Why do Anti-Pressers HATE pressing?

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

 

Also....before I knew about pressing, it used to absolutely break my heart to see someone...whether myself or someone else...damage a book that had heretofore been immaculate. It just broke my heart. To see a 1964 book that had survived the ravages of time be "destroyed" in a single careless moment...it just killed me. I would sit there, having dropped, I don't know, a sharp corner of a board onto a book beneath it, and put a dent into an otherwise beautiful book, and then I would freak out, then carefully take the book, breathe on it for a little bit to "warm it up", then press my thumb (always with a piece of paper in between for oil!) onto the dent to try and work it out.

 

Now, though, that can be mitigated or even completely reversed under the right conditions. And, frankly, why should a single moment of carelessness take back the 50 years that the book remained flawless if it doesn't have to?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

By the way....why are people concerned with pristine books getting them slabbed in the first place? Let's be completely transparent, here: you're sending YOUR books, YOUR babies, the books YOU carefully hand selected over years, and just as carefully stored, also for years, to other people is a risk.

 

Those other people...no matter how careful they are, and how conscientious they are...do not have the ownership of your books that you do. And putting these comics in these hard plastic cases carries a level of risk, whether it's from handling, or encapsulating, or shipping, or the interior of the case itself.

 

And we know that there are (were?) pristine books out there, high value, high grade books, that have slight damage from the wells...nevermind the current discussion.

 

This isn't an indictment of slabbing or CGC; they have quite obviously done a fantastic job heretofore....it's just human nature. What I own is going to be cared for more than what you own. That's just the way it works.

 

If you really cared about pristine books, you'd never let anyone else touch them, ever, for any reason.

 

And yes, there are books that I will never let anyone else touch, for any reason, until I have to sell them.

 

[kav]

Dang I thought I had the thrill of finding a book from 1962 that had survived and was in a 9.4 state but it was just a crappy 9.0 that had been pressed.

[COI]

Ok, so a book had a small 1/2" NCB bend in the BRC that kept it at a 9.2, but is otherwise flawless. Is the book not to be appreciated because it survived those decades nearly perfect except for that one small bend? Is it more important to keep that bend "for purity's sake" than to make the book look better? Is that "pure" 9.6 that managed to survive in almost the same condition but without that bend really worth 10 times the 9.2?

 

A 9.2 with a couple NCB bends is a beautiful book, but it's priced as a 9.2, and in a world without pressing, the proportion of 9.2s to 9.6s available would help justify the price difference.. Again, the fact that one or two tiny NCB dents or bends separates a 9.2 from a 9.6 is precisely what makes the 9.6 so remarkable, and hence so expensive. Turning a 9.2 into a 9.6 makes that copy more expensive, while at the same time adding one more 9.6 to the census. If the book was already beautiful with very minor NCB creases which may not even be visible through a slab, the buyer gets a different label at a much higher price; the cost difference being the entire reason the book was pressed in the first place.

 

ou're talking about valuing chance. Just by happenstance this book managed to survive, unscathed, for all these decades. And, just by happenstance, this other book managed to survive, unscathed, except for that 1/2" bend. But that 1/2" bend makes that book worth 90% less? Yes, in many cases, it does. But I can make it look just as nice as that 9.6, and here's the thing: I can do it in a way that makes it look like nothing was done to it at all.

 

And THAT is the real magic of pressing. It is such a process that, done under skilled and talented hands, no one can even tell it's been done.

 

It's not total madness that a 1/2" bend devalues a book by 90%. It may not be something most are willing to pay, but "madness" implies there is no logic to it, which isn't the case. Considering that most copies hitting the newsstand already had dings and bends that, decades later, would preclude that book from achieving a 9.6 or 9.8 grade, it's precisely that crazy confluence of circumstance in which a copy hits newsstands in pristine shape and somehow makes it through the decades incurring little to no damage, that makes the book a rarity in its own right. And rarity is a big part of collecting. I think some of the price differences from one grade to the next, particularly in the early days of slabbing, were excessive, but that's more of a subjective value judgment. And yes, it was precisely those price differences that made pressing inevitable.

 

If anyone is to blame, it is the people paying obscene differences in price for miniscule differences in physical preservation. Those who paid, and continue to pay, absurd differences in price for so minor differences in condition that most people wouldn't even be able to point it out...and, in some cases don't exist at all....are the ones to blame for creating this environment of madness we now live in (and I'm hardly immune. Don't think I don't recognize the role I've played, however small, in this madness.)

 

It is this "chase for numbers" which made pressing so inevitable. And, frankly, the fact that a book's appearance can be improved is really what it boils down to. Is a "virgin" 9.6 worth $10,000? Absolutely. Is an identical copy with a 1/2" NCB bend, but in otherwise identical condition worth only $1,000?

 

Yes. And that's madness. The individual answer? Stop paying absurd differences for tiny differences in condition. And, to a large extent, many people have.

