And people wonder why folks get a little bit peeved...

[buttock]

Arex is a poopie head.

 

Talk about beating a dead horse...

[Mr. Zipper]

 

To me, this is the most head-scratching aspect of the debate...

 

Some feel the the LOC statement is not to be taken seriously and does not provide adequate detail.

 

Yet, the opposing view has absolutely no evidence or independent expert opinion to support their belief.

 

Domo comes to the table with **something** and the other side has nothing other than personal opinion. Who has more credibility?

 

 

Hey Zip,

 

...

 

After it became clear (to me) that Domo did not want to talk about the levels of damage or other sources of similar damage, but merely to proselytize (in my opinion) I left. I still think it would be fascinating to noodle over. It's possible that more damage is being done as a result of leaving comics in a hot car than pressing.

 

I think we can all agree that the level of damage being done [with proper pressing] are minimal / barely measurable. That said, it doesn't completely discount the statement made by the LOC and it makes interesting fodder for debate.

 

Just how much degradation is acceptable? For someone pressing a book to keep, probably not much. Someone pressing a flip would likely accept a lot more degradation. So would a study that showed 90% reduction in lifespan stop a flipper from pressing? Probably not. So maybe it's all a moot point anyway. No findings -- no matter how well documented and grim -- would stop certain parties from pressing.

 

I'm not a rabid anti-presser. But when books are refurbished and show up in new slabs with bigger numbers and history is lost, it bothers me. And it's disconcerting when some try to stifle the conversation by discrediting, dissembling and diversion. There's a lot of that here.

 

 

[Domo Arigato]

Read through this thread. There are several people in here who have made that very claim. I'm not your researcher. I'm also not lumping the two groups together. And I didn't take up my argument with Jeff and George. They have taken it up with me and are free to walk away from it at any time if they so desire.

I'm not going to do any research on who these people are because it's not my fight. And for that matter I certainly don't see them chiming in right now, whoever they are. So I would say you are lashing out at the wrong people. If you know who those people are, feel free to quote them and engage them directly. Why don't you do that? Why don't you name names? Because you CAN'T? Oh wait, are you waiting for me to engage them and fight your fight for you?

 

You keep asking Jeff why he thinks its ok for those mystery people to "lie" when he hasn't said anything like that. You sir, are a liar unless you can show me where Jeff said it's ok for pressers to lie that no damage is being done.

 

I am curious to know who these people are that are so positive that there is no damage being done. I would look at it as a personal favor if you would name names, since you know who they are. I'm with you in principle, that these people should prove their claims. So can you please tell me who they are and I will be more than happy to question them...........since somebody apparently has to fight your battles for you.

I'm not lashing out at the wrong people. I responding to those who feel the need to lash out at me. And Jeff didn't say those words, he inferred it. I'm just asking him why. And to get the names you desire, simply go back and read this thread. The information you desire is right there...you either don't honestly want it...or are too lazy to get it for yourself.

 

But I'll tell you what...I'll give you the first name (Dale) of one individual who is "pro-pressing" and has stated that it does no damage. There are others...but that's all you get for free. Maybe now you can put the TV remote down, crawl off the couch, and actually do something for yourself.

 

Here's what Dale said:

 

Personally, if the only change is that the book will last 400 years as opposed to 420 years, I could care less.

 

Clearly, Dale falls into the "there may be damage, but if there is it's so ridiculously benign that there's no use worrying about it" crowd. He does not claim that absolutely no damage is done.

 

If you are going to quote me, don't pull stuff out of context or don't ignore other posts that I have made if one is incomplete.

 

I acknowledge that proper pressing probably ever so slightly reduces the lifespan of a comic book. But I am talking a miniscule, tiny amount. I would estimate from the books which I have seen which have been pressed(probably more than 95% of the people on the boards), comics show ZERO immediate damage from proper pressing. From books that I have seen that were pressed 15 - 20 years ago, I have seen no perceptible change in the page quality/cover quality. From my perspective, proper pressing does no perceptible damage over an extended time period.

 

Proper pressing can however improve a comic and by doing so, PREVENT damage. A bend in a comic WILL become a crease if not handled extraordinarily carefully. A spine roll can damage the integrity of the paper around the staples if not corrected. A spine stress will continue to get deeper if not pressed out and dirt will accumulate in the stress lines. A corner which is bent over will absorb more wear and either become a crease, become fuzzy, lose its sharpness, or be torn off. Pressing to some extent can keep these things from occuring.

So aside from improving the eye appeal of the book and raising the technical grade of the book, it can actually stop the book from further damage.

 

I don't think I have ever said that pressing does zero damage, but you can quote me as saying that the amount of damage is infinitesimally small and given proper archival storage, a pressed comic should last basically the same length of time as an unpressed one.

That's your stance now. But earlier you clearly stated..."you can tell by the look of the book that no damage is being done on a current level. In fact, damage is being removed. My evidence is that I can turn a 9.2 book into a 9.8 book. That is damage removed, not created."

 

The fact that you are slowly starting to come around is a positive thing....however, I stand behind my statements of your earlier claims that pressing does no damage.

