Why do Anti-Pressers HATE pressing?

[Flaming_Telepath]

Isn't the first step towards any meaningful discussion on this topic the research and creation of a method to actually detect whether a book has been pressed or not?

 

Without such a method this is somewhat like stating a dislike for the act of storing comic books in purple long boxes - an understandable argument for someone that shares your aesthetics, but an annoyance in all practical cases unless you yourself bought the book off of the rack.

 

I appreciate the passion in this thread, but I just don't get the heat present on both sides for something that is, for all viable purposes, invisible when properly done.

 

Back in 2001 or so, I saw some really high grade early SA for the first time; I was 20, and just getting into collecting vintage books. It was a CGC 9.6 ASM 8 in particular that blew my mind; the colors were insanely vibrant, the corners perfectly sharp, and the spine was flawless. Up until then, I'd mostly been exposed to low and mid-grade books, and I had no idea a 40 year-old book could look that good. The book went up for auction, and sold for what everyone thought at the time was a crazy multiple of guide, but I instantly understood why it sold for that kind of money. Not only did the copy look stunning, but I found it absolutely remarkable that a book could survive 4 decades unscathed when books that were just printed and sold off the stands often didn't even look that good.

 

This, to me, justified the high prices and the massive price disparity from one grade to the next in 9.0+. When I became aware of pressing, all that went out the window. I slowly came to the realization that the justification for high grade prices, the thrill of the hunt associated with finding those untouched gems, and even the significance of pedigree collections, was significantly diminished by the practice of pressing. The fact that it's invisible doesn't make it a non-issue; the undetectable nature of "properly pressed" books is precisely the problem because it undermines and trivializes the entire pursuit of high grade books. A 9.0 pressed into a 9.6 and flipped for profit is not the same thing as a 9.6 that came directly from an original owner or succession of collectors who cared enough to select the best copy they could find and subsequently preserved it in pristine condition. It looks the same, and is labeled the same, but it's not the same.

 

Most of you probably don't share this viewpoint, which is fine, but there's a difference between not understanding something and not agreeing with it. There is also a clear financial incentive involved in NOT sharing this viewpoint, and not differentiating between these two types of 9.6s, regardless of the fact that there is no method of differentiating between a pressed and unpressed book. At this point, even if we could find a process to detect pressing, neither collectors nor CGC have any reason to rock the boat. Again, you don't have to agree with the view that pressing diminishes high grade books and high grade collecting, but the whole "haters gonna hate" argument, is a massive, and quite stupid straw-man. And boiling this down to an aesthetic argument that is irrelevant because you can't physically see the difference doesn't solve the above problem for many of us, hence the "heat" present on the anti-pressing side.

 

Not that hard to understand if you're not being deliberately obtuse.

 

 

Pressing is the number one reason why I gave up collecting.

 

The joy of finding something that had existed for 50+ years in pristine condition was the thrill for me.

 

Finding something that appeared to be in pristine condition, but had been manufactured the previous week...not so much fun.

[SquareChaos]

Isn't the first step towards any meaningful discussion on this topic the research and creation of a method to actually detect whether a book has been pressed or not?

 

Without such a method this is somewhat like stating a dislike for the act of storing comic books in purple long boxes - an understandable argument for someone that shares your aesthetics, but an annoyance in all practical cases unless you yourself bought the book off of the rack.

 

I appreciate the passion in this thread, but I just don't get the heat present on both sides for something that is, for all viable purposes, invisible when properly done.

 

Back in 2001 or so, I saw some really high grade early SA for the first time; I was 20, and just getting into collecting vintage books. It was a CGC 9.6 ASM 8 in particular that blew my mind; the colors were insanely vibrant, the corners perfectly sharp, and the spine was flawless. Up until then, I'd mostly been exposed to low and mid-grade books, and I had no idea a 40 year-old book could look that good. The book went up for auction, and sold for what everyone thought at the time was a crazy multiple of guide, but I instantly understood why it sold for that kind of money. Not only did the copy look stunning, but I found it absolutely remarkable that a book could survive 4 decades unscathed when books that were just printed and sold off the stands often didn't even look that good.

 

This, to me, justified the high prices and the massive price disparity from one grade to the next in 9.0+. When I became aware of pressing, all that went out the window. I slowly came to the realization that the justification for high grade prices, the thrill of the hunt associated with finding those untouched gems, and even the significance of pedigree collections, was significantly diminished by the practice of pressing. The fact that it's invisible doesn't make it a non-issue; the undetectable nature of "properly pressed" books is precisely the problem because it undermines and trivializes the entire pursuit of high grade books. A 9.0 pressed into a 9.6 and flipped for profit is not the same thing as a 9.6 that came directly from an original owner or succession of collectors who cared enough to select the best copy they could find and subsequently preserved it in pristine condition. It looks the same, and is labeled the same, but it's not the same.