 

Also...stop putting books in bags/boards/mylars, because those have an effect, over time, as well.

 

I can appreciate a book that has survived decades in ultra high grade. It is a thing to behold. But I don't treat it as the pure, virgin, undefiled thing that some of you do. I understand it, certainly...I just don't place the kind of premium you do on it. And if there was a way to detect pressing, I'd be completely for that notation on the slabs. 100%. Because then, people could decide for themselves, and I suspect the market WOULD place a SLIGHT premium on "untouched" books. But there's not, and there never will be, because all people are liars. It's our nature.

 

Oh, and that ASM #8 9.6...? You really don't know what was done to it in its life, regardless of who owned it, or what they claim. Really, as I've said before, those books were accidents of preservation, not concerted efforts to maintain condition throughout the intervening decades.

 

I mostly agree with all of this, and I'm aware that the books that initially blew my mind and got me interested in high grade may have in fact been pressed. That's precisely why the "revelation" was disheartening to me and ultimately led me to stop getting excited about high grade books. And it certainly made me unwilling to pay those multiples for super high grade copies.

[COI]

Dang I thought I had the thrill of finding a book from 1962 that had survived and was in a 9.4 state but it was just a crappy 9.0 that had been pressed.

 

Garbage post.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Ok, so a book had a small 1/2" NCB bend in the BRC that kept it at a 9.2, but is otherwise flawless. Is the book not to be appreciated because it survived those decades nearly perfect except for that one small bend? Is it more important to keep that bend "for purity's sake" than to make the book look better? Is that "pure" 9.6 that managed to survive in almost the same condition but without that bend really worth 10 times the 9.2?

 

A 9.2 with a couple NCB bends is a beautiful book, but it's priced as a 9.2, and in a world without pressing, the proportion of 9.2s to 9.6s available would help justify the price difference.. Again, the fact that one or two tiny NCB dents or bends separates a 9.2 from a 9.6 is precisely what makes the 9.6 so remarkable, and hence so expensive. Turning a 9.2 into a 9.6 makes that copy more expensive, while at the same time adding one more 9.6 to the census. If the book was already beautiful with very minor NCB creases which may not even be visible through a slab, the buyer gets a different label at a much higher price; the cost difference being the entire reason the book was pressed in the first place.

 

ou're talking about valuing chance. Just by happenstance this book managed to survive, unscathed, for all these decades. And, just by happenstance, this other book managed to survive, unscathed, except for that 1/2" bend. But that 1/2" bend makes that book worth 90% less? Yes, in many cases, it does. But I can make it look just as nice as that 9.6, and here's the thing: I can do it in a way that makes it look like nothing was done to it at all.

 

And THAT is the real magic of pressing. It is such a process that, done under skilled and talented hands, no one can even tell it's been done.

 

It's not total madness that a 1/2" bend devalues a book by 90%. It may not be something most are willing to pay, but "madness" implies there is no logic to it, which isn't the case.

 

 

 

I just can't agree with this. The difference between the level of preservation shouldn't mean one book is worth 10 times the other. The 9.2 is not 10 times worse, nor the 9.6 ten times better, by any objective measure.

 

I understand your argument...that there should be more 9.2s, and fewer 9.6s...but I don't agree that the market should treat them with such disparity because of such tiny differences in physical condition.

 

I'm afraid that's the sticking point.

 

[BarryAllen]

Pressing isn't restoration because CGC (and other grading companies) says its not. They are the grading experts as recognized by the hobby and they make the rules. It really is as simple as that.

 

You want pressing to be restoration, convince them otherwise.

 

For 30-odd years, the industry bible (Overstreet) included pressing in their list of restorative processes.

 

They only changed their wording in around 2006 in the face of pressure from CGC and dealers who had a vested interest in the turnabout.

 

And CGC don't make THE rules. They make THEIR rules and they have taken the convenient route to discount pressing as restoration due to an inability to detect it with 100% accuracy.

 

You may very well be correct about Overstreet, but that too is immaterial. Using semantics of "THE" or "THEIR" in reference to the rules doesn't change the simple fact that grading company standards are what the industry uses to judge restoration. If that wasn't the case, this argument (in this very thread) would't exist.

 

How, why, when or whatever about the detection process or the restoration itself is also immaterial. All of the arguments against pressing are only good if someone can convince the "powers that be" to change their policy. Yes, it may be complicated and include technology or an approach that doesn't exist en masse yet (or something else) - but it doesn't change the simple truth...

 

Pressing is not restoration because the grading companies at current say so.

 

If you don't like it, take it up with them.

 

You are speaking from the position of the digital world, mainly driven by younger collectors (and dealers). In the digital world, the 'powers that be' look to be CGC.

 

But there is a much larger component of people who have been collecting since before the digital / CGC / encapsulation world every came to be, and they also have a set of standards that often contradict what CGC wants.

