation cases are failure to warn (and a subset of failure to test, in some jurisdictions, that's a separate cause of action) -- thus a manufacturer has put a drug on the market, promoted it for benefits, but not tested or warned of a potential significant harm (for HRT, breast cancer, Paxil, heart malformations and death in infants, so on and so forth).

 

In the pressing analogy, it'd be, someone knew or should have known that pressing was harmful to the books but failed to warn of the harm. Here, the key would be finding who owed a duty to the customer buying a book and should they have known that pressing was harmful.

But in this case, many pressers are making a specific claim. Not failing to warn. They are actually claiming that pressing does no harm to a book with no evidence to back this claim up.

 

Well, strictly following this claim, I'm not sure the drug analogy is best then. But following through with the analogy would be this -- it would be like a drug company saying, our drug does (x) -- promote it for say a benefit, but then it later comes out through studies, no it actually doesn't do what it says AND oh by the way it's actually harmful.

 

So pressing does no harm --

 

Of course here the problem is, it is not generally accepted, nor is there adequate evidence to say that the pro pressers are saying, hey, there's nothing wrong with pressing, but you can prove they actually knew it.

 

In the drug context, usually we have documents and internal corporate documents which show they were on notice of the harm.

Are you saying a drug manufacturer can make a claim about a drug..like saying it is not known to cause birth defects in women who are pregnant...or that it does cure breast cancer...without actually doing any tests prior to making this claim to back it up?

 

If you are, then I'd say you're drinking on the job. If you aren't, then my analogy is more than applicable in this situation and any attempt to nitpick the semantics of it are childish in the extreme.

 

It's like he can't read.

[buttock]

 

Here's what Dale said:

 

Personally, if the only change is that the book will last 400 years as opposed to 420 years, I could care less.

 

Clearly, Dale falls into the "there may be damage, but if there is it's so ridiculously benign that there's no use worrying about it" crowd. He does not claim that absolutely no damage is done.

 

Now Jeff, don't go throwing facts about.

[mschmidt]

But I'll tell you what...I'll give you the first name (Dale) of one individual who is "pro-pressing" and has stated that it does no damage. There are others...but that's all you get for free. Maybe now you can put the TV remote down, crawl off the couch, and actually do something for yourself.

 

Dale has not stated in this thread that pressing does absolutely no harm to comic books.

Nor has anyone else.

 

Why do you feel the need to lie about something that's so easy to check?

[Domo Arigato]

Here's what Dale said:

 

Personally, if the only change is that the book will last 400 years as opposed to 420 years, I could care less.

 

Clearly, Dale falls into the "there may be damage, but if there is it's so ridiculously benign that there's no use worrying about it" crowd. He does not claim that absolutely no damage is done.

 

 

Yes...he did say that...after much arguing to even get him to admit that. But he also said this prior:

 

Pressing is simply a flattening process. Doesn't do anything else.

 

He's also made other posts alluding to the same claim...that pressing does no damage.

[towards2112]

I predict this thread will be locked by morning.

 

From your lips to Arch's ears.

 

Mop and bucket ready.

[Domo Arigato]

 

But I'll tell you what...I'll give you the first name (Dale) of one individual who is "pro-pressing" and has stated that it does no damage. There are others...but that's all you get for free. Maybe now you can put the TV remote down, crawl off the couch, and actually do something for yourself.

 

So Dale has said with absolutely certainty that pressing causes no harm to comics. OK, I will ask him about that since you're too much of a Nancy to do it yourself. This is just like junior hockey, I gotta go fight the finesse guy's fight for him.

 

In all seriousness though. Why continue going back and forth with a handful of us when you could just quote Dale and get a direct response from the person who is on the complete other side of this issue? I would love to see what Dale has to say about the claims you say he's making. If he truly believes that no damage is being done, I'd like to hear how came to that conclusion.

 

That being said. Exactly what argument would you present to Dale regarding damage? As it stands, I have not seen you nor any anti-presser provide any hard evidence as to the extent of damage we're talking about. Is this merely an exercise for you to get him to reverse his claim and admit that POTENTIALLY there could be issues?

 

If he were to do that, what next? Nobody seems to know with any certainty how bad the damage might be. So if Dale can't prove anything. And you can't prove anything. Where are we left?

 

Right back F-ing where we always are.