 

[Domo Arigato]

About the Project Search Trails Ann Gorman Condon Resources

Winslow Papers >> About the Project >> Conserving the Winslow Papers

 

About the Project

What's New

Biography of Edward Winslow Junior

The Winslow Papers at UNB

Conserving the Winslow Papers

Technical Considerations

Acknowledgements

Contact Us

Conserving the Winslow Papers

The Winslow Papers consists of approximately 2500 individual letters dating primarily within the years 1776 to 1826.1 Organized into 17 volumes, this collection is presently owned and housed by the University of New Brunswick Archives. The Winslow Papers are considered one of the most important compilations of Loyalist documents, and are recognized internationally for their historical value.

 

The collection has been actively researched in the years it has been available for public use. The UNB Archives has added their collection mark to each sheet, and organized the holdings by hinging them into book format using various tabs and adhesives. Evidence of handling over time includes pencil and ink notations, ingrained grime, stains, tears and losses. In addition, the paper has been damaged by insects, mould, acid degradation, and other natural or man-made agents of deterioration. As a result, most of the documents became fragile and difficult to use safely, despite the good intentions of custodians who attempted to mend many sheets with tape. In most instances earlier corrective measures were more injurious and irreversible than was suspected at the time! The Winslow Papers required stabilization against further deterioration, and protection against improper physical handling to ensure their preservation and continued usefulness.

 

 

Document 1 pre-conservation Through a generous bequest from Kenelm Molson Winslow, treatment of this important collection became possible. Conservator, Harold Holland, surveyed the volumes and developed a program for their care in the Paper Conservation Laboratory at the Provincial Archives of New Brunswick. The first step in the process was written and photographic documentation of the physical condition of the collection as received by his department. A range of samples representative of the collection was then brought to the Canadian Conservation Institute for in-depth scientific examination of the various inks, stains, paper fibers, sizings, additives and adhesives present.2 Based on their findings and recommendations, procedures were developed which would effectively and safely preserve both their original integrity and the information held therein. With a budget and a keen sense of productivity, equipment was purchased and staffing organized in order to realize efficient treatment of this relatively large, and completely unique, collection of historical documents. To date, two conservators and perhaps a dozen full or part time technicians have been working to fulfill the conditions of the bequest.

 

Treatment began with collation and removal of the individual letters from the binding format. Very small graphite numbers written on the lower edge of some sheets will facilitate reassembly into their proper order at the completion of the project. Graphite, or pencil, is permanent media (meaning it does not fade or decompose with time), yet is easily removable if required. It is interesting to consider how all notations made on these documents are, or become, an integral part of their history, so no effort is made to remove or obscure evidence of use. However, some past researchers chose to use water-soluble media for their inscriptions. These inks (mostly red!) were reduced using alcohol and water over a small suction device to pull out the component which would otherwise bleed into the paper during washing procedures.

 

 

Document 1 post-conservation The removal of pressure sensitive tape and tabs, and the reduction of adhesive residues, are perhaps the most painstaking steps in the conservation of any paper document. Testing is required to determine the most effective solvents and tactics, and the procedure demands the skilled hands and eyes of a trained conservation scientist. Pressure sensitive adhesives are the trial of every conservator, as they are often very difficult to remove satisfactorily. If these materials are not removed, they will continue to sink into the paper fibers, oxidizing to a point where staining, brittleness, and residues will cause irreversible chemical and physical degradation. Removal of the carriers (as opposed to the adhesive mass) also guarantees dimensional predictivity during wetting out and drying, and allows for proper alignment and planar correction during repair.

 

Once all of the water-sensitive media is stabilized, and tape and tabs removed, each document which is otherwise stable in water is washed with deionized water. Many hours of research were necessary to determine the optimum time and conditions for washing, based on removal of acidity from the paper substrate.3 Washing is accomplished by fully immersing the documents, supported by a spun-bonded polyester web, in a tray of pure water. Those letters with sensitive wax seals, or which are severely brittle or fragile, are washed on a cold suction table or suspended on a piece of acid-free blotter using a "float" technique so as not to effect the sensitive materials or media. Washing removes water-soluble acidic impurities, reduces yellow discolouration and soiling, and generally improves the colour and crispness of a paper sheet. Much damage can occur if washing is carelessly tended. Many inks can subtly change colour, fragments can be lost, and seals or inscriptions and main media altered during treatment. Careful testing before wetting out and diligence during operations is the only way to ensure the safety of individual papers during this stage of the processing.

 

 

Document 2 pre-conservation After washing and air drying, the documents are then neutralized to reduce or remove any remaining acidic impurities. Neutralization is carried out in the same way as the washing, using a 20 ppm solution of calcium carbonate in deionized water. Optimum concentrations and conditions were determined again based on the CCI recommendations and on testing done by conservators at the Provincial Archives. The documents are then inspected for changes in condition, media, or support, and sorted for finishing treatment.