 

It's just that as CGC (and pressing) have grown in popularity they have quieted out those older voices over the years. It's change.

 

I agree with F_T that it didn't used to be this way. It was about 10 years ago that the 'new paradigm' began to form and has grown into being the new norm or the 'popular view' ever since.

 

As far as 'hate' from either side, 10 years ago this was a pretty heated topic from both sides. People would argue, fight, threaten each other, get strikes, troll each other. Sides were made and people became entrenched. At one point it was a constant war zone on here. Thankfully things have cooled.

 

I don't have any hate. I personally do feel for those who only want unpressed books as they are free to collect what they like, but the reality is that if a book grades out as a 9.2 unpressed, and it comes to market and people know it's going to grade as a 9.4/9.6 after pressing, then that book is going to sell for more than 9.2 money.

 

Part of changes in rules and new paradigms is that everyone needs to adapt to them.

 

For example, if you see a book go for a record price on GPA, and it sits as an outlier, you need to factor in that it could be a potentially upgradeable book and not an actual new 'GPA high' for that grade. That particular sale should not be setting a trend for lesser copies. And yet I've seen that multiple times where a book I feel has a shot at upgrade (or even worse, I know it actually has upgraded and come back to market) sell for a new all time high, and the general public takes that new high as an actual high for the grade and it starts a new price movement.

 

Another facet of adapting to the new paradigm is if collectors want to win unpressed books at auction, since it will likely sell at a premium, they may have to adjust their spending to pay the 'unpressed premium' to own that particular book. In my opinion, it should be no different than paying extra to own a Pedigree or a copy that is nicer than the assigned grade, or just a copy that looks too good for the grade. In both of those instances, those books sell for more money than the average copy.

 

Sure it's going to sound different and unorthodox compared to how things were done in the past, but so also was paying 5 times guide for Church copies back when they came out 40 years ago. And yet now it's become the norm that a Church copy (or something comparable) will generally fetch a multiple of whatever it's contemporary surrounding issues go for. It's become the new paradigm.

 

I would look at an unpressed bok the way I might look at a comic that comes from a desirable Pedigree but it's not readily apparent from the auction description that there is something special about the book. And yet, for those who do their homework, or know how to detect those hidden qualities, some bidders will recognize something special about the book. In this case, the item just happens to be a comic book that is likely going to press into the next assigned grade (or two - you get the picture).

 

If you find hidden value in it, and others do as well, it's going to draw the price of the item up but that is the way it's always been in comics. The nicer the book, the more people will drive the price up.

 

Sorry that was long winded but I hope it makes sense.

 

It makes sense. I think you are generalizing about people, typecasting them and honestly grouping people without any true data based reasoning to do so. Regardless, I cannot tell if you are disagreeing with me or just making a statement.

 

The argument is about how grading companies handle restoration and what is included and not. We aren't discussing raw book sales and the thousands of transactions that happen between thousands of people daily that are impossible to qualify or quantify the impact of pressing. The conversation, the source of the frustration on both sides, is about graded books in slabs.

 

The grading companies set the definition and therefore have the ruling on what is included as restoration or not. It doesn't matter what the history is or what any portion of the population thinks (which is all assumed). Sure it is novel to know the history of the situation and how the attitude has changed (or not), but it does not impact the current situation we are in. As the world stands today, pressing is not restoration because grading companies say so. People on here can argue whether or not restoration should include pressing - or not, but it changes nothing.

 

If someone has issues with pressing they should take it up with the grading companies. Not argue on here back and forth with others, they should provide a compelling point of view and submit it to the grading companies for consideration. If you want to change something you have to influence the decision makers.

 

It is really simple and everyone is making it out to be a choice or a point of view or a philosophy... It is a fact, because it is a decision that is made and published. Pressing is not restoration.

 

Incorrect.

 

CGC is not a regulatory body. It is simply a for-profit organisation that makes money from the stance that pressing isn't restoration.

 

Their opinion is that pressing isn't restoration doesn't make it so.

 

It is actually us, the buying public, who make that decision.

 

I get that you think you are making a compelling argument, but you aren't. The buying public isn't deciding anything other than what to purchase. The criteria to classify books are actually determined by those selling the comics. In this instance the sellers recognize grading companies as professional 3rd party experts to drive consistent standards in the market. If they don't use a grading company, they use other standards or make them up themselves (nothing governs or prevents this). I can sell a raw pressed book as unrestored or restored and both are not wrong. However if I choose to sell graded comics, I am required to sell them as their grading indicates or I may commit misrepresentation.

 

The argument isn't about pressing, it is about people's anger (or not) that grading companies do not consider pressing as restoration. That is a fact that is not up for debate and it frustrates people.

 

You can choose to not buy a graded book, but you cannot choose whether they consider pressing as restoration or not.

