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How in the world did this go unnoticed???

Started by Guardian Comics,

1,945 posts in this topic

MrBedrock

MrBedrock

Posted
Posted
Nice try, Bob. But, first, that isn't "my business". I'm an investor who suffers like everybody else when all the banks, companies, ratings agencies, etc. who are supposed to be helping me, their customer, fail to do their jobs or abuse their positions.

 

Second of all, all of those activities you mentioned ARE, indeed, deplorable. That's why Bernie Madoff, Bernie Ebbers, Jeff Skilling, etc. are in JAIL. That's why Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken did HARD TIME. That's why Sandy Weill got booted from Citigroup and is OUT OF A JOB. That's why all those Wall Street banks paid millions (billions?) of dollars of fines for their blatant conflicts of interest in the late 1990s and early 2000s. That's why all these bank execs keep getting dragged up to Capitol Hill to testify about their business activities leading up to the financial meltdown of 2008. They all got what they deserved in the end.

 

Anyway, it's all just classic misdirection yet again. Just because there are some bad apples in the financial world and other industries doesn't justify the lot of you steamrolling every book in your path and laying waste to the historical integrity of comics. Nobody has yet responded to my question of how can a book that has been artificially manipulated to a higher grade can be considered the equal to a book that was cherry picked off the stands and meticulously preserved for decades by its owner(s). (shrug)

 

I still own hundreds of slabs, though I have sold off a good chunk of my modest collection. I still own many thousands of raw books. As some of you know, I am very active in the original art side of the hobby. And, I continue to buy loads of TPBs, hardcovers and digital comics every month and was continuing to actively buy raw books up until just a year or two ago. I attend conventions, hang out regularly with many Board members and participate almost daily on these Boards. I just no longer buy slabbed high grade - that part of the hobby is forever dead to me now.

 

It doesn't matter if this house of cards eventually comes tumbling down - the damage has been done. It was never enough to "just disclose". Manipulating books has a permanent effect on the rest of collectors and every collector that follows down the line. I wonder if the future Brulatos and Schmells of the world will feel as favorably about pressing as their predecessors. Indeed, after this crack-press-resub game eventually and inevitably implodes upon itself, why would future generations of collectors, with no seat on the current gravy train, even think that it was ever a good idea to pancake all those books that were already beautiful and well-preserved.

 

I'm sure this post will be just as derided by many as my last one. But, judging from the e-mails, PMs and conversations I have with many collectors, both here on the Boards and those who are not, I know that I am far from alone in my feelings about this matter.

I don't want to come off as deriding your position. And I think you bring up some valid points. But (you knew there would be a but) I have a big problem with one thing.

You have stated over and over that, due to "manipulation", you have no desire to purchase high grade comics. You also state that "manipulation" will cause the market to crash. So basically your problem with "manipulation" is its effect on prices and by extension its effect on your potential investment. And that is the part of this whole argument that bothers me. Pressers are called greedy time and again. Obviously money is a motivation for the endeavor. But anti-pressers seem to be motivated by the same greed. If their books are no longer the best, the highest graded, the most valuable then, by golly, they are going to take their ball and go home. And if they can't buy the best without some self-induced stigma attached then they want to take no part in the enjoyment of the books themselves. If that is your position then that is your choice. But it is a position that totally disregards any love for the books themselves other than their monetary value. And it is a position that I can't comprehend.

I respect you for speaking out about the problems you see in the hobby. But I have a problem with your equating those problems with greed, when it appears that your fears of losing money are the reason you no longer want to participate.

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DrWatson

DrWatson

Posted
Posted
If I owned say an original and very famous Renoir painting and I was an extremely famous and legendary figure in the world, let's say I somehow was murdered in front of this painting. Is the resulting painting (now splattered with blood) worth more now or should it be cleaned? Because it is now of quasi-historical value, should it be kept in this current state?

That's a lot of "what ifs" to swallow to get to that point, buddy. :baiting:

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MrBedrock

MrBedrock

Posted
Posted
I'll visit you when you get your face lift (not before about 20 years I hope;);) You'll still be Richard!

 

I won't think you NEED a facelift, because to me you will still be the same beautiful person you are now...

 

But I'll understand;) [/color]

Will you visit me if I get butt implants? :foryou:

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DrWatson

DrWatson

Posted
Posted
Nice try, Bob. But, first, that isn't "my business". I'm an investor who suffers like everybody else when all the banks, companies, ratings agencies, etc. who are supposed to be helping me, their customer, fail to do their jobs or abuse their positions.

 

Second of all, all of those activities you mentioned ARE, indeed, deplorable. That's why Bernie Madoff, Bernie Ebbers, Jeff Skilling, etc. are in JAIL. That's why Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken did HARD TIME. That's why Sandy Weill got booted from Citigroup and is OUT OF A JOB. That's why all those Wall Street banks paid millions (billions?) of dollars of fines for their blatant conflicts of interest in the late 1990s and early 2000s. That's why all these bank execs keep getting dragged up to Capitol Hill to testify about their business activities leading up to the financial meltdown of 2008. They all got what they deserved in the end.