 

The last phase of conservation treatment is mending or leaf casting, followed by slight pressing to return the documents to plane. Mending with wheat starch paste and long-fibered Japanese tissues is performed on those documents with wax seals, or whose media is especially sensitive. Many papers remain very fragile after washing and must be repaired this way to minimize the chances of further damage or loss. The bulk of the collection, however, will enjoy the benefits of state of the art methodology, made possible by Mr. Winslow's donation to this project. Leaf casting is essentially the precise matching of paper pulps in colour, thickness, and makeup, to the original, to fill losses and repair splits and tears. The amount of pulp required for a single casting is determined using an electronic digitizer and computer system. The pulp is added to a vacuum tank with the document to be treated, and the pulp is drawn only to those areas of loss or thinning. The result is an almost perfect match in record time, a real bonus when dealing with mass treatments! Whatever the method of repair, each document is reinforced, providing both strength and a degree of aesthetic improvement overall.

 

 

Document 2 post-conservation The completed documents will be placed within Mylar sleeves. "Mylar" is a clear plastic used in conservation for encapsulation because of its proven stability in use with archival materials. It will provide a secondary support for the pages and allow them to be read and studied without handling or damaging the paper itself. The documents will be put back in their original order and placed within post-bindings before being returned to the UNB Archives.

 

The process is sometimes very slow, and is often tedious, yet the commitment to high standards and quality control is paramount for the protection of these works during conservation treatment. Every effort is made to maintain these standards for the continued and safe accessibility of The Winslow Papers to historical researchers in the years to come.

 

Harold Holland

Provincial Archives of New Brunswick

 

References

1. Raymond, William Odber, ed. Winslow Papers. New Brunswick: Sun Printing Company, Ltd., for the N.B. Historical Society in 1901. Boston: Gregg Press, 1972. Back

 

2. Moffatt, E. and Corbeil, M. "The Winslow Papers." Ottawa: CCI Analytical Report ARS 2831, 1990. Back

 

3. Brown, Karen E.K. "Edward Winslow Papers: Washing and Neutralization Duration Testing." Unpublished report, September 1990. Back

 

 

 

 

http://lib.unb.ca/winslow/conservation.html

 

Would these papers dating hundreds of years old be slightly pressed if it was damaging? Beats me

 

discuss

 

They must not have got the email from the LOC. I mean, how can you not take that email as gospel? 'Trooper, do you believe that the email from the LOC is infallible and can save your soul? If not, I've got some pamphlets I'd like to share with you.

The Library of Congress admits that they will perform tasks on a case by case basis that might be slightly damaging to an article. They do this only after carefully considering the benefits gained verses the harm caused. If a paper has been rolled up in a tube for 200 years, they may consider using humidification on it to help flatten it out for study. Knowing full well this can cause slight damage to it, but also knowing that it's the only way to be able to study the document without risking even greater damage to it. Pressing a comic book from a 9.6 to a 9.8 only benifits the pressers wallet.

[Domo Arigato]

Incidentally, most drug litigation cases are failure to warn (and a subset of failure to test, in some jurisdictions, that's a separate cause of action) -- thus a manufacturer has put a drug on the market, promoted it for benefits, but not tested or warned of a potential significant harm (for HRT, breast cancer, Paxil, heart malformations and death in infants, so on and so forth).

 

In the pressing analogy, it'd be, someone knew or should have known that pressing was harmful to the books but failed to warn of the harm. Here, the key would be finding who owed a duty to the customer buying a book and should they have known that pressing was harmful.

But in this case, many pressers are making a specific claim. Not failing to warn. They are actually claiming that pressing does no harm to a book with no evidence to back this claim up.

 

If the notion of a pressed book causes you so much grief, don't buy any more books. Then, I can guarantee you that you will not have to deal with pressed books. Sounds like paradise, doesn't it? You can instead collect...ceramic shoes...or barbed wire. Your blood pressure gets so high that from my central Florida residence, I can hear the steam whistling from your ears.

Thanks for providing more of your nonsense recommendations. A better idea would just be for all of those pressing books to be honest and forthcoming with the information about it and it's effects on the books.

 

Those that are pressing books don't care what you think.

 

This is the reaction that much of the community has to your complaints: "Hahaha, look at that blowhard ranting on and on about something. Let me go put another book in the press before the football game starts". And the more complaints and steam that comes from your ears, the more ironic and funny the thread becomes. For every additional comment that you post, with the intention of changing the "pressing status quo", is an additional post that exponentially increases the "funny level" or "Benny Hill quotient" of the thread.

Thanks again for your valuable contributions to the discussion. Here's a wooden nickel...keep the change.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

 

To me, this is the most head-scratching aspect of the debate...

 

Some feel the the LOC statement is not to be taken seriously and does not provide adequate detail.

 

Yet, the opposing view has absolutely no evidence or independent expert opinion to support their belief.

 

Domo comes to the table with **something** and the other side has nothing other than personal opinion. Who has more credibility?

 

 

Hey Zip,

 

...

 

After it became clear (to me) that Domo did not want to talk about the levels of damage or other sources of similar damage, but merely to proselytize (in my opinion) I left. I still think it would be fascinating to noodle over. It's possible that more damage is being done as a result of leaving comics in a hot car than pressing.

