What value should restored/conserved comics receive? 0

[VintageComics]

Personally, an expertly restored book where paper has been deacidified, spines reinforced, tears sealed, etc., one could even argue is now in a better state than a non-restored copy with soiling, tears, rolls, etc.

 

This is a very good point.

 

Often we take a short sighted view to restored books, mainly because a lot of the books that we want can be easily obtained in unrestored shape.

 

Books that have been restored/conserved (deacidified, rehumidified etc) may end up outlasting their unrestored counterparts.

 

This is definitely the case with some comic books that are old and rare just as it is the case with old documents and literature.

 

R.

 

 

Creating our very own "What If?" scenario, I wonder what would have been the case with restored books/values if from the very start CGC gave a PLOD only to those books that were not professionally restored, or had trimming? I.e. professional restored books still received a blue label with the details of the restoration/conservation undertaken.

 

I've been arguing this for a very long time. I'd love for restored books to be in a blue label holder with resto clearly outlined as it is now and maybe one grade as being the apparent grade (left side) and another grade representing degree of restoration (right side).

[gpanalysis]

I'm seriously considering buying a 5.0-ish AF 15 to have extensively restored to pretty-ish, so no disdain here.

 

I loves me my slightly restored books. 5 and 6 figure eye appeal and feel for a fraction of the price.

 

(thumbs u

(thumbs u

 

[Cimm]

If the book is restored by a professional restoration/conservation expert, then I would consider them equal value. However, our hobby places a stigma on such books and hence the market adjusts accordingly. Personally, an expertly restored book where paper has been deacidified, spines reinforced, tears sealed, etc., one could even argue is now in a better state than a non-restored copy with soiling, tears, rolls, etc.

 

A non-professional restored book? I wouldn't touch it in a million years.

 

I feel the only type of "bad" restoration is the kind that removes anything from the book i.e. trimming.

 

This is pretty much my own feeling... The only thing I would add is that the extensiveness of the restoration should play a part in determining final value, i.e.

 

Professional, slight = 90/100% of Universal

Professional, moderate = 60/90% of Universal

Professional, extensive = 40/60% of Universal

Amateur, slight = 40/80% of Universal

Amateur, moderate = 30/40% of Universal

Amateur, extensive = 10/30% of Universal

 

And then there are types of restoration to factor in, like, tear seals (+5%), colour touch(-10%), deacidification (+10%), pieces added (-20%), etc.

 

The above numbers are straight out of my arse, so are subject to change, derision, and revision at any time... but, they are my precise feelings on the subject of valuation of restoration.

 

Here's an example...

 

Marvel Mystery Comics #9 CGC 9.2 Restored, Professional, Moderate

 

Overstreet Guide Value is 58,000

Moderate restoration....... 52,200

 

Restoration includes

tear seals (3).................. 60,900

colour touch................... 54,810

pieces added (2)............. 43,938

staples replaced............. 41,741

deacidification................ 45,916 as the final value

 

OK... there's a basic flaw in that math... my apologies! I had done it taking the percentage from the price above, which would give a different total depending on the order the restoration was listed in Here it is again, with the precentages being constant from the Moderate (P) mark...

 

Overstreet Guide Value is 58,000

Moderate restoration....... 52,200

 

Restoration includes

tear seals (3).................. 60,030

colour touch................... 54,810

pieces added (2)............. 33,930

staples replaced............. 31,320

deacidification................ 36,540 as the final value

[Cimm]

Personally, an expertly restored book where paper has been deacidified, spines reinforced, tears sealed, etc., one could even argue is now in a better state than a non-restored copy with soiling, tears, rolls, etc.

 

This is a very good point.

 

Often we take a short sighted view to restored books, mainly because a lot of the books that we want can be easily obtained in unrestored shape.

 

Books that have been restored/conserved (deacidified, rehumidified etc) may end up outlasting their unrestored counterparts.

 

This is definitely the case with some comic books that are old and rare just as it is the case with old documents and literature.

 

R.