 

Most of you probably don't share this viewpoint, which is fine, but there's a difference between not understanding something and not agreeing with it. There is also a clear financial incentive involved in NOT sharing this viewpoint, and not differentiating between these two types of 9.6s, regardless of the fact that there is no method of differentiating between a pressed and unpressed book. At this point, even if we could find a process to detect pressing, neither collectors nor CGC have any reason to rock the boat. Again, you don't have to agree with the view that pressing diminishes high grade books and high grade collecting, but the whole "haters gonna hate" argument, is a massive, and quite stupid straw-man. And boiling this down to an aesthetic argument that is irrelevant because you can't physically see the difference doesn't solve the above problem for many of us, hence the "heat" present on the anti-pressing side.

 

Not that hard to understand if you're not being deliberately obtuse.

 

 

Pressing is the number one reason why I gave up collecting.

 

The joy of finding something that had existed for 50+ years in pristine condition was the thrill for me.

 

Finding something that appeared to be in pristine condition, but had been manufactured the previous week...not so much fun.

 

I respect the thrill of discovery expressed by COI (what collector doesn't know what he's talking about?) but I think the power of pressing is being exaggerated. Far more books remain unpressed than pressed, and this bit here is just gut instinct, but I have to think some high percentage of pressed books, especially high grade SA or older, go directly into a slab.

 

Again, this isn't scientific, but don't you imagine that statistically you're pretty unlikely to stumble across a cache of raw books that were pressed? Or are you worried about buying a book off of another collector that that was pressed to raise the value? If that's the case, this is hardly a situation where you should feel the thrill of discovery.

 

I'm not one that feels the need to tell anyone how to go about living their life, but just trying to look at it from my own perspective, I can't quite get my head into that spot.

[kav]

If I found a pressed AF15 it would be a thrill

[SquareChaos]

[THE_BEYONDER]

Pressing isn't restoration because CGC (and other grading companies) says its not. They are the grading experts as recognized by the hobby and they make the rules. It really is as simple as that.

 

You want pressing to be restoration, convince them otherwise.

 

CGC had no choice but to take the stance that pressing isn't restoration. Otherwise, they wouldn't have been able to 'fix' damage caused by their own friggin holders.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Isn't the first step towards any meaningful discussion on this topic the research and creation of a method to actually detect whether a book has been pressed or not?

 

Without such a method this is somewhat like stating a dislike for the act of storing comic books in purple long boxes - an understandable argument for someone that shares your aesthetics, but an annoyance in all practical cases unless you yourself bought the book off of the rack.

 

I appreciate the passion in this thread, but I just don't get the heat present on both sides for something that is, for all viable purposes, invisible when properly done.

 

Back in 2001 or so, I saw some really high grade early SA for the first time; I was 20, and just getting into collecting vintage books. It was a CGC 9.6 ASM 8 in particular that blew my mind; the colors were insanely vibrant, the corners perfectly sharp, and the spine was flawless. Up until then, I'd mostly been exposed to low and mid-grade books, and I had no idea a 40 year-old book could look that good. The book went up for auction, and sold for what everyone thought at the time was a crazy multiple of guide, but I instantly understood why it sold for that kind of money. Not only did the copy look stunning, but I found it absolutely remarkable that a book could survive 4 decades unscathed when books that were just printed and sold off the stands often didn't even look that good.

 

This, to me, justified the high prices and the massive price disparity from one grade to the next in 9.0+. When I became aware of pressing, all that went out the window. I slowly came to the realization that the justification for high grade prices, the thrill of the hunt associated with finding those untouched gems, and even the significance of pedigree collections, was significantly diminished by the practice of pressing. The fact that it's invisible doesn't make it a non-issue; the undetectable nature of "properly pressed" books is precisely the problem because it undermines and trivializes the entire pursuit of high grade books. A 9.0 pressed into a 9.6 and flipped for profit is not the same thing as a 9.6 that came directly from an original owner or succession of collectors who cared enough to select the best copy they could find and subsequently preserved it in pristine condition. It looks the same, and is labeled the same, but it's not the same.

 

Most of you probably don't share this viewpoint, which is fine, but there's a difference between not understanding something and not agreeing with it. There is also a clear financial incentive involved in NOT sharing this viewpoint, and not differentiating between these two types of 9.6s, regardless of the fact that there is no method of differentiating between a pressed and unpressed book. At this point, even if we could find a process to detect pressing, neither collectors nor CGC have any reason to rock the boat. Again, you don't have to agree with the view that pressing diminishes high grade books and high grade collecting, but the whole "haters gonna hate" argument, is a massive, and quite stupid straw-man. And boiling this down to an aesthetic argument that is irrelevant because you can't physically see the difference doesn't solve the above problem for many of us, hence the "heat" present on the anti-pressing side.

 

Not that hard to understand if you're not being deliberately obtuse.