 

I think we can all agree that the level of damage being done [with proper pressing] are minimal / barely measurable. That said, it doesn't completely discount the statement made by the LOC and it makes interesting fodder for debate.

 

Just how much degradation is acceptable? For someone pressing a book to keep, probably not much. Someone pressing a flip would likely accept a lot more degradation. So would a study that showed 90% reduction in lifespan stop a flipper from pressing? Probably not. So maybe it's all a moot point anyway. No findings -- no matter how well documented and grim -- would stop certain parties from pressing.

 

I'm not a rabid anti-presser. But when books are refurbished and show up in new slabs with bigger numbers and history is lost, it bothers me. And it's disconcerting when some try to stifle the conversation by discrediting, dissembling and diversion. There's a lot of that here.

 

 

The more I foolishly get involved in a thread like this, the more I realize Steve Borock is a genius.

 

"Assume every book was pressed", was not a poke in the eye to those people in the anti-press camp, it was, in fact the most substantive piece of Disclosure ever offered. The more this "debate" goes on, the more truth that statement holds.

 

As for who has "won" this time, I think the answer is simple: no one.

 

Because if you have to worry about every book in your collection, or any book you might pick up in the future as being possibly tainted by a process you don't care for, then you've lost. You might still fight the good fight, but forget it, its over. And if I keep seeing good people who really love this hobby turn away from it because of their disillusionment, then the hobby as a whole, has lost.

 

[Domo Arigato]

Domo comes to the table with **something**

Obviously more than a few feel that is debatable.

What's not debatable it that the other side is coming to the table with nothing.

 

Do you have me on ignore?

YES!

[Domo Arigato]

Domo comes to the table with **something**

Obviously more than a few feel that is debatable.

What's not debatable it that the other side is coming to the table with nothing.

 

2 posts in a row with the old, "nuh-uh, you are". You been eating genius sandwiches?

Yes. And I've obviously been stealing them out of your lunch box.

[buttock]

Domo comes to the table with **something**

Obviously more than a few feel that is debatable.

What's not debatable it that the other side is coming to the table with nothing.

 

2 posts in a row with the old, "nuh-uh, you are". You been eating genius sandwiches?

Yes. And I've obviously been stealing them out of your lunch box.

 

4!!! He's on a roll!

[Dale Roberts]

Read through this thread. There are several people in here who have made that very claim. I'm not your researcher. I'm also not lumping the two groups together. And I didn't take up my argument with Jeff and George. They have taken it up with me and are free to walk away from it at any time if they so desire.

I'm not going to do any research on who these people are because it's not my fight. And for that matter I certainly don't see them chiming in right now, whoever they are. So I would say you are lashing out at the wrong people. If you know who those people are, feel free to quote them and engage them directly. Why don't you do that? Why don't you name names? Because you CAN'T? Oh wait, are you waiting for me to engage them and fight your fight for you?

 

You keep asking Jeff why he thinks its ok for those mystery people to "lie" when he hasn't said anything like that. You sir, are a liar unless you can show me where Jeff said it's ok for pressers to lie that no damage is being done.

 

I am curious to know who these people are that are so positive that there is no damage being done. I would look at it as a personal favor if you would name names, since you know who they are. I'm with you in principle, that these people should prove their claims. So can you please tell me who they are and I will be more than happy to question them...........since somebody apparently has to fight your battles for you.

I'm not lashing out at the wrong people. I responding to those who feel the need to lash out at me. And Jeff didn't say those words, he inferred it. I'm just asking him why. And to get the names you desire, simply go back and read this thread. The information you desire is right there...you either don't honestly want it...or are too lazy to get it for yourself.

 

But I'll tell you what...I'll give you the first name (Dale) of one individual who is "pro-pressing" and has stated that it does no damage. There are others...but that's all you get for free. Maybe now you can put the TV remote down, crawl off the couch, and actually do something for yourself.

 

Here's what Dale said:

 

Personally, if the only change is that the book will last 400 years as opposed to 420 years, I could care less.

 

Clearly, Dale falls into the "there may be damage, but if there is it's so ridiculously benign that there's no use worrying about it" crowd. He does not claim that absolutely no damage is done.

 

If you are going to quote me, don't pull stuff out of context or don't ignore other posts that I have made if one is incomplete.

 

I acknowledge that proper pressing probably ever so slightly reduces the lifespan of a comic book. But I am talking a miniscule, tiny amount. I would estimate from the books which I have seen which have been pressed(probably more than 95% of the people on the boards), comics show ZERO immediate damage from proper pressing. From books that I have seen that were pressed 15 - 20 years ago, I have seen no perceptible change in the page quality/cover quality. From my perspective, proper pressing does no perceptible damage over an extended time period.

 

Proper pressing can however improve a comic and by doing so, PREVENT damage. A bend in a comic WILL become a crease if not handled extraordinarily carefully. A spine roll can damage the integrity of the paper around the staples if not corrected. A spine stress will continue to get deeper if not pressed out and dirt will accumulate in the stress lines. A corner which is bent over will absorb more wear and either become a crease, become fuzzy, lose its sharpness, or be torn off. Pressing to some extent can keep these things from occuring.