 

 

Creating our very own "What If?" scenario, I wonder what would have been the case with restored books/values if from the very start CGC gave a PLOD only to those books that were not professionally restored, or had trimming? I.e. professional restored books still received a blue label with the details of the restoration/conservation undertaken.

 

I've been arguing this for a very long time. I'd love for restored books to be in a blue label holder with resto clearly outlined as it is now and maybe one grade as being the apparent grade (left side) and another grade representing degree of restoration (right side).

 

Totally agree, as this would give a fairer representation of the book. As it is now... there is rampant slabism dependent solely upon the colour of the label

[Trey Cannon]

My position is this if you are happy with the book if its restored then it doesn't matter. I had an oppourtunity to buy a AF #15 CGC 3.0 Blue label for 4,000 The book was not a very nice looking copy. At the same time I was offered a AF #15 CGC 6.5 SA for $3200. This book had slight amatuer restoration which included micro trimming on top and right corners and two very tiny clor touches which I could not see in the upper left hand corner. To me the booked looked much better than the 3.0 Blue so I bought the restored book. This September I took the restored 6.5 to Pittsburgh and had Stan Lee sign it So now I have a Yellow(Purple) Signature Series 6.5 that looks very nice. The restoration is so small that it doesn't bother me and I am happy with the book and probably the book is worth more than the orginal $3200 I bought it for now.

 

[skypinkblu]

Great responses so far. I should have stated professional restoration since I think amateur work should be prevented. So i am gathering that the conservation techniques are more accepted than the cosmetic. So if someone takes an AF #15 6.0 and professionally restores it to a 9.4, should it now be worth less than it was as an unrestored 6.0? Why?

 

I have some very old, really rare books, whose original owners actual thought they were toys...imagine that? So...they color touched, put a drop of glue on the book...it was not done to increase the value, just to "restore" the beauty of the book for the owner.

 

I actually think that stuff is charming and part of the history of the book. Some of the books I have had the covers taken off for some microfilm type project in the 50's...whatever was used before photocopies were available...the owner then put the covers back on, he used tape, sometimes some glue, on a few I think he restapled them. He died before any were sold, and his wife has sold some. On a few pieces of the cover were missing, he added a few pieces, he was a pretty good artist and I doubt he ever thought these would be sold for more than the cover price;).

 

. On newer books, where someone wanted to hide a defect so they could sell it, and it's done by an amateur, I would agree, but not all amateur restoration was done to make the book more saleable. I color touched many a book when I was a kid...just happened to have a new box of markers handy, so I'd improve my beloved comics...

[kc120us]

If the book is restored by a professional restoration/conservation expert, then I would consider them equal value. However, our hobby places a stigma on such books and hence the market adjusts accordingly. Personally, an expertly restored book where paper has been deacidified, spines reinforced, tears sealed, etc., one could even argue is now in a better state than a non-restored copy with soiling, tears, rolls, etc.

 

A non-professional restored book? I wouldn't touch it in a million years.

 

I feel the only type of "bad" restoration is the kind that removes anything from the book i.e. trimming.

 

This is pretty much my own feeling... The only thing I would add is that the extensiveness of the restoration should play a part in determining final value, i.e.

 

Professional, slight = 90/100% of Universal

Professional, moderate = 60/90% of Universal

Professional, extensive = 40/60% of Universal

Amateur, slight = 40/80% of Universal

Amateur, moderate = 30/40% of Universal

Amateur, extensive = 10/30% of Universal

 

And then there are types of restoration to factor in, like, tear seals (+5%), colour touch(-10%), deacidification (+10%), pieces added (-20%), etc.

 

The above numbers are straight out of my arse, so are subject to change, derision, and revision at any time... but, they are my precise feelings on the subject of valuation of restoration.

 

Here's an example...