 

 

To see a book that has survived in superb condition for decades really is a great experience. Really, it's amazing to see an Avengers #7 that looks like the day it was printed. It's really something that every collector should do at one time or another. It's really something quite special.

 

But there's something the "anti-pressing side" really doesn't appreciate, which is the fact that a book has to start out in superb condition, before its ever pressed, to achieve the sort of results you're talking about.

 

Pressing isn't magic. If the underlying book isn't superb to start with, you're not going to get a beautiful book.

 

Ok, so a book had a small 1/2" NCB bend in the BRC that kept it at a 9.2, but is otherwise flawless. Is the book not to be appreciated because it survived those decades nearly perfect except for that one small bend? Is it more important to keep that bend "for purity's sake" than to make the book look better? Is that "pure" 9.6 that managed to survive in almost the same condition but without that bend really worth 10 times the 9.2?

 

To this ridiculous market, YES.

 

It's madness! Is a 1/2" NCB bend on an otherwise flawless book worth a $5,000 price difference on an otherwise $7,000 book? $10,000? $25,000?

 

Yes, yes, and yes.

 

It's lunacy.

 

Nowhere else do you see this sort of ultra condition sensitivity OR vehemence against restoration. Cars are restored all the time. Do people appreciate a 1936 Studebaker built from a kit (if such a thing even exists)? Sure, to an extent. But do they appreciate a 1936 Studebaker that is nearly all original, but had a couple of dents worked out and re-finished at some point a lot more? Yes. And, should a 1936 Studebaker have managed to weather 80 years in flawless condition, it, too, is a sight to behold...but should it have had a dent worked out in the rear fender at one point in time, is that now worth 90% less than one that remained perfectly flawless?

 

I doubt it.

 

But comics? Oh yes. And more.

 

You're talking about valuing chance. Just by happenstance this book managed to survive, unscathed, for all these decades. And, just by happenstance, this other book managed to survive, unscathed, except for that 1/2" bend. But that 1/2" bend makes that book worth 90% less? Yes, in many cases, it does. But I can make it look just as nice as that 9.6, and here's the thing: I can do it in a way that makes it look like nothing was done to it at all.

 

And THAT is the real magic of pressing. It is such a process that, done under skilled and talented hands, no one can even tell it's been done.

 

If anyone is to blame, it is the people paying obscene differences in price for miniscule differences in physical preservation. Those who paid, and continue to pay, absurd differences in price for so minor differences in condition that most people wouldn't even be able to point it out...and, in some cases don't exist at all....are the ones to blame for creating this environment of madness we now live in (and I'm hardly immune. Don't think I don't recognize the role I've played, however small, in this madness.)

 

It is this "chase for numbers" which made pressing so inevitable. And, frankly, the fact that a book's appearance can be improved is really what it boils down to. Is a "virgin" 9.6 worth $10,000? Absolutely. Is an identical copy with a 1/2" NCB bend, but in otherwise identical condition worth only $1,000?

 

Yes. And that's madness. The individual answer? Stop paying absurd differences for tiny differences in condition. And, to a large extent, many people have.

 

Also...stop putting books in bags/boards/mylars, because those have an effect, over time, as well.

 

I can appreciate a book that has survived decades in ultra high grade. It is a thing to behold. But I don't treat it as the pure, virgin, undefiled thing that some of you do. I understand it, certainly...I just don't place the kind of premium you do on it. And if there was a way to detect pressing, I'd be completely for that notation on the slabs. 100%. Because then, people could decide for themselves, and I suspect the market WOULD place a SLIGHT premium on "untouched" books. But there's not, and there never will be, because all people are liars. It's our nature.

 

Oh, and that ASM #8 9.6...? You really don't know what was done to it in its life, regardless of who owned it, or what they claim. Really, as I've said before, those books were accidents of preservation, not concerted efforts to maintain condition throughout the intervening decades.

 

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

So if time is a major core component to determine if restoration has happened what is the cut off time? 1 hour? a week? 3 years? what?

 

Kav - this is going nowhere. You are making absolutely no sense. What is this "cut off time for restoration" coming from? I have made the points I wanted to make. But at this point it is obvious you are just intentionally coming up with irrelevant scenarios for what? A protracted discussion going nowhere?

 

That's his MO

[kav]

Should a book with a dot of black CT be worth 60% less than one without? No.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Isn't the first step towards any meaningful discussion on this topic the research and creation of a method to actually detect whether a book has been pressed or not?

 

Without such a method this is somewhat like stating a dislike for the act of storing comic books in purple long boxes - an understandable argument for someone that shares your aesthetics, but an annoyance in all practical cases unless you yourself bought the book off of the rack.

 

I appreciate the passion in this thread, but I just don't get the heat present on both sides for something that is, for all viable purposes, invisible when properly done.