So aside from improving the eye appeal of the book and raising the technical grade of the book, it can actually stop the book from further damage.

 

I don't think I have ever said that pressing does zero damage, but you can quote me as saying that the amount of damage is infinitesimally small and given proper archival storage, a pressed comic should last basically the same length of time as an unpressed one.

That's your stance now. But earlier you clearly stated..."you can tell by the look of the book that no damage is being done on a current level. In fact, damage is being removed. My evidence is that I can turn a 9.2 book into a 9.8 book. That is damage removed, not created."

 

The fact that you are slowly starting to come around is a positive thing....however, I stand behind my statements of your earlier claims that pressing does no damage.

 

Please have the backbone to make your own claims and stop trying to speak for others and tell others what they think.

 

 

[Domo Arigato]

Domo comes to the table with **something**

Obviously more than a few feel that is debatable.

What's not debatable it that the other side is coming to the table with nothing.

 

2 posts in a row with the old, "nuh-uh, you are". You been eating genius sandwiches?

Yes. And I've obviously been stealing them out of your lunch box.

 

4!!! He's on a roll!

I haven't touched any of your rolls.

[Domo Arigato]

Read through this thread. There are several people in here who have made that very claim. I'm not your researcher. I'm also not lumping the two groups together. And I didn't take up my argument with Jeff and George. They have taken it up with me and are free to walk away from it at any time if they so desire.

I'm not going to do any research on who these people are because it's not my fight. And for that matter I certainly don't see them chiming in right now, whoever they are. So I would say you are lashing out at the wrong people. If you know who those people are, feel free to quote them and engage them directly. Why don't you do that? Why don't you name names? Because you CAN'T? Oh wait, are you waiting for me to engage them and fight your fight for you?

 

You keep asking Jeff why he thinks its ok for those mystery people to "lie" when he hasn't said anything like that. You sir, are a liar unless you can show me where Jeff said it's ok for pressers to lie that no damage is being done.

 

I am curious to know who these people are that are so positive that there is no damage being done. I would look at it as a personal favor if you would name names, since you know who they are. I'm with you in principle, that these people should prove their claims. So can you please tell me who they are and I will be more than happy to question them...........since somebody apparently has to fight your battles for you.

I'm not lashing out at the wrong people. I responding to those who feel the need to lash out at me. And Jeff didn't say those words, he inferred it. I'm just asking him why. And to get the names you desire, simply go back and read this thread. The information you desire is right there...you either don't honestly want it...or are too lazy to get it for yourself.

 

But I'll tell you what...I'll give you the first name (Dale) of one individual who is "pro-pressing" and has stated that it does no damage. There are others...but that's all you get for free. Maybe now you can put the TV remote down, crawl off the couch, and actually do something for yourself.

 

Here's what Dale said:

 

Personally, if the only change is that the book will last 400 years as opposed to 420 years, I could care less.

 

Clearly, Dale falls into the "there may be damage, but if there is it's so ridiculously benign that there's no use worrying about it" crowd. He does not claim that absolutely no damage is done.

 

If you are going to quote me, don't pull stuff out of context or don't ignore other posts that I have made if one is incomplete.

 

I acknowledge that proper pressing probably ever so slightly reduces the lifespan of a comic book. But I am talking a miniscule, tiny amount. I would estimate from the books which I have seen which have been pressed(probably more than 95% of the people on the boards), comics show ZERO immediate damage from proper pressing. From books that I have seen that were pressed 15 - 20 years ago, I have seen no perceptible change in the page quality/cover quality. From my perspective, proper pressing does no perceptible damage over an extended time period.

 

Proper pressing can however improve a comic and by doing so, PREVENT damage. A bend in a comic WILL become a crease if not handled extraordinarily carefully. A spine roll can damage the integrity of the paper around the staples if not corrected. A spine stress will continue to get deeper if not pressed out and dirt will accumulate in the stress lines. A corner which is bent over will absorb more wear and either become a crease, become fuzzy, lose its sharpness, or be torn off. Pressing to some extent can keep these things from occuring.

So aside from improving the eye appeal of the book and raising the technical grade of the book, it can actually stop the book from further damage.

 

I don't think I have ever said that pressing does zero damage, but you can quote me as saying that the amount of damage is infinitesimally small and given proper archival storage, a pressed comic should last basically the same length of time as an unpressed one.

That's your stance now. But earlier you clearly stated..."you can tell by the look of the book that no damage is being done on a current level. In fact, damage is being removed. My evidence is that I can turn a 9.2 book into a 9.8 book. That is damage removed, not created."

 

The fact that you are slowly starting to come around is a positive thing....however, I stand behind my statements of your earlier claims that pressing does no damage.

And I stand by my earlier statement that you are a complete fool.

You don't appear to know what you're talking about when it comes to pressing. Why should any of your other opinions be any different?

