What value should restored/conserved comics receive? 0

[VintageComics]

again, i think that conservation practices, such as reinforcement, staple cleaning and tear seals should go in a blue (conserved) label, while trimming, married pages, pieces added, cleaning, staple replacement, glue and colour touch should stay in the purple.

 

or we can use Cimm's excellent example above - the idea of using a system based on the type of resto to determine FMV is interesting to me - and keep Pro Resto in blue labels with Amateur in purple...

 

the argument that books in purple labels being stigmatised makes sense to me. but maybe that's a good thing. let's stigmatise certain types of restoration and adopt a proper response to conservation

 

But why? It's the buyer to determine if the resto done is one which he/she is comfortable with. Resto is resto...it's up to the buyer to determine whether it's amenable to them. To confuse the issue with different labels isn't doing the greater collecting community any favors...

 

Jim

 

"Resto is resto."

 

Maybe.

 

But resto is not necessarily conservation. I think there's a difference between the two, and think that making that differentiation on the label makes some sense

 

But you can't make it a Blue "unrestored" label. It would have to be a different color...

 

And you could argue that making different categories of restoration based on intent is murkying ( is that even a word?) the action...

 

Jim

 

Jim, I think the perception that it is "murkying" the distinction is simply because after 10 years we've been programmed to expect a purple label on a restored book.

 

Again, the back lash to accepting restored books seems to have happened due to several factors, one being the distinction in label colors, the other being the fact that many people didn't realize they had restored books in their possessions...and the purple CGC labels making them aware of that after submission.

 

If CGC had used a blue label from the beginning with plenty of info on the label I don't know if we would have seen this phenomena to the same extent.

 

I'm pretty sure that if they had used a blue label from the beginning for all books people would have quickly learned how to read the labels and understand them. It's just a learned response that purple means "bad" and collectors in the same way could have learned to recognize restored books with identification on a blue label holder.

 

It's almost Pavlovian. People (as buyers I'm talking about now) see a purple label and many immediately think "Oh, too bad...that book could be worth so much more" or "what a shame, somebody ruined that book". I know I did until I got over that hurdle. I think that if restored books were not segregated the way they were when different colored labels came out, people would have realized that the majority of books that were properly restored are still fantastic books. At this point I think the majority still doesn't fully appreciate how much original material makes up a restored book. It's a freaking bargain compared to most unrestored copies.

 

It's been 10 years now and the average collector is maturing.

 

We're getting to the point where Joe Collector understands a little more about restorative (or conservative) work, but more importantly, many comics are become tougher to find and more expensive with each passing day.

 

Comics are transcending a hobby and are slowly become artifacts.

 

The fact that they are so much more expensive creates an automatic need to be able to distinguish percentage of work performed on a comic. The same way a book can and does differ between 8.0/8.5/9.0/9.2, so a restored book can also differ in amount of resto work performed.

 

Comics are fetching dollar amounts where that small difference in grade is necessary as if the differences weren't there the dollar swings between G/F/NM the way it used to be would equal 5 or 6 figures for some books.

 

In the same way, work done on restored books should be documented better for the same reason. So that people can make better informed decisions.

 

To me it should all be about giving the customer more info to make a better informed decision.

[Dale Roberts]

If the book is restored by a professional restoration/conservation expert, then I would consider them equal value. However, our hobby places a stigma on such books and hence the market adjusts accordingly. Personally, an expertly restored book where paper has been deacidified, spines reinforced, tears sealed, etc., one could even argue is now in a better state than a non-restored copy with soiling, tears, rolls, etc.

 

A non-professional restored book? I wouldn't touch it in a million years.

 

I feel the only type of "bad" restoration is the kind that removes anything from the book i.e. trimming.

 

This is pretty much my own feeling... The only thing I would add is that the extensiveness of the restoration should play a part in determining final value, i.e.

 

Professional, slight = 90/100% of Universal

Professional, moderate = 60/90% of Universal

Professional, extensive = 40/60% of Universal

Amateur, slight = 40/80% of Universal

Amateur, moderate = 30/40% of Universal

Amateur, extensive = 10/30% of Universal

 

And then there are types of restoration to factor in, like, tear seals (+5%), colour touch(-10%), deacidification (+10%), pieces added (-20%), etc.

 

The above numbers are straight out of my arse, so are subject to change, derision, and revision at any time... but, they are my precise feelings on the subject of valuation of restoration.

 

Here's an example...

 

Marvel Mystery Comics #9 CGC 9.2 Restored, Professional, Moderate

 

Overstreet Guide Value is 58,000

Moderate restoration....... 52,200

 

Restoration includes

tear seals (3).................. 60,900

colour touch................... 54,810

pieces added (2)............. 43,938

staples replaced............. 41,741

deacidification................ 45,916 as the final value

 

It is not my intention to ruffle feathers, but the percentages in this equation are ridiculous.