 

Marvel Mystery Comics #9 CGC 9.2 Restored, Professional, Moderate

 

Overstreet Guide Value is 58,000

Moderate restoration....... 52,200

 

Restoration includes

tear seals (3).................. 60,900

colour touch................... 54,810

pieces added (2)............. 43,938

staples replaced............. 41,741

deacidification................ 45,916 as the final value

 

Great post, Cimm. (thumbs u

[kc120us]

I'm seriously considering buying a 5.0-ish AF 15 to have extensively restored to pretty-ish, so no disdain here.

 

(thumbs u

[kc120us]

Great responses so far. I should have stated professional restoration since I think amateur work should be prevented. So i am gathering that the conservation techniques are more accepted than the cosmetic. So if someone takes an AF #15 6.0 and professionally restores it to a 9.4, should it now be worth less than it was as an unrestored 6.0? Why?

 

In the current climate I think the answer to this question is Yes.

Jul 2008 AF#15 9.6 (PLOD slight pro) $50k

Oct 2008 AF#15 8.5 (Blue) $119k

 

 

Now that makes me shake my head a little. Since it was SP restoration, the difference between that book and an unrestored version could be one tear seal or a few dots of CT on an otherwise untouched book. An unrestored 9.6 AF #15 is worth what? $500k? So the same book with a few dots of CT is worth 10% of that. I wonder if/when people come to their senses will the owners of these books be sitting on potential gold mines*.

 

 

*Yes, I know the crash is coming and all of this is moot but bear with me.

 

I think the reason the 9.6 PLOD sold for $50K is because someone valued it at what an 8.0 copy (or so) would have sold for at the time.

 

What I'm seeing is that savvy bidders will pay determine market price for a restored book by theoretically "unrestoring" the book to try and determine what the book would have graded before resto and then bid according they believe the previously unrestored grade was.

 

That is why the more the resto, the lower the price...because the book would have graded lower to start with before the resto was done.

 

I don't think this will ever change again.

 

What you will see is restored books start to climb as the consumer becomes more educated about resto but I don't think you'll see restored books ever catch up to unrestored books the way they used to be.

 

R.

If it was an 8.0, then that makes more sense. Sounds like the resto was maybe pushing the boundary between slight and moderate.

[kc120us]

Personally, an expertly restored book where paper has been deacidified, spines reinforced, tears sealed, etc., one could even argue is now in a better state than a non-restored copy with soiling, tears, rolls, etc.

 

This is a very good point.

 

Often we take a short sighted view to restored books, mainly because a lot of the books that we want can be easily obtained in unrestored shape.

 

Books that have been restored/conserved (deacidified, rehumidified etc) may end up outlasting their unrestored counterparts.

 

This is definitely the case with some comic books that are old and rare just as it is the case with old documents and literature.

 

R.

 

 

Creating our very own "What If?" scenario, I wonder what would have been the case with restored books/values if from the very start CGC gave a PLOD only to those books that were not professionally restored, or had trimming? I.e. professional restored books still received a blue label with the details of the restoration/conservation undertaken.

 

I've been arguing this for a very long time. I'd love for restored books to be in a blue label holder with resto clearly outlined as it is now and maybe one grade as being the apparent grade (left side) and another grade representing degree of restoration (right side).

 

+1

[kc120us]

Great responses so far. I should have stated professional restoration since I think amateur work should be prevented. So i am gathering that the conservation techniques are more accepted than the cosmetic. So if someone takes an AF #15 6.0 and professionally restores it to a 9.4, should it now be worth less than it was as an unrestored 6.0? Why?

 

I have some very old, really rare books, whose original owners actual thought they were toys...imagine that? So...they color touched, put a drop of glue on the book...it was not done to increase the value, just to "restore" the beauty of the book for the owner.

 

I actually think that stuff is charming and part of the history of the book. Some of the books I have had the covers taken off for some microfilm type project in the 50's...whatever was used before photocopies were available...the owner then put the covers back on, he used tape, sometimes some glue, on a few I think he restapled them. He died before any were sold, and his wife has sold some. On a few pieces of the cover were missing, he added a few pieces, he was a pretty good artist and I doubt he ever thought these would be sold for more than the cover price;).