I confronted Dale in my very first post in this thread. Seriously...have you even read any of this thread or do you have the slightest idea what's going on?

[october]

The US unemployment rate is starting to make a lot more sense.

[whisp]

Personally I think it all leads back to disclosure and really it should be up to the buyer if they want to buy a pressed book or not and up to the seller to disclose it if they actually know if it has or not. Like any industry you will have shady characters trying to make a buck. I myself have seen some interesting things in the background when it has come to pressing on these boards but have not called out these oddities where I feel a certain individual are hiding the fact a book is pressed. In the end though there is some on these boards that do disclose. The problem comes in when you have individuals that are not disclosing.

 

Now just throwing this out there but wouldn't even a presser want to know if a book has been pressed or not when buying a book?

 

Anyways we could argue pressing on the boards and I feel both sides have made valid points but in the end it comes down to the person buying the book.

 

I also would like to say that there seems to be some individuals that don't know the difference between preservation and conservation which is based on some of the replies I have seen in this thread.

[seanfingh]

: This is just like junior hockey, I gotta go fight the finesse guy's fight for him.

 

 

I just knew you were a goon.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

wow, now we're getting into very thinly veiled accusations of individual's ethics or lack thereof.

 

 

maybe we can go full libelous before this thing completely dissolves

 

I'm still waiting for the obligatory pressers are like nazis reference...

[Domo Arigato]

Why do you think it's ok for them to do that? I don't feel that's right.

 

This is a car wreck. Just can't get away from it.

 

I haven't seen once where Jeff has said it's okay for people to say unequivocally that pressing does no damage to comics. You show me where he said that. Otherwise, I suggest you stop asking him why he feels its ok when he hasn't said anything of the sort.

 

I'm still waiting for you or anyone on the anti pressing side to address this notion of damage and give any evidence you can as to how significant it is or will become some day. Matter of fact, that question is open to anyone. If anyone can provide hard evidence as to the extent of damage pressing causes, I would love to hear it.

By arguing the line of defense that he is, he is inferring that it's ok. I'm just asking him why.

 

And as I've already pointed out...it's up to the pressers to substantiate the claims that many have made that it does no damage to the book. And if they do admit that it causes damage, it's not our responsibility to tell them how much. They're the ones manipulating the books...it's their responsibility to find out how much damage their process does and disclose it to their customers.

 

wildly_fanciful_statement...it works both ways. If you have such a hardon that it does damage than prove your side of the argument. Otherwise the argument is just a he said she said and I...the average comic consumer...will stay squarely in the middle and watch you to play chicken until the other budges.

 

Substantiate your vociferous argument....or can you? You simply don't know how much damage it does or doesn't and your too lazy to do the legwork to back it up. So you argue your side based solely on personal conviction?

 

Noble but pointless. It's like arguing the existence of God if you follow this line of thinking.

That's just it. It doesn't work both ways. Those performing the service and making the claims are the ones responsible for backing them up. Not the other way around. Otherwise...stop lying about it.

If you dont offer the evidence necessary to prove your point how can you possibly hope to change the system?

 

I believe you enjoy the argument more than you have any real conviction on the actual topic.

 

Im through reading this thread.

 

Pressing is not resto.

 

and I still don't care if a book is pressed

I've already seen some in here finally admit that pressing could be doing some damage to the comics. Looks to me like there's been some change going on already. And I'm not offering the evidence because I'm not the one making the claim or hiding the fact of the potential damage from my customers. It's up to those who are manipulating the books to either prove that it does no harm...or proactively disclose the work and the damage it causes.

 

And I'll agree with you somewhat...pressing doesn't appear to be resto...it actually appears to be restoration with a little bit of destruction thrown in for good measure.

 

 

This is hilarious if you read it.

 

You yourself say these sellers may be hiding "potential" harm.

 

What's potential about it. You absolutely ARE MAKING A CLAIM. You claim the harm is absolute fact. "destruction thrown in" are your words.

 

So do you want people to agree that it causes damage or that it potentially causes damage?

 

Am I missing something? Did you not say that pressing causes damage to comics? Because if you did, that sure as sounds like a claim that's being made.

 

And don't deflect. This isn't to say the other side isn't making their own claims. Just that you are making your own.

 

So apparently other people have to prove their claims but you don't have to prove yours? I see how this game works now.