 

Here is the correct equation. A + B = value where

A = value of the book in original condition, before the restoration

B = cost of the restoration

 

In some cases, you might add just a bit (in the case of an extremely rare book, or superb eye appeal, etc)

 

 

Example -

Amazing Fantasy #15 graded at 2.5 prior to restoration, app 8.0 EP afterwards.

A = GPA 2.5 = $3600.00

B = cost of restoration = $500.00

value = $4200.00

 

If you look at GPA, this is very close to what the value actually is.

 

 

Restoration should rarely ever make the book worth more(probably only in the case of a book which grades less than Good), only make it easier to sell and increase the eye appeal.

 

In my opinion, Amateur restoration generally should be counted as defect. If someone color touches a black book with a black magic marker, the book should be downgraded. Amateur restoration has no cost and is done with materials that are generally not archival. There should be NO bump in value over original condition and in some case be downgraded.

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

 

Restoration should rarely ever make the book worth more(probably only in the case of a book which grades less than Good), only make it easier to sell and increase the eye appeal.

 

In my opinion, Amateur restoration generally should be counted as defect. If someone color touches a black book with a black magic marker, the book should be downgraded. Amateur restoration has no cost and is done with materials that are generally not archival. There should be NO bump in value over original condition and in some case be downgraded.

 

Dale these are great points.

 

People who know a little about resto will be able to "read between the lines" and figure out more or less what the restored books should be worth. The extra info is for people who are not familiar with them.

 

I think the extra info that everyone is talking about is not about inflating value to restored books as much as it is educating people about how much work is actually done to the books and then letting them decide what value there is in it.

[kc120us]

again, i think that conservation practices, such as reinforcement, staple cleaning and tear seals should go in a blue (conserved) label, while trimming, married pages, pieces added, cleaning, staple replacement, glue and colour touch should stay in the purple.

 

or we can use Cimm's excellent example above - the idea of using a system based on the type of resto to determine FMV is interesting to me - and keep Pro Resto in blue labels with Amateur in purple...

 

the argument that books in purple labels being stigmatised makes sense to me. but maybe that's a good thing. let's stigmatise certain types of restoration and adopt a proper response to conservation

I totally agree, Sal. Perhaps another hybrid label ala the SS restored label. I was thinking something along the lines of blue with a red stripe along the top with the title Conserved along the top and the work noted. I made blue the majority color since we should try to convey that the work done helps the book and is necessary for the long-term health of the book.

[kc120us]

Hi All:

 

Saw this:

If the book is restored by a professional restoration/conservation expert, then I would consider them equal value. However, our hobby places a stigma on such books and hence the market adjusts accordingly. Personally, an expertly restored book where paper has been deacidified, spines reinforced, tears sealed, etc., one could even argue is now in a better state than a non-restored copy with soiling, tears, rolls, etc.

 

A non-professional restored book? I wouldn't touch it in a million years.

 

I feel the only type of "bad" restoration is the kind that removes anything from the book i.e. trimming.

 

This is pretty much my own feeling... The only thing I would add is that the extensiveness of the restoration should play a part in determining final value, i.e.

 

Professional, slight = 90/100% of Universal

Professional, moderate = 60/90% of Universal

Professional, extensive = 40/60% of Universal

Amateur, slight = 40/80% of Universal

Amateur, moderate = 30/40% of Universal

Amateur, extensive = 10/30% of Universal

 

And then there are types of restoration to factor in, like, tear seals (+5%), colour touch(-10%), deacidification (+10%), pieces added (-20%), etc.

 

The above numbers are straight out of my arse, so are subject to change, derision, and revision at any time... but, they are my precise feelings on the subject of valuation of restoration.

 

Here's an example...

 

Marvel Mystery Comics #9 CGC 9.2 Restored, Professional, Moderate

 

Overstreet Guide Value is 58,000

Moderate restoration....... 52,200

 

Restoration includes

tear seals (3).................. 60,900

colour touch................... 54,810

pieces added (2)............. 43,938

staples replaced............. 41,741

deacidification................ 45,916 as the final value

 

OK... there's a basic flaw in that math... my apologies! I had done it taking the percentage from the price above, which would give a different total depending on the order the restoration was listed in Here it is again, with the precentages being constant from the Moderate (P) mark...