[THE_BEYONDER]

At its root, I think the divide between the pressing and anti-pressing crowd comes down to those who wish to "hunt" in the traditional sense for their collections, and those enterprising individuals who are looking to add to their collections or their overall wealth, by filling the demand for ultra high grade slabs. A common theme among anti-pressers is the idea of "virginal" books, untouched and "unmanipulated", being the only kinds of books they want to collect, with "potentialized" books being almost a perversion of sorts. In a sense, they're correct. If the thrill is in the hunt, a 9.6 is much more desireable than a 9.0 because the chances that a book rolling off the press as a 9.6 would survive the ravages of time without sustaining any damage, are quite remote. That's precisely why a premium is attached to uber high grade books. But when you take a 9.0 or 9.2 and turn it into a 9.4 or 9.6, the incentive to pay those multiples, LOGICALLY speaking, should disappear. And for the anti-pressers, guys like Tim, Nick or Chris, they have.

 

In that sense pressing defeats, or at least seriously undermines, the purpose of collecting high grade books. With pressing being a known quantity, the price disparities between grades should be narrowing, but they haven't as of yet because people are actually collecting the grades assigned by CGC, and not the books themselves. The hunt to find the perfect specimen of a book has evolved into the hunt to find a CGC 9.X with Y pages. Once a book achieves that grade and is encapsulated as such, it becomes that grade. By pressing a 9.2 to a 9.6, a book's history becomes irrelevant; in the eyes of CGC and the market, a nicely preserved but flawed 9.0-9.2 becomes the equal of a virginal 9.6, thereby defeating the purpose of attaching a premium to it in the first place.

[Silver Surfer]

 

To me, this is the most head-scratching aspect of the debate...

 

Some feel the the LOC statement is not to be taken seriously and does not provide adequate detail.

 

Yet, the opposing view has absolutely no evidence or independent expert opinion to support their belief.

 

Domo comes to the table with **something** and the other side has nothing other than personal opinion. Who has more credibility?

 

 

Hey Zip,

 

...

 

After it became clear (to me) that Domo did not want to talk about the levels of damage or other sources of similar damage, but merely to proselytize (in my opinion) I left. I still think it would be fascinating to noodle over. It's possible that more damage is being done as a result of leaving comics in a hot car than pressing.

 

I think we can all agree that the level of damage being done [with proper pressing] are minimal / barely measurable. That said, it doesn't completely discount the statement made by the LOC and it makes interesting fodder for debate.

 

Just how much degradation is acceptable? For someone pressing a book to keep, probably not much. Someone pressing a flip would likely accept a lot more degradation. So would a study that showed 90% reduction in lifespan stop a flipper from pressing? Probably not. So maybe it's all a moot point anyway. No findings -- no matter how well documented and grim -- would stop certain parties from pressing.

 

I'm not a rabid anti-presser. But when books are refurbished and show up in new slabs with bigger numbers and history is lost, it bothers me. And it's disconcerting when some try to stifle the conversation by discrediting, dissembling and diversion. There's a lot of that here.

 

 

The more I foolishly get involved in a thread like this, the more I realize Steve Borock is a genius.

 

"Assume every book was pressed", was not a poke in the eye to those people in the anti-press camp, it was, in fact the most substantive piece of Disclosure ever offered. The more this "debate" goes on, the more truth that statement holds.

 

As for who has "won" this time, I think the answer is simple: no one.

 

Because if you have to worry about every book in your collection, or any book you might pick up in the future as being possibly tainted by a process you don't care for, then you've lost. You might still fight the good fight, but forget it, its over. And if I keep seeing good people who really love this hobby turn away from it because of their disillusionment, then the hobby as a whole, has lost.

 

Yeah George but that was more of a cop out or an excuse for not bothering to disclose. Kind like me saying "assume you going to get screwed" when working with dealers.

[Mr. Zipper]

Because if you have to worry about every book in your collection, or any book you might pick up in the future as being possibly tainted by a process you don't care for, then you've lost. You might still fight the good fight, but forget it, its over. And if I keep seeing good people who really love this hobby turn away from it because of their disillusionment, then the hobby as a whole, has lost.

 

Some folks have turned away from the hobby in disillusionment, but hopefully it's a relatively small number.

 

Like Monkeyman posted very early in this thread, my reaction to more widespread pressing has been that "grade" does not matter as much. I'm a lot more skeptical of high grade and it rarely impresses me anymore. If I can get a beautifully centered book with good gloss and nice paper, who cares if it's an 9.0 instead of a 9.4? The 9.4 may have been a 9.0 yesterday anyway.

 

It's actually been liberating.

[mschmidt]

Read through this thread. There are several people in here who have made that very claim. I'm not your researcher. I'm also not lumping the two groups together. And I didn't take up my argument with Jeff and George. They have taken it up with me and are free to walk away from it at any time if they so desire.

I'm not going to do any research on who these people are because it's not my fight. And for that matter I certainly don't see them chiming in right now, whoever they are. So I would say you are lashing out at the wrong people. If you know who those people are, feel free to quote them and engage them directly. Why don't you do that? Why don't you name names? Because you CAN'T? Oh wait, are you waiting for me to engage them and fight your fight for you?

 

You keep asking Jeff why he thinks its ok for those mystery people to "lie" when he hasn't said anything like that. You sir, are a liar unless you can show me where Jeff said it's ok for pressers to lie that no damage is being done.