 

. On newer books, where someone wanted to hide a defect so they could sell it, and it's done by an amateur, I would agree, but not all amateur restoration was done to make the book more saleable. I color touched many a book when I was a kid...just happened to have a new box of markers handy, so I'd improve my beloved comics...

 

Very true, Shar. I would bet most of the original owners of the great GA and SA pedigrees weren't saving them because they thought the books would be worth a fortune someday.

[DrWatson]

I can see why it would be beneficial to champion restored books in blue labels. The resale potential, or profit margin, for anyone with a collection of restored books would definitely increase.

[Tomega]

Does anybody know if restored comics receive less points in the registry? I am just curious to see how CGC views them.

[awe4one]

I can see why it would be beneficial to champion restored books in blue labels. The resale potential, or profit margin, for anyone with a collection of restored books would definitely increase.

 

Sure. That's always been the intent...

 

The PLOD for better or worse is a flag for those who aren't enamored with restored books. And rightly so in my opinion...

 

Jim

[Sal]

again, i think that conservation practices, such as reinforcement, staple cleaning and tear seals should go in a blue (conserved) label, while trimming, married pages, pieces added, cleaning, staple replacement, glue and colour touch should stay in the purple.

 

or we can use Cimm's excellent example above - the idea of using a system based on the type of resto to determine FMV is interesting to me - and keep Pro Resto in blue labels with Amateur in purple...

 

the argument that books in purple labels being stigmatised makes sense to me. but maybe that's a good thing. let's stigmatise certain types of restoration and adopt a proper response to conservation

[awe4one]

again, i think that conservation practices, such as reinforcement, staple cleaning and tear seals should go in a blue (conserved) label, while trimming, married pages, pieces added, cleaning, staple replacement, glue and colour touch should stay in the purple.

 

or we can use Cimm's excellent example above - the idea of using a system based on the type of resto to determine FMV is interesting to me - and keep Pro Resto in blue labels with Amateur in purple...

 

the argument that books in purple labels being stigmatised makes sense to me. but maybe that's a good thing. let's stigmatise certain types of restoration and adopt a proper response to conservation

 

But why? It's the buyer to determine if the resto done is one which he/she is comfortable with. Resto is resto...it's up to the buyer to determine whether it's amenable to them. To confuse the issue with different labels isn't doing the greater collecting community any favors...

 

Jim

[Newerthannew]

Hi All:

 

Saw this:

If the book is restored by a professional restoration/conservation expert, then I would consider them equal value. However, our hobby places a stigma on such books and hence the market adjusts accordingly. Personally, an expertly restored book where paper has been deacidified, spines reinforced, tears sealed, etc., one could even argue is now in a better state than a non-restored copy with soiling, tears, rolls, etc.

 

A non-professional restored book? I wouldn't touch it in a million years.

 

I feel the only type of "bad" restoration is the kind that removes anything from the book i.e. trimming.

 

This is pretty much my own feeling... The only thing I would add is that the extensiveness of the restoration should play a part in determining final value, i.e.

 

Professional, slight = 90/100% of Universal

Professional, moderate = 60/90% of Universal

Professional, extensive = 40/60% of Universal

Amateur, slight = 40/80% of Universal

Amateur, moderate = 30/40% of Universal

Amateur, extensive = 10/30% of Universal

 

And then there are types of restoration to factor in, like, tear seals (+5%), colour touch(-10%), deacidification (+10%), pieces added (-20%), etc.

 

The above numbers are straight out of my arse, so are subject to change, derision, and revision at any time... but, they are my precise feelings on the subject of valuation of restoration.

 

Here's an example...

 

Marvel Mystery Comics #9 CGC 9.2 Restored, Professional, Moderate

 

Overstreet Guide Value is 58,000

Moderate restoration....... 52,200

 

Restoration includes

tear seals (3).................. 60,900

colour touch................... 54,810

pieces added (2)............. 43,938

staples replaced............. 41,741

deacidification................ 45,916 as the final value

 

OK... there's a basic flaw in that math... my apologies! I had done it taking the percentage from the price above, which would give a different total depending on the order the restoration was listed in Here it is again, with the precentages being constant from the Moderate (P) mark...