[COI]

The fact that it's invisible doesn't make it a non-issue; the undetectable nature of "properly pressed" books is precisely the problem because it undermines and trivializes the entire pursuit of high grade books. A 9.0 pressed into a 9.6 and flipped for profit is not the same thing as a 9.6 that came directly from an original owner or succession of collectors who cared enough to select the best copy they could find and subsequently preserved it in pristine condition. It looks the same, and is labeled the same, but it's not the same.

 

The market price difference between grades is what causes the market to accept pressing.

 

 

 

 

 

Yup.

 

And, full disclosure on my part: I got into comics in 1990, when I was 17 years old. And, I lived in one of the most competitive collecting environment there has ever been, the San Francisco Bay Area. I simply didn't have access to high grade ANYTHING prior to about 1980, and if I did, I had to pay UP YOUR prices for it, for everything, all the time, forever and ever, amen. And that didn't change until the advent of eBay.

 

I didn't think...at all...that there were even such things as "Near Mint" Silver Age comics in existence until CGC, much like COI.

 

It was a total revelation to me. I was absolutely stupefied to see a 1963 comic book WITH NO FLAWS. It blew...my....mind.

 

But, of course, by then, I was completely priced out of the market.

 

I had no chance. The great Silver Age vacuum that began in 1987 had completely cleaned out the market by the time I showed up...and I had no idea until long after the fact. All the grading ability in the world didn't help me, because those books were gone, sitting in boxes in collections, not to be seen again for the entire next decade.

 

So, yes, there is a touch of "up yours" to the market for creating conditions in which I couldn't hope to compete, and when I was offered a chance to level those conditions just a wee bit, I took it. I don't deny that at all.

 

I recently pressed a 9.2 Submariner #1 into a 9.8. It was my very first pure Silver Age 9.8. The book was a thing of absolute beauty, with a flawless spine, and just a little bit of wrinkling in the logo. But that small bit of wrinkling meant the book was only "worth" $400....now it's worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $2500-$3000.

 

Ridiculous.

 

Maybe AN answer is to, as an entire community, NOT treat "pressable defects" as harshly as "unpressable defects", and remove (some of) the incentive to press. But that horse has probably hitched a ride to Toledo by now.

 

 

 

Good post.

 

Most of the people complaining about pressing here seems to boil down to talking about how it somehow makes them feel bad about theoretical situations that they can't even say with any certainty ever took place. I like your concrete example.

 

You asked why these discussions get heated? Maybe people get frustrated with having their arguments boiled down in such a sloppy manner.

[oakman29]

[COI]

Ok, so a book had a small 1/2" NCB bend in the BRC that kept it at a 9.2, but is otherwise flawless. Is the book not to be appreciated because it survived those decades nearly perfect except for that one small bend? Is it more important to keep that bend "for purity's sake" than to make the book look better? Is that "pure" 9.6 that managed to survive in almost the same condition but without that bend really worth 10 times the 9.2?

 

A 9.2 with a couple NCB bends is a beautiful book, but it's priced as a 9.2, and in a world without pressing, the proportion of 9.2s to 9.6s available would help justify the price difference.. Again, the fact that one or two tiny NCB dents or bends separates a 9.2 from a 9.6 is precisely what makes the 9.6 so remarkable, and hence so expensive. Turning a 9.2 into a 9.6 makes that copy more expensive, while at the same time adding one more 9.6 to the census. If the book was already beautiful with very minor NCB creases which may not even be visible through a slab, the buyer gets a different label at a much higher price; the cost difference being the entire reason the book was pressed in the first place.

 

ou're talking about valuing chance. Just by happenstance this book managed to survive, unscathed, for all these decades. And, just by happenstance, this other book managed to survive, unscathed, except for that 1/2" bend. But that 1/2" bend makes that book worth 90% less? Yes, in many cases, it does. But I can make it look just as nice as that 9.6, and here's the thing: I can do it in a way that makes it look like nothing was done to it at all.

 

And THAT is the real magic of pressing. It is such a process that, done under skilled and talented hands, no one can even tell it's been done.

 

It's not total madness that a 1/2" bend devalues a book by 90%. It may not be something most are willing to pay, but "madness" implies there is no logic to it, which isn't the case.

 

 

 

I just can't agree with this. The difference between the level of preservation shouldn't mean one book is worth 10 times the other. The 9.2 is not 10 times worse, nor the 9.6 ten times better, by any objective measure.

 

I understand your argument...that there should be more 9.2s, and fewer 9.6s...but I don't agree that the market should treat them with such disparity because of such tiny differences in physical condition.

 

I'm afraid that's the sticking point.

 

I'm not even saying that the market ever SHOULD have treat them with that degree of disparity, but that there was an underlying logic to the disparity. Ultimately, I wish that disparity never existed, because maybe then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[october]

I'm not even saying that the market ever SHOULD have treat them with that degree of disparity, but that there was an underlying logic to the disparity. Ultimately, I wish that disparity never existed, because maybe then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

 

I think you might be overselling the "logic" behind these slight condition/price differences. I once cracked a 9.2 TTA 93, resubbed it, and it got a 9.6. It went from $400 book to $3000 book. No bends pressed out, no slight differences in condition, nothing different other than the label. Ask anyone outside of the high grade collecting game if that's sane.