 

Overstreet Guide Value is 58,000

Moderate restoration....... 52,200

 

Restoration includes

tear seals (3).................. 60,030

colour touch................... 54,810

pieces added (2)............. 33,930

staples replaced............. 31,320

deacidification................ 36,540 as the final value

 

Back in 2004, I posted the following (portions of which are no longer relevant but since the topic is coming around again):

 

 

Hi all

 

Been reading this (and other threads) for awhile now. I'm glad to see someone, other than myself, raise this point about the PLOD and a new system for resto. Funny thing is, as Poverty knows (and probably FF), I worked out a new system, LAST YEAR, that grades restoration point by point, creating a separate numerical value for restored books.

 

I conducted a series of surveys and from the responses I received from the dealers I know and collectors I trust, I devised a rating system. Having tested it on the work that my clients have submitted to me, I know it works and is fairly accurate when applied to values and I believe that it would revolutionize the whole restoration marketplace.

 

When I use my restoration grading system, the end result generates a percentage of alteration (and thus, a percentage of originality) and value is based on that percentage (call it a multiplier). If anyone is curious, the link is here:

 

www.restorationeducation.com/restoration_grading_system.htm

 

It is my hope that restored books can be viewed in their proper context and that conservation will be sought out and restoration understood and accepted.

 

Tracey Heft

www.eclipsepaper.com

www.restorationeducation.com

www.solsticecomics.com

Very interesting , Tracey. Thanks for posting it.

[kc120us]

again, i think that conservation practices, such as reinforcement, staple cleaning and tear seals should go in a blue (conserved) label, while trimming, married pages, pieces added, cleaning, staple replacement, glue and colour touch should stay in the purple.

 

or we can use Cimm's excellent example above - the idea of using a system based on the type of resto to determine FMV is interesting to me - and keep Pro Resto in blue labels with Amateur in purple...

 

the argument that books in purple labels being stigmatised makes sense to me. but maybe that's a good thing. let's stigmatise certain types of restoration and adopt a proper response to conservation

 

But why? It's the buyer to determine if the resto done is one which he/she is comfortable with. Resto is resto...it's up to the buyer to determine whether it's amenable to them. To confuse the issue with different labels isn't doing the greater collecting community any favors...

 

Jim

 

"Resto is resto."

 

Maybe.

 

But resto is not necessarily conservation. I think there's a difference between the two, and think that making that differentiation on the label makes some sense

 

But you can't make it a Blue "unrestored" label. It would have to be a different color...

 

And you could argue that making different categories of restoration based on intent is murkying ( is that even a word?) the action...

 

Jim

 

Jim, I think the perception that it is "murkying" the distinction is simply because after 10 years we've been programmed to expect a purple label on a restored book.

 

Again, the back lash to accepting restored books seems to have happened due to several factors, one being the distinction in label colors, the other being the fact that many people didn't realize they had restored books in their possessions...and the purple CGC labels making them aware of that after submission.

 

If CGC had used a blue label from the beginning with plenty of info on the label I don't know if we would have seen this phenomena to the same extent.

 

I'm pretty sure that if they had used a blue label from the beginning for all books people would have quickly learned how to read the labels and understand them. It's just a learned response that purple means "bad" and collectors in the same way could have learned to recognize restored books with identification on a blue label holder.

 

It's almost Pavlovian. People (as buyers I'm talking about now) see a purple label and many immediately think "Oh, too bad...that book could be worth so much more" or "what a shame, somebody ruined that book". I know I did until I got over that hurdle. I think that if restored books were not segregated the way they were when different colored labels came out, people would have realized that the majority of books that were properly restored are still fantastic books. At this point I think the majority still doesn't fully appreciate how much original material makes up a restored book. It's a freaking bargain compared to most unrestored copies.

 

It's been 10 years now and the average collector is maturing.

 

We're getting to the point where Joe Collector understands a little more about restorative (or conservative) work, but more importantly, many comics are become tougher to find and more expensive with each passing day.

 

Comics are transcending a hobby and are slowly become artifacts.

 

The fact that they are so much more expensive creates an automatic need to be able to distinguish percentage of work performed on a comic. The same way a book can and does differ between 8.0/8.5/9.0/9.2, so a restored book can also differ in amount of resto work performed.

 

Comics are fetching dollar amounts where that small difference in grade is necessary as if the differences weren't there the dollar swings between G/F/NM the way it used to be would equal 5 or 6 figures for some books.

 

In the same way, work done on restored books should be documented better for the same reason. So that people can make better informed decisions.

 

To me it should all be about giving the customer more info to make a better informed decision.

 

(thumbs u

[kc120us]

Does anybody know if restored comics receive less points in the registry? I am just curious to see how CGC views them.

 

Yes, Tom. They do.

[kc120us]

I can see why it would be beneficial to champion restored books in blue labels. The resale potential, or profit margin, for anyone with a collection of restored books would definitely increase.

 

Sure. That's always been the intent...

 

The PLOD for better or worse is a flag for those who aren't enamored with restored books. And rightly so in my opinion...