 

Back in 2001 or so, I saw some really high grade early SA for the first time; I was 20, and just getting into collecting vintage books. It was a CGC 9.6 ASM 8 in particular that blew my mind; the colors were insanely vibrant, the corners perfectly sharp, and the spine was flawless. Up until then, I'd mostly been exposed to low and mid-grade books, and I had no idea a 40 year-old book could look that good. The book went up for auction, and sold for what everyone thought at the time was a crazy multiple of guide, but I instantly understood why it sold for that kind of money. Not only did the copy look stunning, but I found it absolutely remarkable that a book could survive 4 decades unscathed when books that were just printed and sold off the stands often didn't even look that good.

 

This, to me, justified the high prices and the massive price disparity from one grade to the next in 9.0+. When I became aware of pressing, all that went out the window. I slowly came to the realization that the justification for high grade prices, the thrill of the hunt associated with finding those untouched gems, and even the significance of pedigree collections, was significantly diminished by the practice of pressing. The fact that it's invisible doesn't make it a non-issue; the undetectable nature of "properly pressed" books is precisely the problem because it undermines and trivializes the entire pursuit of high grade books. A 9.0 pressed into a 9.6 and flipped for profit is not the same thing as a 9.6 that came directly from an original owner or succession of collectors who cared enough to select the best copy they could find and subsequently preserved it in pristine condition. It looks the same, and is labeled the same, but it's not the same.

 

Most of you probably don't share this viewpoint, which is fine, but there's a difference between not understanding something and not agreeing with it. There is also a clear financial incentive involved in NOT sharing this viewpoint, and not differentiating between these two types of 9.6s, regardless of the fact that there is no method of differentiating between a pressed and unpressed book. At this point, even if we could find a process to detect pressing, neither collectors nor CGC have any reason to rock the boat. Again, you don't have to agree with the view that pressing diminishes high grade books and high grade collecting, but the whole "haters gonna hate" argument, is a massive, and quite stupid straw-man. And boiling this down to an aesthetic argument that is irrelevant because you can't physically see the difference doesn't solve the above problem for many of us, hence the "heat" present on the anti-pressing side.

 

Not that hard to understand if you're not being deliberately obtuse.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

The fact that it's invisible doesn't make it a non-issue; the undetectable nature of "properly pressed" books is precisely the problem because it undermines and trivializes the entire pursuit of high grade books. A 9.0 pressed into a 9.6 and flipped for profit is not the same thing as a 9.6 that came directly from an original owner or succession of collectors who cared enough to select the best copy they could find and subsequently preserved it in pristine condition. It looks the same, and is labeled the same, but it's not the same.

 

The market price difference between grades is what causes the market to accept pressing.

 

 

 

 

 

Yup.

 

And, full disclosure on my part: I got into comics in 1990, when I was 17 years old. And, I lived in one of the most competitive collecting environment there has ever been, the San Francisco Bay Area. I simply didn't have access to high grade ANYTHING prior to about 1980, and if I did, I had to pay UP YOUR prices for it, for everything, all the time, forever and ever, amen. And that didn't change until the advent of eBay.

 

I didn't think...at all...that there were even such things as "Near Mint" Silver Age comics in existence until CGC, much like COI.

 

It was a total revelation to me. I was absolutely stupefied to see a 1963 comic book WITH NO FLAWS. It blew...my....mind.

 

But, of course, by then, I was completely priced out of the market.

 

I had no chance. The great Silver Age vacuum that began in 1987 had completely cleaned out the market by the time I showed up...and I had no idea until long after the fact. All the grading ability in the world didn't help me, because those books were gone, sitting in boxes in collections, not to be seen again for the entire next decade.

 

So, yes, there is a touch of "up yours" to the market for creating conditions in which I couldn't hope to compete, and when I was offered a chance to level those conditions just a wee bit, I took it. I don't deny that at all.

 

I recently pressed a 9.2 Submariner #1 into a 9.8. It was my very first pure Silver Age 9.8. The book was a thing of absolute beauty, with a flawless spine, and just a little bit of wrinkling in the logo. But that small bit of wrinkling meant the book was only "worth" $400....now it's worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $2500-$3000.

 

Ridiculous.

 

Maybe AN answer is to, as an entire community, NOT treat "pressable defects" as harshly as "unpressable defects", and remove (some of) the incentive to press. But that horse has probably hitched a ride to Toledo by now.

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

The fact that it's invisible doesn't make it a non-issue; the undetectable nature of "properly pressed" books is precisely the problem because it undermines and trivializes the entire pursuit of high grade books. A 9.0 pressed into a 9.6 and flipped for profit is not the same thing as a 9.6 that came directly from an original owner or succession of collectors who cared enough to select the best copy they could find and subsequently preserved it in pristine condition. It looks the same, and is labeled the same, but it's not the same.