 

The logic behind all of this goes out the window once you realize how fluid and arbitrary these slight grade differences are. The market reads them as absolutes, but after subbing hundreds and hundreds of books over the course of a decade it just doesn't pass muster. It's not always the luck of the draw, but it's often enough to make the insane multiples paid laughable.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Pressing isn't restoration because CGC (and other grading companies) says its not. They are the grading experts as recognized by the hobby and they make the rules. It really is as simple as that.

 

You want pressing to be restoration, convince them otherwise.

 

For 30-odd years, the industry bible (Overstreet) included pressing in their list of restorative processes.

 

They only changed their wording in around 2006 in the face of pressure from CGC and dealers who had a vested interest in the turnabout.

 

And CGC don't make THE rules. They make THEIR rules and they have taken the convenient route to discount pressing as restoration due to an inability to detect it with 100% accuracy.

 

You may very well be correct about Overstreet, but that too is immaterial. Using semantics of "THE" or "THEIR" in reference to the rules doesn't change the simple fact that grading company standards are what the industry uses to judge restoration. If that wasn't the case, this argument (in this very thread) would't exist.

 

How, why, when or whatever about the detection process or the restoration itself is also immaterial. All of the arguments against pressing are only good if someone can convince the "powers that be" to change their policy. Yes, it may be complicated and include technology or an approach that doesn't exist en masse yet (or something else) - but it doesn't change the simple truth...

 

Pressing is not restoration because the grading companies at current say so.

 

If you don't like it, take it up with them.

 

You are speaking from the position of the digital world, mainly driven by younger collectors (and dealers). In the digital world, the 'powers that be' look to be CGC.

 

But there is a much larger component of people who have been collecting since before the digital / CGC / encapsulation world every came to be, and they also have a set of standards that often contradict what CGC wants.

 

It's just that as CGC (and pressing) have grown in popularity they have quieted out those older voices over the years. It's change.

 

I agree with F_T that it didn't used to be this way. It was about 10 years ago that the 'new paradigm' began to form and has grown into being the new norm or the 'popular view' ever since.

 

As far as 'hate' from either side, 10 years ago this was a pretty heated topic from both sides. People would argue, fight, threaten each other, get strikes, troll each other. Sides were made and people became entrenched. At one point it was a constant war zone on here. Thankfully things have cooled.

 

I don't have any hate. I personally do feel for those who only want unpressed books as they are free to collect what they like, but the reality is that if a book grades out as a 9.2 unpressed, and it comes to market and people know it's going to grade as a 9.4/9.6 after pressing, then that book is going to sell for more than 9.2 money.

 

Part of changes in rules and new paradigms is that everyone needs to adapt to them.

 

For example, if you see a book go for a record price on GPA, and it sits as an outlier, you need to factor in that it could be a potentially upgradeable book and not an actual new 'GPA high' for that grade. That particular sale should not be setting a trend for lesser copies. And yet I've seen that multiple times where a book I feel has a shot at upgrade (or even worse, I know it actually has upgraded and come back to market) sell for a new all time high, and the general public takes that new high as an actual high for the grade and it starts a new price movement.

 

Another facet of adapting to the new paradigm is if collectors want to win unpressed books at auction, since it will likely sell at a premium, they may have to adjust their spending to pay the 'unpressed premium' to own that particular book. In my opinion, it should be no different than paying extra to own a Pedigree or a copy that is nicer than the assigned grade, or just a copy that looks too good for the grade. In both of those instances, those books sell for more money than the average copy.

 

Sure it's going to sound different and unorthodox compared to how things were done in the past, but so also was paying 5 times guide for Church copies back when they came out 40 years ago. And yet now it's become the norm that a Church copy (or something comparable) will generally fetch a multiple of whatever it's contemporary surrounding issues go for. It's become the new paradigm.

 

I would look at an unpressed bok the way I might look at a comic that comes from a desirable Pedigree but it's not readily apparent from the auction description that there is something special about the book. And yet, for those who do their homework, or know how to detect those hidden qualities, some bidders will recognize something special about the book. In this case, the item just happens to be a comic book that is likely going to press into the next assigned grade (or two - you get the picture).

 

If you find hidden value in it, and others do as well, it's going to draw the price of the item up but that is the way it's always been in comics. The nicer the book, the more people will drive the price up.

 

Sorry that was long winded but I hope it makes sense.

 

It makes sense. I think you are generalizing about people, typecasting them and honestly grouping people without any true data based reasoning to do so. Regardless, I cannot tell if you are disagreeing with me or just making a statement.