The Library of Congress has done numerous tests that determined that increased heat accelerates the aging process of the type of paper that comics are made of. Pressers uses increased heat to press comics. The LOC stated very clearly that they don't recommend this process. The word "potential" was nothing more than a mistake on my part and shouldn't have been included in the sentence. Sorry...I didn't realize something like that could make the vein in your forehead explode so easily.

[Paratrooper]

Who wants to join me in another thread?

[Domo Arigato]

But I'll tell you what...I'll give you the first name (Dale) of one individual who is "pro-pressing" and has stated that it does no damage. There are others...but that's all you get for free. Maybe now you can put the TV remote down, crawl off the couch, and actually do something for yourself.

 

Dale has not stated in this thread that pressing does absolutely no harm to comic books.

Nor has anyone else.

 

Why do you feel the need to lie about something that's so easy to check?

Yes he has. Why do you feel the need to lie about me in an attempt to discredit me?

[whisp]

Why do you think it's ok for them to do that? I don't feel that's right.

 

This is a car wreck. Just can't get away from it.

 

I haven't seen once where Jeff has said it's okay for people to say unequivocally that pressing does no damage to comics. You show me where he said that. Otherwise, I suggest you stop asking him why he feels its ok when he hasn't said anything of the sort.

 

I'm still waiting for you or anyone on the anti pressing side to address this notion of damage and give any evidence you can as to how significant it is or will become some day. Matter of fact, that question is open to anyone. If anyone can provide hard evidence as to the extent of damage pressing causes, I would love to hear it.

By arguing the line of defense that he is, he is inferring that it's ok. I'm just asking him why.

 

And as I've already pointed out...it's up to the pressers to substantiate the claims that many have made that it does no damage to the book. And if they do admit that it causes damage, it's not our responsibility to tell them how much. They're the ones manipulating the books...it's their responsibility to find out how much damage their process does and disclose it to their customers.

 

wildly_fanciful_statement...it works both ways. If you have such a hardon that it does damage than prove your side of the argument. Otherwise the argument is just a he said she said and I...the average comic consumer...will stay squarely in the middle and watch you to play chicken until the other budges.

 

Substantiate your vociferous argument....or can you? You simply don't know how much damage it does or doesn't and your too lazy to do the legwork to back it up. So you argue your side based solely on personal conviction?

 

Noble but pointless. It's like arguing the existence of God if you follow this line of thinking.

That's just it. It doesn't work both ways. Those performing the service and making the claims are the ones responsible for backing them up. Not the other way around. Otherwise...stop lying about it.

If you dont offer the evidence necessary to prove your point how can you possibly hope to change the system?

 

I believe you enjoy the argument more than you have any real conviction on the actual topic.

 

Im through reading this thread.

 

Pressing is not resto.

 

and I still don't care if a book is pressed

I've already seen some in here finally admit that pressing could be doing some damage to the comics. Looks to me like there's been some change going on already. And I'm not offering the evidence because I'm not the one making the claim or hiding the fact of the potential damage from my customers. It's up to those who are manipulating the books to either prove that it does no harm...or proactively disclose the work and the damage it causes.

 

And I'll agree with you somewhat...pressing doesn't appear to be resto...it actually appears to be restoration with a little bit of destruction thrown in for good measure.

 

 

This is hilarious if you read it.

 

You yourself say these sellers may be hiding "potential" harm.

 

What's potential about it. You absolutely ARE MAKING A CLAIM. You claim the harm is absolute fact. "destruction thrown in" are your words.

 

So do you want people to agree that it causes damage or that it potentially causes damage?

 

Am I missing something? Did you not say that pressing causes damage to comics? Because if you did, that sure as sounds like a claim that's being made.

 

And don't deflect. This isn't to say the other side isn't making their own claims. Just that you are making your own.

 

So apparently other people have to prove their claims but you don't have to prove yours? I see how this game works now.

The Library of Congress has done numerous tests that determined that increased heat accelerates the aging process of the type of paper that comics are made of. Pressers uses increased heat to press comics. The LOC stated very clearly that they don't recommend this process. The word "potential" was nothing more than a mistake on my part and shouldn't have been included in the sentence. Sorry...I didn't realize something like that could make the vein in your forehead explode so easily.

 

 

Don't forget water/humidty.