 

The market price difference between grades is what causes the market to accept pressing.

 

And it's not even a 'fault' thing. Pressing is not 'wrong'. People just don't like it for whatever reasons (personal, logical, emotional, sentimental, a combination of them all).

 

It's a naturally cyclical economic principle. As prices escalate, differentiating between price points becomes more necessary and there become more ways to capitalize on those increments.

 

This house is 'almost the same as the other one' but it does have a nicer upgraded floor so I'll pay more for it.

 

Pressing is just one mechanism that capitalizes on that price point difference. Much lkike other ways such as knowing what an undergraded book looks like, what a hot and upcoming key that nobody knows about is or figuring out how one item (whether it's a comic or a house) is relatively undervalued compared to it's surrounding counterparts.

 

The main reason I believe pressing is disliked it because it changes the rules for a lot of people.

 

And that dislike is well understood. I dislike how movie books have changed the rules.

 

But I can't stop it so I adapt and move on.

 

Doesn't seem very understood, judging by the comments in this thread.

 

A 9.6 sells for more than a 9.0 because, nice as the 9.0 is, the 9.6 is just that much more special. That logic falls apart when you turn a 9.0 into a 9.6. You're putting money into someone's pocket for the service of making a 9.0 more expensive, and making 9.6s less special. There's no benefit whatsoever to the buyer of the pressed book.

 

 

Sure there is. The book looks and IS nicer.

 

 

 

[SquareChaos]

The fact that it's invisible doesn't make it a non-issue; the undetectable nature of "properly pressed" books is precisely the problem because it undermines and trivializes the entire pursuit of high grade books. A 9.0 pressed into a 9.6 and flipped for profit is not the same thing as a 9.6 that came directly from an original owner or succession of collectors who cared enough to select the best copy they could find and subsequently preserved it in pristine condition. It looks the same, and is labeled the same, but it's not the same.

 

The market price difference between grades is what causes the market to accept pressing.

 

 

 

 

 

Yup.

 

And, full disclosure on my part: I got into comics in 1990, when I was 17 years old. And, I lived in one of the most competitive collecting environment there has ever been, the San Francisco Bay Area. I simply didn't have access to high grade ANYTHING prior to about 1980, and if I did, I had to pay UP YOUR prices for it, for everything, all the time, forever and ever, amen. And that didn't change until the advent of eBay.

 

I didn't think...at all...that there were even such things as "Near Mint" Silver Age comics in existence until CGC, much like COI.

 

It was a total revelation to me. I was absolutely stupefied to see a 1963 comic book WITH NO FLAWS. It blew...my....mind.

 

But, of course, by then, I was completely priced out of the market.

 

I had no chance. The great Silver Age vacuum that began in 1987 had completely cleaned out the market by the time I showed up...and I had no idea until long after the fact. All the grading ability in the world didn't help me, because those books were gone, sitting in boxes in collections, not to be seen again for the entire next decade.

 

So, yes, there is a touch of "up yours" to the market for creating conditions in which I couldn't hope to compete, and when I was offered a chance to level those conditions just a wee bit, I took it. I don't deny that at all.

 

I recently pressed a 9.2 Submariner #1 into a 9.8. It was my very first pure Silver Age 9.8. The book was a thing of absolute beauty, with a flawless spine, and just a little bit of wrinkling in the logo. But that small bit of wrinkling meant the book was only "worth" $400....now it's worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $2500-$3000.

 

Ridiculous.

 

Maybe AN answer is to, as an entire community, NOT treat "pressable defects" as harshly as "unpressable defects", and remove (some of) the incentive to press. But that horse has probably hitched a ride to Toledo by now.

 

 

 

Good post.

 

Most of the people complaining about pressing here seems to boil down to talking about how it somehow makes them feel bad about theoretical situations that they can't even say with any certainty ever took place. I like your concrete example.

[namisgr]

Pressing is the number one reason why I gave up collecting.

 

The joy of finding something that had existed for 50+ years in pristine condition was the thrill for me.

 

Finding something that appeared to be in pristine condition, but had been manufactured the previous week...not so much fun.

 

Thanks, Nick, for expressing so succinctly what bothers some about a high grade vintage market flooded with pressed books.

[ProcessedMeatMan]

Anti-Pressing = Someone who prefers the original state of comics.

Pro-Pressing = Comic Dealer or Collector who is overly concerned with the CGC grade.

 

The "original state" of a comic... you mean clean and flat? Like... what pressing helps correct?

[BarryAllen]

Pressing isn't restoration because CGC (and other grading companies) says its not. They are the grading experts as recognized by the hobby and they make the rules. It really is as simple as that.

 

You want pressing to be restoration, convince them otherwise.

 

For 30-odd years, the industry bible (Overstreet) included pressing in their list of restorative processes.

 

They only changed their wording in around 2006 in the face of pressure from CGC and dealers who had a vested interest in the turnabout.