 

The argument is about how grading companies handle restoration and what is included and not. We aren't discussing raw book sales and the thousands of transactions that happen between thousands of people daily that are impossible to qualify or quantify the impact of pressing. The conversation, the source of the frustration on both sides, is about graded books in slabs.

 

The grading companies set the definition and therefore have the ruling on what is included as restoration or not. It doesn't matter what the history is or what any portion of the population thinks (which is all assumed). Sure it is novel to know the history of the situation and how the attitude has changed (or not), but it does not impact the current situation we are in. As the world stands today, pressing is not restoration because grading companies say so. People on here can argue whether or not restoration should include pressing - or not, but it changes nothing.

 

If someone has issues with pressing they should take it up with the grading companies. Not argue on here back and forth with others, they should provide a compelling point of view and submit it to the grading companies for consideration. If you want to change something you have to influence the decision makers.

 

It is really simple and everyone is making it out to be a choice or a point of view or a philosophy... It is a fact, because it is a decision that is made and published. Pressing is not restoration.

 

Incorrect.

 

CGC is not a regulatory body. It is simply a for-profit organisation that makes money from the stance that pressing isn't restoration.

 

Their opinion is that pressing isn't restoration doesn't make it so.

 

It is actually us, the buying public, who make that decision.

 

I get that you think you are making a compelling argument, but you aren't. The buying public isn't deciding anything other than what to purchase. The criteria to classify books are actually determined by those selling the comics. In this instance the sellers recognize grading companies as professional 3rd party experts to drive consistent standards in the market. If they don't use a grading company, they use other standards or make them up themselves (nothing governs or prevents this). I can sell a raw pressed book as unrestored or restored and both are not wrong. However if I choose to sell graded comics, I am required to sell them as their grading indicates or I may commit misrepresentation.

 

The argument isn't about pressing, it is about people's anger (or not) that grading companies do not consider pressing as restoration. That is a fact that is not up for debate and it frustrates people.

 

You can choose to not buy a graded book, but you cannot choose whether they consider pressing as restoration or not.

 

You've either missed the point, or have gone off track a bit.

 

I've simply stated my personal opinion, and backed it up with reasons.

 

CGC have a different opinion.

 

Neither of us is right or wrong because of our position, because neither of us in a regulatory position.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I'm not even saying that the market ever SHOULD have treat them with that degree of disparity, but that there was an underlying logic to the disparity. Ultimately, I wish that disparity never existed, because maybe then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

 

I think you might be overselling the "logic" behind these slight condition/price differences. I once cracked a 9.2 TTA 93, resubbed it, and it got a 9.6. It went from $400 book to $3000 book. No bends pressed out, no slight differences in condition, nothing different other than the label. Ask anyone outside of the high grade collecting game if that's sane.

 

The logic behind all of this goes out the window once you realize how fluid and arbitrary these slight grade differences are. The market reads them as absolutes, but after subbing hundreds and hundreds of books over the course of a decade it just doesn't pass muster. It's not always the luck of the draw, but it's often enough to make the insane multiples paid laughable.

 

Indeed.

 

But as they say, there's a sucker born every minute...

[kav]

Dang I thought I had the thrill of finding a book from 1962 that had survived and was in a 9.4 state but it was just a crappy 9.0 that had been pressed.

 

Garbage post.

Garbage rebuttal

[Arkham]

I've seen a lot of stong opinions by people for and against pressing.

 

I am just wondering what is the driving force/forces AGAINST pressing?

 

Is it:

 

A) Pressing could potentially harm the comic

B) Pressing floods the market with "High Grade" comics

C) Pressign is really the same thing as Undisclosed Restoration

D) I dont like seeing books I've sold pressed & flipped for more $ than I sold it for

E) Other...(please elaborate)

 

Sure A, B, C are worth considering... but for me it is E.

 

I just like the idea of the comic being presented in the condition it is actually in.

 

That condition represents that book's history...

 

There are those who have spent their entire lives carefully collecting, managing and storing their books and have a pristine book with a high grade... that is such a thing of beauty.

There are others that have curled spines and well worn edges from being a well-read and loved book... that has its own charm too.

 

Collecting is a fantastic hobby... it's part obsession, it's part art form and it's dedication... All with the unique flavour of individual taste.

 

Pressing sort of cheapens that by diluting the history of the book in terms of how the book has actually been handled and cared for over the years... It's no longer 100% authentic.

 

I dislike that it is more commonly motivated by maximising seller profit rather than maximising someone's own collection. I am also conservatively concerned about unknown long-term effects... for all those reasons, and possibly more, I don't like it. Similarly, I don't like when athletes get medals when they've taken performance enhancing substances... And while they might look great in clothes, I don't like the feel of fake boobs in my hands.

 

It's just my take on collecting, as I don't sell for a living. I don't understand the process behind pressing, so I am ignorant, naive and fearful of things I don't understand. It's all of that... It's "E".