 

I am curious to know who these people are that are so positive that there is no damage being done. I would look at it as a personal favor if you would name names, since you know who they are. I'm with you in principle, that these people should prove their claims. So can you please tell me who they are and I will be more than happy to question them...........since somebody apparently has to fight your battles for you.

I'm not lashing out at the wrong people. I responding to those who feel the need to lash out at me. And Jeff didn't say those words, he inferred it. I'm just asking him why. And to get the names you desire, simply go back and read this thread. The information you desire is right there...you either don't honestly want it...or are too lazy to get it for yourself.

 

But I'll tell you what...I'll give you the first name (Dale) of one individual who is "pro-pressing" and has stated that it does no damage. There are others...but that's all you get for free. Maybe now you can put the TV remote down, crawl off the couch, and actually do something for yourself.

 

Here's what Dale said:

 

Personally, if the only change is that the book will last 400 years as opposed to 420 years, I could care less.

 

Clearly, Dale falls into the "there may be damage, but if there is it's so ridiculously benign that there's no use worrying about it" crowd. He does not claim that absolutely no damage is done.

 

If you are going to quote me, don't pull stuff out of context or don't ignore other posts that I have made if one is incomplete.

 

I acknowledge that proper pressing probably ever so slightly reduces the lifespan of a comic book. But I am talking a miniscule, tiny amount. I would estimate from the books which I have seen which have been pressed(probably more than 95% of the people on the boards), comics show ZERO immediate damage from proper pressing. From books that I have seen that were pressed 15 - 20 years ago, I have seen no perceptible change in the page quality/cover quality. From my perspective, proper pressing does no perceptible damage over an extended time period.

 

Proper pressing can however improve a comic and by doing so, PREVENT damage. A bend in a comic WILL become a crease if not handled extraordinarily carefully. A spine roll can damage the integrity of the paper around the staples if not corrected. A spine stress will continue to get deeper if not pressed out and dirt will accumulate in the stress lines. A corner which is bent over will absorb more wear and either become a crease, become fuzzy, lose its sharpness, or be torn off. Pressing to some extent can keep these things from occuring.

So aside from improving the eye appeal of the book and raising the technical grade of the book, it can actually stop the book from further damage.

 

I don't think I have ever said that pressing does zero damage, but you can quote me as saying that the amount of damage is infinitesimally small and given proper archival storage, a pressed comic should last basically the same length of time as an unpressed one.

That's your stance now. But earlier you clearly stated..."you can tell by the look of the book that no damage is being done on a current level. In fact, damage is being removed. My evidence is that I can turn a 9.2 book into a 9.8 book. That is damage removed, not created."

 

The fact that you are slowly starting to come around is a positive thing....however, I stand behind my statements of your earlier claims that pressing does no damage.

 

Can't believe you've resorted to making up quotes & putting words in other peoples' mouths to try to back up your asinine assumptions - that is truly pathethic.

[Domo Arigato]

Read through this thread. There are several people in here who have made that very claim. I'm not your researcher. I'm also not lumping the two groups together. And I didn't take up my argument with Jeff and George. They have taken it up with me and are free to walk away from it at any time if they so desire.

I'm not going to do any research on who these people are because it's not my fight. And for that matter I certainly don't see them chiming in right now, whoever they are. So I would say you are lashing out at the wrong people. If you know who those people are, feel free to quote them and engage them directly. Why don't you do that? Why don't you name names? Because you CAN'T? Oh wait, are you waiting for me to engage them and fight your fight for you?

 

You keep asking Jeff why he thinks its ok for those mystery people to "lie" when he hasn't said anything like that. You sir, are a liar unless you can show me where Jeff said it's ok for pressers to lie that no damage is being done.

 

I am curious to know who these people are that are so positive that there is no damage being done. I would look at it as a personal favor if you would name names, since you know who they are. I'm with you in principle, that these people should prove their claims. So can you please tell me who they are and I will be more than happy to question them...........since somebody apparently has to fight your battles for you.

I'm not lashing out at the wrong people. I responding to those who feel the need to lash out at me. And Jeff didn't say those words, he inferred it. I'm just asking him why. And to get the names you desire, simply go back and read this thread. The information you desire is right there...you either don't honestly want it...or are too lazy to get it for yourself.

 

But I'll tell you what...I'll give you the first name (Dale) of one individual who is "pro-pressing" and has stated that it does no damage. There are others...but that's all you get for free. Maybe now you can put the TV remote down, crawl off the couch, and actually do something for yourself.

 

Here's what Dale said:

 

Personally, if the only change is that the book will last 400 years as opposed to 420 years, I could care less.

 

Clearly, Dale falls into the "there may be damage, but if there is it's so ridiculously benign that there's no use worrying about it" crowd. He does not claim that absolutely no damage is done.

 

If you are going to quote me, don't pull stuff out of context or don't ignore other posts that I have made if one is incomplete.

 

I acknowledge that proper pressing probably ever so slightly reduces the lifespan of a comic book. But I am talking a miniscule, tiny amount. I would estimate from the books which I have seen which have been pressed(probably more than 95% of the people on the boards), comics show ZERO immediate damage from proper pressing. From books that I have seen that were pressed 15 - 20 years ago, I have seen no perceptible change in the page quality/cover quality. From my perspective, proper pressing does no perceptible damage over an extended time period.