 

And CGC don't make THE rules. They make THEIR rules and they have taken the convenient route to discount pressing as restoration due to an inability to detect it with 100% accuracy.

 

You may very well be correct about Overstreet, but that too is immaterial. Using semantics of "THE" or "THEIR" in reference to the rules doesn't change the simple fact that grading company standards are what the industry uses to judge restoration. If that wasn't the case, this argument (in this very thread) would't exist.

 

How, why, when or whatever about the detection process or the restoration itself is also immaterial. All of the arguments against pressing are only good if someone can convince the "powers that be" to change their policy. Yes, it may be complicated and include technology or an approach that doesn't exist en masse yet (or something else) - but it doesn't change the simple truth...

 

Pressing is not restoration because the grading companies at current say so.

 

If you don't like it, take it up with them.

 

You are speaking from the position of the digital world, mainly driven by younger collectors (and dealers). In the digital world, the 'powers that be' look to be CGC.

 

But there is a much larger component of people who have been collecting since before the digital / CGC / encapsulation world every came to be, and they also have a set of standards that often contradict what CGC wants.

 

It's just that as CGC (and pressing) have grown in popularity they have quieted out those older voices over the years. It's change.

 

I agree with F_T that it didn't used to be this way. It was about 10 years ago that the 'new paradigm' began to form and has grown into being the new norm or the 'popular view' ever since.

 

As far as 'hate' from either side, 10 years ago this was a pretty heated topic from both sides. People would argue, fight, threaten each other, get strikes, troll each other. Sides were made and people became entrenched. At one point it was a constant war zone on here. Thankfully things have cooled.

 

I don't have any hate. I personally do feel for those who only want unpressed books as they are free to collect what they like, but the reality is that if a book grades out as a 9.2 unpressed, and it comes to market and people know it's going to grade as a 9.4/9.6 after pressing, then that book is going to sell for more than 9.2 money.

 

Part of changes in rules and new paradigms is that everyone needs to adapt to them.

 

For example, if you see a book go for a record price on GPA, and it sits as an outlier, you need to factor in that it could be a potentially upgradeable book and not an actual new 'GPA high' for that grade. That particular sale should not be setting a trend for lesser copies. And yet I've seen that multiple times where a book I feel has a shot at upgrade (or even worse, I know it actually has upgraded and come back to market) sell for a new all time high, and the general public takes that new high as an actual high for the grade and it starts a new price movement.

 

Another facet of adapting to the new paradigm is if collectors want to win unpressed books at auction, since it will likely sell at a premium, they may have to adjust their spending to pay the 'unpressed premium' to own that particular book. In my opinion, it should be no different than paying extra to own a Pedigree or a copy that is nicer than the assigned grade, or just a copy that looks too good for the grade. In both of those instances, those books sell for more money than the average copy.

 

Sure it's going to sound different and unorthodox compared to how things were done in the past, but so also was paying 5 times guide for Church copies back when they came out 40 years ago. And yet now it's become the norm that a Church copy (or something comparable) will generally fetch a multiple of whatever it's contemporary surrounding issues go for. It's become the new paradigm.

 

I would look at an unpressed bok the way I might look at a comic that comes from a desirable Pedigree but it's not readily apparent from the auction description that there is something special about the book. And yet, for those who do their homework, or know how to detect those hidden qualities, some bidders will recognize something special about the book. In this case, the item just happens to be a comic book that is likely going to press into the next assigned grade (or two - you get the picture).

 

If you find hidden value in it, and others do as well, it's going to draw the price of the item up but that is the way it's always been in comics. The nicer the book, the more people will drive the price up.

 

Sorry that was long winded but I hope it makes sense.

 

It makes sense. I think you are generalizing about people, typecasting them and honestly grouping people without any true data based reasoning to do so. Regardless, I cannot tell if you are disagreeing with me or just making a statement.

 

The argument is about how grading companies handle restoration and what is included and not. We aren't discussing raw book sales and the thousands of transactions that happen between thousands of people daily that are impossible to qualify or quantify the impact of pressing. The conversation, the source of the frustration on both sides, is about graded books in slabs.

 

The grading companies set the definition and therefore have the ruling on what is included as restoration or not. It doesn't matter what the history is or what any portion of the population thinks (which is all assumed). Sure it is novel to know the history of the situation and how the attitude has changed (or not), but it does not impact the current situation we are in. As the world stands today, pressing is not restoration because grading companies say so. People on here can argue whether or not restoration should include pressing - or not, but it changes nothing.

 

If someone has issues with pressing they should take it up with the grading companies. Not argue on here back and forth with others, they should provide a compelling point of view and submit it to the grading companies for consideration. If you want to change something you have to influence the decision makers.

 

It is really simple and everyone is making it out to be a choice or a point of view or a philosophy... It is a fact, because it is a decision that is made and published. Pressing is not restoration.