 

 

[october]

I'm not even saying that the market ever SHOULD have treat them with that degree of disparity, but that there was an underlying logic to the disparity. Ultimately, I wish that disparity never existed, because maybe then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

 

I think you might be overselling the "logic" behind these slight condition/price differences. I once cracked a 9.2 TTA 93, resubbed it, and it got a 9.6. It went from $400 book to $3000 book. No bends pressed out, no slight differences in condition, nothing different other than the label. Ask anyone outside of the high grade collecting game if that's sane.

 

The logic behind all of this goes out the window once you realize how fluid and arbitrary these slight grade differences are. The market reads them as absolutes, but after subbing hundreds and hundreds of books over the course of a decade it just doesn't pass muster. It's not always the luck of the draw, but it's often enough to make the insane multiples paid laughable.

 

Indeed.

 

But as they say, there's a sucker born every minute...

 

Outside of a potential handful of hyper-anal collectors, who would have even split that grading hair before CGC arrived on the scene? A 1/2" bend? Both of those hypothetical books would have been labelled near mint or mint and sold for the same amount.

 

CGC created these bizarro high end grades and their attendant price differences out of whole cloth.

 

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

I'm not even saying that the market ever SHOULD have treat them with that degree of disparity, but that there was an underlying logic to the disparity. Ultimately, I wish that disparity never existed, because maybe then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

 

I think you might be overselling the "logic" behind these slight condition/price differences. I once cracked a 9.2 TTA 93, resubbed it, and it got a 9.6. It went from $400 book to $3000 book. No bends pressed out, no slight differences in condition, nothing different other than the label. Ask anyone outside of the high grade collecting game if that's sane.

 

The logic behind all of this goes out the window once you realize how fluid and arbitrary these slight grade differences are. The market reads them as absolutes, but after subbing hundreds and hundreds of books over the course of a decade it just doesn't pass muster. It's not always the luck of the draw, but it's often enough to make the insane multiples paid laughable.

 

It's crazy isn't it?

 

To me, the price curve should have always reflected diminishing returns after say 9.0, especially given the subjectivity involved above 9.4 or so.

 

Instead, it's exponential.

[kav]

Are we collecting books or the idea of how a book has been handled? Should it be downgraded because it's been in the bathroom? What if a serial killer owned it?

[BarryAllen]

Pressing isn't restoration because CGC (and other grading companies) says its not. They are the grading experts as recognized by the hobby and they make the rules. It really is as simple as that.

 

You want pressing to be restoration, convince them otherwise.

 

For 30-odd years, the industry bible (Overstreet) included pressing in their list of restorative processes.

 

They only changed their wording in around 2006 in the face of pressure from CGC and dealers who had a vested interest in the turnabout.

 

And CGC don't make THE rules. They make THEIR rules and they have taken the convenient route to discount pressing as restoration due to an inability to detect it with 100% accuracy.

 

You may very well be correct about Overstreet, but that too is immaterial. Using semantics of "THE" or "THEIR" in reference to the rules doesn't change the simple fact that grading company standards are what the industry uses to judge restoration. If that wasn't the case, this argument (in this very thread) would't exist.

 

How, why, when or whatever about the detection process or the restoration itself is also immaterial. All of the arguments against pressing are only good if someone can convince the "powers that be" to change their policy. Yes, it may be complicated and include technology or an approach that doesn't exist en masse yet (or something else) - but it doesn't change the simple truth...

 

Pressing is not restoration because the grading companies at current say so.

 

If you don't like it, take it up with them.

 

You are speaking from the position of the digital world, mainly driven by younger collectors (and dealers). In the digital world, the 'powers that be' look to be CGC.

 

But there is a much larger component of people who have been collecting since before the digital / CGC / encapsulation world every came to be, and they also have a set of standards that often contradict what CGC wants.

 

It's just that as CGC (and pressing) have grown in popularity they have quieted out those older voices over the years. It's change.

 

I agree with F_T that it didn't used to be this way. It was about 10 years ago that the 'new paradigm' began to form and has grown into being the new norm or the 'popular view' ever since.

 

As far as 'hate' from either side, 10 years ago this was a pretty heated topic from both sides. People would argue, fight, threaten each other, get strikes, troll each other. Sides were made and people became entrenched. At one point it was a constant war zone on here. Thankfully things have cooled.

 

I don't have any hate. I personally do feel for those who only want unpressed books as they are free to collect what they like, but the reality is that if a book grades out as a 9.2 unpressed, and it comes to market and people know it's going to grade as a 9.4/9.6 after pressing, then that book is going to sell for more than 9.2 money.

 

Part of changes in rules and new paradigms is that everyone needs to adapt to them.

 

For example, if you see a book go for a record price on GPA, and it sits as an outlier, you need to factor in that it could be a potentially upgradeable book and not an actual new 'GPA high' for that grade. That particular sale should not be setting a trend for lesser copies. And yet I've seen that multiple times where a book I feel has a shot at upgrade (or even worse, I know it actually has upgraded and come back to market) sell for a new all time high, and the general public takes that new high as an actual high for the grade and it starts a new price movement.