 

Overstreet Guide Value is 58,000

Moderate restoration....... 52,200

 

Restoration includes

tear seals (3).................. 60,030

colour touch................... 54,810

pieces added (2)............. 33,930

staples replaced............. 31,320

deacidification................ 36,540 as the final value

 

Back in 2004, I posted the following (portions of which are no longer relevant but since the topic is coming around again):

 

 

Hi all

 

Been reading this (and other threads) for awhile now. I'm glad to see someone, other than myself, raise this point about the PLOD and a new system for resto. Funny thing is, as Poverty knows (and probably FF), I worked out a new system, LAST YEAR, that grades restoration point by point, creating a separate numerical value for restored books.

 

I conducted a series of surveys and from the responses I received from the dealers I know and collectors I trust, I devised a rating system. Having tested it on the work that my clients have submitted to me, I know it works and is fairly accurate when applied to values and I believe that it would revolutionize the whole restoration marketplace.

 

When I use my restoration grading system, the end result generates a percentage of alteration (and thus, a percentage of originality) and value is based on that percentage (call it a multiplier). If anyone is curious, the link is here:

 

www.restorationeducation.com/restoration_grading_system.htm

 

It is my hope that restored books can be viewed in their proper context and that conservation will be sought out and restoration understood and accepted.

 

Tracey Heft

www.eclipsepaper.com

www.restorationeducation.com

www.solsticecomics.com

 

 

 

[Sal]

again, i think that conservation practices, such as reinforcement, staple cleaning and tear seals should go in a blue (conserved) label, while trimming, married pages, pieces added, cleaning, staple replacement, glue and colour touch should stay in the purple.

 

or we can use Cimm's excellent example above - the idea of using a system based on the type of resto to determine FMV is interesting to me - and keep Pro Resto in blue labels with Amateur in purple...

 

the argument that books in purple labels being stigmatised makes sense to me. but maybe that's a good thing. let's stigmatise certain types of restoration and adopt a proper response to conservation

 

But why? It's the buyer to determine if the resto done is one which he/she is comfortable with. Resto is resto...it's up to the buyer to determine whether it's amenable to them. To confuse the issue with different labels isn't doing the greater collecting community any favors...

 

Jim

 

"Resto is resto."

 

Maybe.

 

But resto is not necessarily conservation. I think there's a difference between the two, and think that making that differentiation on the label makes some sense

[awe4one]

again, i think that conservation practices, such as reinforcement, staple cleaning and tear seals should go in a blue (conserved) label, while trimming, married pages, pieces added, cleaning, staple replacement, glue and colour touch should stay in the purple.

 

or we can use Cimm's excellent example above - the idea of using a system based on the type of resto to determine FMV is interesting to me - and keep Pro Resto in blue labels with Amateur in purple...

 

the argument that books in purple labels being stigmatised makes sense to me. but maybe that's a good thing. let's stigmatise certain types of restoration and adopt a proper response to conservation

 

But why? It's the buyer to determine if the resto done is one which he/she is comfortable with. Resto is resto...it's up to the buyer to determine whether it's amenable to them. To confuse the issue with different labels isn't doing the greater collecting community any favors...

 

Jim

 

"Resto is resto."

 

Maybe.

 

But resto is not necessarily conservation. I think there's a difference between the two, and think that making that differentiation on the label makes some sense

 

But you can't make it a Blue "unrestored" label. It would have to be a different color...

 

And you could argue that making different categories of restoration based on intent is murkying ( is that even a word?) the action...

 

Jim

[DrWatson]

I can see why it would be beneficial to champion restored books in blue labels. The resale potential, or profit margin, for anyone with a collection of restored books would definitely increase.

 

Sure. That's always been the intent...

 

The PLOD for better or worse is a flag for those who aren't enamored with restored books. And rightly so in my opinion...

 

Jim

Good Lord, we agree.