[namisgr]

Whether pressing is restoration or not is a red herring.

 

It's a process of manipulation. It's manufacturing. It's pressing, and it needs to be taken at face value.

[HarveySwick]

I have to say that reading this thread makes me feel because at one point I read Sean or COI's sentiments and feel but then I read RMA's argument and feel

 

 

It's crazy to say but now I don't know how I feel!

 

Do you guys feel the same way about pressing irregardless of age? I mean your arguments about books surviving 40-50 years in the hands of a careful collector and deserving a higher grade than one manipulated to achieve the same grade - I can understand the argument and sentiment behind it. Although I see RMA's counter is a valid point that if a 9.0 was cared for as well and would be the same if not for one minor difference that can be easily fixed, why shouldn't it be.

 

But how about moderns? It sort of loses that sentimentality of "surviving the ravages of time" - maybe it just didn't survive some fool handling it on the shelf or a careless store worker. If you could make a 9.4 the same as a 9.8 by pressing out NCB, is that so terrible?

 

Is there a difference in philosophy about pressing based on age or is the anti-pressing side anti-pressing no matter what the age of a book?

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

The overarching reality is that it is paper we're talking about. Paper that dents, dings, bends, crinkles, warps, or otherwise is "altered" from its "original state" very, very easily. Finding "pristine books from 50+ years ago" was an accident of preservation, and even that depends on what your definition of "pristine" is. Ok, sure, it's neat to find a book from 1947 that is flawless, and actually remained that way without any manipulation of any kind (whether it's via commercial pressing, or someone just putting it under a stack of heavy books for 10 years.)

 

But those books are aberrations, freaks of nature in an absolute sense, total accidents of preservation, not the rule. If there are 500 pre-1963 Marvels/Atlas/Timelys in 9.8 condition naturally, with no manipulation of any sort, I'd be very, very surprised. And that encompasses tens of millions of copies printed. Yes, that's a guess, but I don't believe it's too far off...and that includes the Church collection.

 

So, sure, one can pine for the fjords and wish for there not to be manipulation....but the supply of those books that naturally ended up preserved that way...and there's no going back once one of those is damaged, for you...was so small, it wasn't really a field that many people could reasonably collect.

 

Frankly...I prefer that books like as nice as they can. Driving that 1936 Studebaker around with an ugly dent because it's "100% original" isn't going to make me happy.

 

As I've said before....if you don't like that the market has normalized pressing, buy up all the unpressed, OO copies you can, and then never sell them, ever. Also, stop paying crazy prices for comics of any kind.

 

Problem solved. (?)

 

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

Pressing isn't restoration because CGC (and other grading companies) says its not. They are the grading experts as recognized by the hobby and they make the rules. It really is as simple as that.

 

You want pressing to be restoration, convince them otherwise.

 

For 30-odd years, the industry bible (Overstreet) included pressing in their list of restorative processes.

 

They only changed their wording in around 2006 in the face of pressure from CGC and dealers who had a vested interest in the turnabout.

 

And CGC don't make THE rules. They make THEIR rules and they have taken the convenient route to discount pressing as restoration due to an inability to detect it with 100% accuracy.

 

You may very well be correct about Overstreet, but that too is immaterial. Using semantics of "THE" or "THEIR" in reference to the rules doesn't change the simple fact that grading company standards are what the industry uses to judge restoration. If that wasn't the case, this argument (in this very thread) would't exist.

 

How, why, when or whatever about the detection process or the restoration itself is also immaterial. All of the arguments against pressing are only good if someone can convince the "powers that be" to change their policy. Yes, it may be complicated and include technology or an approach that doesn't exist en masse yet (or something else) - but it doesn't change the simple truth...

 

Pressing is not restoration because the grading companies at current say so.

 

If you don't like it, take it up with them.

 

You are speaking from the position of the digital world, mainly driven by younger collectors (and dealers). In the digital world, the 'powers that be' look to be CGC.

 

But there is a much larger component of people who have been collecting since before the digital / CGC / encapsulation world every came to be, and they also have a set of standards that often contradict what CGC wants.

 

It's just that as CGC (and pressing) have grown in popularity they have quieted out those older voices over the years. It's change.

 

I agree with F_T that it didn't used to be this way. It was about 10 years ago that the 'new paradigm' began to form and has grown into being the new norm or the 'popular view' ever since.

 

As far as 'hate' from either side, 10 years ago this was a pretty heated topic from both sides. People would argue, fight, threaten each other, get strikes, troll each other. Sides were made and people became entrenched. At one point it was a constant war zone on here. Thankfully things have cooled.

 

I don't have any hate. I personally do feel for those who only want unpressed books as they are free to collect what they like, but the reality is that if a book grades out as a 9.2 unpressed, and it comes to market and people know it's going to grade as a 9.4/9.6 after pressing, then that book is going to sell for more than 9.2 money.