[Domo Arigato]

 

Here's what Dale said:

 

Personally, if the only change is that the book will last 400 years as opposed to 420 years, I could care less.

 

Clearly, Dale falls into the "there may be damage, but if there is it's so ridiculously benign that there's no use worrying about it" crowd. He does not claim that absolutely no damage is done.

 

Now Jeff, don't go throwing facts about.

It appears he likes to throw selective facts and half truths around. Unfortunately, neither of them does anybody any good.

[nearmint]

Why do you think it's ok for them to do that? I don't feel that's right.

 

This is a car wreck. Just can't get away from it.

 

I haven't seen once where Jeff has said it's okay for people to say unequivocally that pressing does no damage to comics. You show me where he said that. Otherwise, I suggest you stop asking him why he feels its ok when he hasn't said anything of the sort.

 

I'm still waiting for you or anyone on the anti pressing side to address this notion of damage and give any evidence you can as to how significant it is or will become some day. Matter of fact, that question is open to anyone. If anyone can provide hard evidence as to the extent of damage pressing causes, I would love to hear it.

By arguing the line of defense that he is, he is inferring that it's ok. I'm just asking him why.

 

And as I've already pointed out...it's up to the pressers to substantiate the claims that many have made that it does no damage to the book. And if they do admit that it causes damage, it's not our responsibility to tell them how much. They're the ones manipulating the books...it's their responsibility to find out how much damage their process does and disclose it to their customers.

 

wildly_fanciful_statement...it works both ways. If you have such a hardon that it does damage than prove your side of the argument. Otherwise the argument is just a he said she said and I...the average comic consumer...will stay squarely in the middle and watch you to play chicken until the other budges.

 

Substantiate your vociferous argument....or can you? You simply don't know how much damage it does or doesn't and your too lazy to do the legwork to back it up. So you argue your side based solely on personal conviction?

 

Noble but pointless. It's like arguing the existence of God if you follow this line of thinking.

That's just it. It doesn't work both ways. Those performing the service and making the claims are the ones responsible for backing them up. Not the other way around. Otherwise...stop lying about it.

If you dont offer the evidence necessary to prove your point how can you possibly hope to change the system?

 

I believe you enjoy the argument more than you have any real conviction on the actual topic.

 

Im through reading this thread.

 

Pressing is not resto.

 

and I still don't care if a book is pressed

I've already seen some in here finally admit that pressing could be doing some damage to the comics. Looks to me like there's been some change going on already. And I'm not offering the evidence because I'm not the one making the claim or hiding the fact of the potential damage from my customers. It's up to those who are manipulating the books to either prove that it does no harm...or proactively disclose the work and the damage it causes.

 

And I'll agree with you somewhat...pressing doesn't appear to be resto...it actually appears to be restoration with a little bit of destruction thrown in for good measure.

 

 

This is hilarious if you read it.

 

You yourself say these sellers may be hiding "potential" harm.

 

What's potential about it. You absolutely ARE MAKING A CLAIM. You claim the harm is absolute fact. "destruction thrown in" are your words.

 

So do you want people to agree that it causes damage or that it potentially causes damage?

 

Am I missing something? Did you not say that pressing causes damage to comics? Because if you did, that sure as sounds like a claim that's being made.

 

And don't deflect. This isn't to say the other side isn't making their own claims. Just that you are making your own.

 

So apparently other people have to prove their claims but you don't have to prove yours? I see how this game works now.

The Library of Congress has done numerous tests that determined that increased heat accelerates the aging process of the type of paper that comics are made of. Pressers uses increased heat to press comics. The LOC stated very clearly that they don't recommend this process. The word "potential" was nothing more than a mistake on my part and shouldn't have been included in the sentence. Sorry...I didn't realize something like that could make the vein in your forehead explode so easily.

 

Show me where in the quote from the LOC that they state that they conducted the studies.

[nearmint]

 

Here's what Dale said:

 

Personally, if the only change is that the book will last 400 years as opposed to 420 years, I could care less.

 

Clearly, Dale falls into the "there may be damage, but if there is it's so ridiculously benign that there's no use worrying about it" crowd. He does not claim that absolutely no damage is done.

 

Now Jeff, don't go throwing facts about.

It appears he likes to throw selective facts and half truths around. Unfortunately, neither of them does anybody any good.

 

It should be telling to you that not even the anti-pressers are backing you up here. You are truly an island.