 

Proper pressing can however improve a comic and by doing so, PREVENT damage. A bend in a comic WILL become a crease if not handled extraordinarily carefully. A spine roll can damage the integrity of the paper around the staples if not corrected. A spine stress will continue to get deeper if not pressed out and dirt will accumulate in the stress lines. A corner which is bent over will absorb more wear and either become a crease, become fuzzy, lose its sharpness, or be torn off. Pressing to some extent can keep these things from occuring.

So aside from improving the eye appeal of the book and raising the technical grade of the book, it can actually stop the book from further damage.

 

I don't think I have ever said that pressing does zero damage, but you can quote me as saying that the amount of damage is infinitesimally small and given proper archival storage, a pressed comic should last basically the same length of time as an unpressed one.

That's your stance now. But earlier you clearly stated..."you can tell by the look of the book that no damage is being done on a current level. In fact, damage is being removed. My evidence is that I can turn a 9.2 book into a 9.8 book. That is damage removed, not created."

 

The fact that you are slowly starting to come around is a positive thing....however, I stand behind my statements of your earlier claims that pressing does no damage.

 

Can't believe you've resorted to making up quotes & putting words in other peoples' mouths to try to back up your asinine assumptions - that is truly pathethic.

I didn't make up anything. I quoted him directly and then simply restated what he said. Stop lying and acting like such a child with your nonsense accusations.

[hockey&comicsguy]

That's your stance now. But earlier you clearly stated..."you can tell by the look of the book that no damage is being done on a current level. In fact, damage is being removed. My evidence is that I can turn a 9.2 book into a 9.8 book. That is damage removed, not created."

 

 

You don't appear to know what you're talking about when it comes to pressing. Why should any of your other opinions be any different?

 

 

 

He's made it clear that the possibility that pressing might have an adverse effect on a comic exists. And I repeat, POSSIBILITY.

 

I find it pretty arrogant for you to think you know more about what he was trying to say than he does. And it's even more absurd that you think he's "coming around" and that you had anything to do with it.

 

It's quite possible that Dale's position this entire time is that the possibility that pressing is harmful may indeed be true. However, you selectively took what you wanted and made it appear as if he said the very words "there is zero chance pressing harms a comic". He has never said that, nor has anyone else.

 

The fact that you infer or assume or f-ing conjure up whatever you want in that brain of yours is a you problem.

 

He's clarified his position. So you need to move on.

 

 

[kc120us]

You have claimed over & over again that "numerous" pro-pressers have repeatedly stated in this thread that pressing does absolutely no harm to comic books, so why is it so hard for you to come up with just one example of anyone saying this?

Don't like the first on. Ok. As conditionfreak already mentioned in one of his posts above...here's another quote Dale made regarding pressing earlier in this thread.

 

"Well, you can tell by the look of the book that no damage is being done on a current level. In fact, damage is being removed. My evidence is that I can turn a 9.2 book into a 9.8 book. That is damage removed, not created."

 

Sure seems like he's saying do damage is occuring during the pressing process.

 

I think what Dale is saying is that there is no visible damage. Obviously, a poor press job will leave visible damage as has been seen here just as poor storage will leave visible damage.

He states very clearly that they are removing damage...not creating any.

 

No. He says "You can tell by the look of the book" This means by what you see. With a proper pressing, there is no visible damage. "In fact, damage is being removed", in this he is refering to damage such as bends that were present prior to the pressing and are now no longer visible. Now, as for invisible, microscopic damage, he didn't dispute that possiblity.

 

Dale, If I'm mistaken please correct me.

[Domo Arigato]

That's your stance now. But earlier you clearly stated..."you can tell by the look of the book that no damage is being done on a current level. In fact, damage is being removed. My evidence is that I can turn a 9.2 book into a 9.8 book. That is damage removed, not created."

 

You don't appear to know what you're talking about when it comes to pressing. Why should any of your other opinions be any different?

He's made it clear that the possibility that pressing might have an adverse effect on a comic exists. And I repeat, POSSIBILITY.

 

I find it pretty arrogant for you to think you know more about what he was trying to say than he does. And it's even more absurd that you think he's "coming around" and that you had anything to do with it.

 

It's quite possible that Dale's position this entire time is that the possibility that pressing is harmful may indeed be true. However, you selectively took what you wanted and made it appear as if he said the very words "there is zero chance pressing harms a comic". He has never said that, nor has anyone else.

 

The fact that you infer or assume or f-ing conjure up whatever you want in that brain of yours is a you problem.

 

He's clarified his position. So you need to move on.

No. As I stated earlier...he states plainly that no damage is occuring...and even if there was, it would be so small that he wouldn't care about it. This is obvious and there's a distinct difference between that and what you're falsely claiming.

 

He's clarified the position that he currently holds now...that has nothing to do with what his position was earlier that I was originally referring to.

 

Who knows...perhaps even you'll come around one of these days.