 

Part of changes in rules and new paradigms is that everyone needs to adapt to them.

 

For example, if you see a book go for a record price on GPA, and it sits as an outlier, you need to factor in that it could be a potentially upgradeable book and not an actual new 'GPA high' for that grade. That particular sale should not be setting a trend for lesser copies. And yet I've seen that multiple times where a book I feel has a shot at upgrade (or even worse, I know it actually has upgraded and come back to market) sell for a new all time high, and the general public takes that new high as an actual high for the grade and it starts a new price movement.

 

Another facet of adapting to the new paradigm is if collectors want to win unpressed books at auction, since it will likely sell at a premium, they may have to adjust their spending to pay the 'unpressed premium' to own that particular book. In my opinion, it should be no different than paying extra to own a Pedigree or a copy that is nicer than the assigned grade, or just a copy that looks too good for the grade. In both of those instances, those books sell for more money than the average copy.

 

Sure it's going to sound different and unorthodox compared to how things were done in the past, but so also was paying 5 times guide for Church copies back when they came out 40 years ago. And yet now it's become the norm that a Church copy (or something comparable) will generally fetch a multiple of whatever it's contemporary surrounding issues go for. It's become the new paradigm.

 

I would look at an unpressed bok the way I might look at a comic that comes from a desirable Pedigree but it's not readily apparent from the auction description that there is something special about the book. And yet, for those who do their homework, or know how to detect those hidden qualities, some bidders will recognize something special about the book. In this case, the item just happens to be a comic book that is likely going to press into the next assigned grade (or two - you get the picture).

 

If you find hidden value in it, and others do as well, it's going to draw the price of the item up but that is the way it's always been in comics. The nicer the book, the more people will drive the price up.

 

Sorry that was long winded but I hope it makes sense.

 

It makes sense. I think you are generalizing about people, typecasting them and honestly grouping people without any true data based reasoning to do so. Regardless, I cannot tell if you are disagreeing with me or just making a statement.

 

The argument is about how grading companies handle restoration and what is included and not. We aren't discussing raw book sales and the thousands of transactions that happen between thousands of people daily that are impossible to qualify or quantify the impact of pressing. The conversation, the source of the frustration on both sides, is about graded books in slabs.

 

The grading companies set the definition and therefore have the ruling on what is included as restoration or not. It doesn't matter what the history is or what any portion of the population thinks (which is all assumed). Sure it is novel to know the history of the situation and how the attitude has changed (or not), but it does not impact the current situation we are in. As the world stands today, pressing is not restoration because grading companies say so. People on here can argue whether or not restoration should include pressing - or not, but it changes nothing.

 

If someone has issues with pressing they should take it up with the grading companies. Not argue on here back and forth with others, they should provide a compelling point of view and submit it to the grading companies for consideration. If you want to change something you have to influence the decision makers.

 

It is really simple and everyone is making it out to be a choice or a point of view or a philosophy... It is a fact, because it is a decision that is made and published. Pressing is not restoration.

 

Incorrect.

 

CGC is not a regulatory body. It is simply a for-profit organisation that makes money from the stance that pressing isn't restoration.

 

Their opinion is that pressing isn't restoration doesn't make it so.

 

It is actually us, the buying public, who make that decision.

[MetalPSI]

The overarching reality is that it is paper we're talking about. Paper that dents, dings, bends, crinkles, warps, or otherwise is "altered" from its "original state" very, very easily. Finding "pristine books from 50+ years ago" was an accident of preservation, and even that depends on what your definition of "pristine" is. Ok, sure, it's neat to find a book from 1947 that is flawless, and actually remained that way without any manipulation of any kind (whether it's via commercial pressing, or someone just putting it under a stack of heavy books for 10 years.)

 

But those books are aberrations, freaks of nature in an absolute sense, total accidents of preservation, not the rule. If there are 500 pre-1963 Marvels/Atlas/Timelys in 9.8 condition naturally, with no manipulation of any sort, I'd be very, very surprised. And that encompasses tens of millions of copies printed. Yes, that's a guess, but I don't believe it's too far off...and that includes the Church collection.

 

So, sure, one can pine for the fjords and wish for there not to be manipulation....but the supply of those books that naturally ended up preserved that way...and there's no going back once one of those is damaged, for you...was so small, it wasn't really a field that many people could reasonably collect.

 

Frankly...I prefer that books like as nice as they can. Driving that 1936 Studebaker around with an ugly dent because it's "100% original" isn't going to make me happy.

 

As I've said before....if you don't like that the market has normalized pressing, buy up all the unpressed, OO copies you can, and then never sell them, ever. Also, stop paying crazy prices for comics of any kind.

 

Problem solved. (?)

 

 

 

No worries, someone will come along and think up another problem anyways