 

Another facet of adapting to the new paradigm is if collectors want to win unpressed books at auction, since it will likely sell at a premium, they may have to adjust their spending to pay the 'unpressed premium' to own that particular book. In my opinion, it should be no different than paying extra to own a Pedigree or a copy that is nicer than the assigned grade, or just a copy that looks too good for the grade. In both of those instances, those books sell for more money than the average copy.

 

Sure it's going to sound different and unorthodox compared to how things were done in the past, but so also was paying 5 times guide for Church copies back when they came out 40 years ago. And yet now it's become the norm that a Church copy (or something comparable) will generally fetch a multiple of whatever it's contemporary surrounding issues go for. It's become the new paradigm.

 

I would look at an unpressed bok the way I might look at a comic that comes from a desirable Pedigree but it's not readily apparent from the auction description that there is something special about the book. And yet, for those who do their homework, or know how to detect those hidden qualities, some bidders will recognize something special about the book. In this case, the item just happens to be a comic book that is likely going to press into the next assigned grade (or two - you get the picture).

 

If you find hidden value in it, and others do as well, it's going to draw the price of the item up but that is the way it's always been in comics. The nicer the book, the more people will drive the price up.

 

Sorry that was long winded but I hope it makes sense.

 

It makes sense. I think you are generalizing about people, typecasting them and honestly grouping people without any true data based reasoning to do so. Regardless, I cannot tell if you are disagreeing with me or just making a statement.

 

The argument is about how grading companies handle restoration and what is included and not. We aren't discussing raw book sales and the thousands of transactions that happen between thousands of people daily that are impossible to qualify or quantify the impact of pressing. The conversation, the source of the frustration on both sides, is about graded books in slabs.

 

The grading companies set the definition and therefore have the ruling on what is included as restoration or not. It doesn't matter what the history is or what any portion of the population thinks (which is all assumed). Sure it is novel to know the history of the situation and how the attitude has changed (or not), but it does not impact the current situation we are in. As the world stands today, pressing is not restoration because grading companies say so. People on here can argue whether or not restoration should include pressing - or not, but it changes nothing.

 

If someone has issues with pressing they should take it up with the grading companies. Not argue on here back and forth with others, they should provide a compelling point of view and submit it to the grading companies for consideration. If you want to change something you have to influence the decision makers.

 

It is really simple and everyone is making it out to be a choice or a point of view or a philosophy... It is a fact, because it is a decision that is made and published. Pressing is not restoration.

 

Incorrect.

 

CGC is not a regulatory body. It is simply a for-profit organisation that makes money from the stance that pressing isn't restoration.

 

Their opinion is that pressing isn't restoration doesn't make it so.

 

It is actually us, the buying public, who make that decision.

 

I get that you think you are making a compelling argument, but you aren't. The buying public isn't deciding anything other than what to purchase. The criteria to classify books are actually determined by those selling the comics. In this instance the sellers recognize grading companies as professional 3rd party experts to drive consistent standards in the market. If they don't use a grading company, they use other standards or make them up themselves (nothing governs or prevents this). I can sell a raw pressed book as unrestored or restored and both are not wrong. However if I choose to sell graded comics, I am required to sell them as their grading indicates or I may commit misrepresentation.

 

The argument isn't about pressing, it is about people's anger (or not) that grading companies do not consider pressing as restoration. That is a fact that is not up for debate and it frustrates people.

 

You can choose to not buy a graded book, but you cannot choose whether they consider pressing as restoration or not.

 

You've either missed the point, or have gone off track a bit.

 

I've simply stated my personal opinion, and backed it up with reasons.

 

CGC have a different opinion.

 

Neither of us is right or wrong because of our position, because neither of us in a regulatory position.

 

For there to be a definition (or one that matters) there has to be a transaction. Sellers set the terms of sale, including the definition and description of their merchandise. Many sellers use grading companies as a 3rd party standard to sell books just like some use Overstreet or make-up their own standards on raw books. When selling a slabbed book the details are well defined, when selling a raw book they are at the discretion of the seller.

 

My point is that as a collector, your position is meaningless. It only has relevance if you are selling a book and then you are obligated that your definition/description match the goods (huge levels of varying detail here). In the context of a graded book there are not multiple correct postions, there is the correct definition (as set by the grading company) or misrepresentation.

[HarveySwick]

@COI

 

Does the age of the book matter with your feelings about pressing? Your argument against pressing is obvious when the book is 50 years old, but what about when the book is a month old?

 

The modern collecting market is so crazy that it's 9.8 or bust. Do you feel as strongly against pressing a 9.6 with one NCB spine tic into a 9.8?

 

I'm enjoying the discussion/perspectives in this thread.