 

Jim

 

But it is more than just a flag, Jim. It is a judgement. The book is judged even before it has its day in court. The CGC labels are meant to convey information. And ,as we see on these boards, not everyone agrees that resto deserves such condemnation. It should be up to the buyer to pronounce judgement.

[kc120us]

If the book is restored by a professional restoration/conservation expert, then I would consider them equal value. However, our hobby places a stigma on such books and hence the market adjusts accordingly. Personally, an expertly restored book where paper has been deacidified, spines reinforced, tears sealed, etc., one could even argue is now in a better state than a non-restored copy with soiling, tears, rolls, etc.

 

A non-professional restored book? I wouldn't touch it in a million years.

 

I feel the only type of "bad" restoration is the kind that removes anything from the book i.e. trimming.

 

This is pretty much my own feeling... The only thing I would add is that the extensiveness of the restoration should play a part in determining final value, i.e.

 

Professional, slight = 90/100% of Universal

Professional, moderate = 60/90% of Universal

Professional, extensive = 40/60% of Universal

Amateur, slight = 40/80% of Universal

Amateur, moderate = 30/40% of Universal

Amateur, extensive = 10/30% of Universal

 

And then there are types of restoration to factor in, like, tear seals (+5%), colour touch(-10%), deacidification (+10%), pieces added (-20%), etc.

 

The above numbers are straight out of my arse, so are subject to change, derision, and revision at any time... but, they are my precise feelings on the subject of valuation of restoration.

 

Here's an example...

 

Marvel Mystery Comics #9 CGC 9.2 Restored, Professional, Moderate

 

Overstreet Guide Value is 58,000

Moderate restoration....... 52,200

 

Restoration includes

tear seals (3).................. 60,900

colour touch................... 54,810

pieces added (2)............. 43,938

staples replaced............. 41,741

deacidification................ 45,916 as the final value

 

It is not my intention to ruffle feathers, but the percentages in this equation are ridiculous.

 

Here is the correct equation. A + B = value where

A = value of the book in original condition, before the restoration

B = cost of the restoration

 

In some cases, you might add just a bit (in the case of an extremely rare book, or superb eye appeal, etc)

 

 

Example -

Amazing Fantasy #15 graded at 2.5 prior to restoration, app 8.0 EP afterwards.

A = GPA 2.5 = $3600.00

B = cost of restoration = $500.00

value = $4200.00

 

If you look at GPA, this is very close to what the value actually is.

 

 

Restoration should rarely ever make the book worth more(probably only in the case of a book which grades less than Good), only make it easier to sell and increase the eye appeal.

 

In my opinion, Amateur restoration generally should be counted as defect. If someone color touches a black book with a black magic marker, the book should be downgraded. Amateur restoration has no cost and is done with materials that are generally not archival. There should be NO bump in value over original condition and in some case be downgraded.

 

Nice points, Dale.

[CycloneComics]

I've been arguing this for a very long time. I'd love for restored books to be in a blue label holder with resto clearly outlined as it is now and maybe one grade as being the apparent grade (left side) and another grade representing degree of restoration (right side).

 

NO NO NO NO NO leave them in the Purple label until I finish buying the books I want/need at a fraction of the cost of the blue labeled books.Once those nice Golden age blue labeled books are priced out of range of the average Joe , then they will take a second look at books with minor resto and hopefully it will be too late.Then I can say Purple wasn't so bad.

[Mr. 10%]

Man - the silence lies pretty heavily over this thread. To bad: it is really an interesting subject to bring up. Perhaps kc120us you are half a decade too early on this one. Eventually the tides will turn ...

 

 

[3319comics]

I didnt want to read all the pages before this cause, well frankly lack of pictures and too many words.

So I just am wondering, if alot of people are taking care of books and bagging boarding them more will this effect the value of them in the long run? Im saying that if before comic collecting was big , there was no mylites etc to be used and people just had them in boxs etc. Will having more people in the hobby, especially treating every book like its worth a million dollars and encapsulating or bagging mess up the values in the long run do to the quanty out there

[James D. Vance]

I think we should ,first of all, dismiss the occasional argument that any restoration or conservation  is terrible, or even bad. In grading there are degrees of everything., whether restored, conserved, or unrestored.  If I have a 4.0 unrestored blue label with tape or color touches, still slabbed unrestored ,this clearly shouldn't be better, or more valuable than a 4.0 professionally conserved, no aesthetic improvements, no tape, and in a better state of preservation by far. There are many levels of destruction and preservation, and in grading ,all things need an open mind. A respected hobby needs discretion, not discrimination, any judgemental immaturity needs to give way to simple open minded evaluation before this hobby finds the stability it deserves.

Edited August 23, 2020 by James D. Vance
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