 

Anyway, it's all just classic misdirection yet again. Just because there are some bad apples in the financial world and other industries doesn't justify the lot of you steamrolling every book in your path and laying waste to the historical integrity of comics. Nobody has yet responded to my question of how can a book that has been artificially manipulated to a higher grade can be considered the equal to a book that was cherry picked off the stands and meticulously preserved for decades by its owner(s). (shrug)

 

I still own hundreds of slabs, though I have sold off a good chunk of my modest collection. I still own many thousands of raw books. As some of you know, I am very active in the original art side of the hobby. And, I continue to buy loads of TPBs, hardcovers and digital comics every month and was continuing to actively buy raw books up until just a year or two ago. I attend conventions, hang out regularly with many Board members and participate almost daily on these Boards. I just no longer buy slabbed high grade - that part of the hobby is forever dead to me now.

 

It doesn't matter if this house of cards eventually comes tumbling down - the damage has been done. It was never enough to "just disclose". Manipulating books has a permanent effect on the rest of collectors and every collector that follows down the line. I wonder if the future Brulatos and Schmells of the world will feel as favorably about pressing as their predecessors. Indeed, after this crack-press-resub game eventually and inevitably implodes upon itself, why would future generations of collectors, with no seat on the current gravy train, even think that it was ever a good idea to pancake all those books that were already beautiful and well-preserved.

 

I'm sure this post will be just as derided by many as my last one. But, judging from the e-mails, PMs and conversations I have with many collectors, both here on the Boards and those who are not, I know that I am far from alone in my feelings about this matter.

I don't want to come off as deriding your position. And I think you bring up some valid points. But (you knew there would be a but) I have a big problem with one thing.

You have stated over and over that, due to "manipulation", you have no desire to purchase high grade comics. You also state that "manipulation" will cause the market to crash. So basically your problem with "manipulation" is its effect on prices and by extension its effect on your potential investment. And that is the part of this whole argument that bothers me. Pressers are called greedy time and again. Obviously money is a motivation for the endeavor. But anti-pressers seem to be motivated by the same greed. If their books are no longer the best, the highest graded, the most valuable then, by golly, they are going to take their ball and go home. And if they can't buy the best without some self-induced stigma attached then they want to take no part in the enjoyment of the books themselves. If that is your position then that is your choice. But it is a position that totally disregards any love for the books themselves other than their monetary value. And it is a position that I can't comprehend.

I respect you for speaking out about the problems you see in the hobby. But I have a problem with your equating those problems with greed, when it appears that your fears of losing money are the reason you no longer want to participate.

Wow, we were just having that same discussion point per point via PM earlier today. (worship)

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Mr.Diggler

Mr.Diggler

Posted
Posted
I'll visit you when you get your face lift (not before about 20 years I hope;);) You'll still be Richard!

 

I won't think you NEED a facelift, because to me you will still be the same beautiful person you are now...

 

But I'll understand;) [/color]

Will you visit me if I get butt implants? :foryou:

hm

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Bosco685

Bosco685

Posted
Posted
But it is a position that totally disregards any love for the books themselves other than their monetary value. And it is a position that I can't comprehend.

Some have their personal books pressed not for resale, but for love of the books and making up for mishandling over the years. I have to agree it is not always about flipping a book or maximizing their buck.

 

Especially if a prized OO book was bent during house moves and the person always felt torn over it. Then a simple pressing to fix the mistake of the mover hopefully resolves the situation. Putting it in a CGC case only adds to protecting that prized collectible.

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greggy

greggy

Posted
Posted
I'll visit you when you get your face lift (not before about 20 years I hope;);) You'll still be Richard!

 

I won't think you NEED a facelift, because to me you will still be the same beautiful person you are now...

 

But I'll understand;) [/color]

Will you visit me if I get butt implants? :foryou:

I'll test them out for you.

 

xoxo

 

greggy :blush:

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DrWatson

DrWatson

Posted
Posted
I'll visit you when you get your face lift (not before about 20 years I hope;);) You'll still be Richard!

 

I won't think you NEED a facelift, because to me you will still be the same beautiful person you are now...

 

But I'll understand;) [/color]

Will you visit me if I get butt implants? :foryou:

hm

You don't need butt implants. You're a big enough azz as it is now. :baiting:

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DarkKnightReturns

DarkKnightReturns

Posted
Posted
I'll visit you when you get your face lift (not before about 20 years I hope;);) You'll still be Richard!

 

I won't think you NEED a facelift, because to me you will still be the same beautiful person you are now...

 

But I'll understand;) [/color]

Will you visit me if I get butt implants? :foryou:

I'll test them out for you.

 

xoxo

 

greggy :blush:

:eek:

 

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Mr.Diggler

Mr.Diggler

Posted
Posted
I'll visit you when you get your face lift (not before about 20 years I hope;);) You'll still be Richard!

 

I won't think you NEED a facelift, because to me you will still be the same beautiful person you are now...

 

But I'll understand;) [/color]

Will you visit me if I get butt implants? :foryou:

I'll test them out for you.

 

xoxo

 

greggy :blush:

:sick:

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MrBedrock

MrBedrock

Posted
Posted
I'll visit you when you get your face lift (not before about 20 years I hope;);) You'll still be Richard!

 

I won't think you NEED a facelift, because to me you will still be the same beautiful person you are now...

 

But I'll understand;) [/color]

Will you visit me if I get butt implants? :foryou:

I'll test them out for you.

 

xoxo

 

greggy :blush:

:o
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greggy

greggy

Posted
Posted
I'll visit you when you get your face lift (not before about 20 years I hope;);) You'll still be Richard!

 

I won't think you NEED a facelift, because to me you will still be the same beautiful person you are now...

 

But I'll understand;) [/color]

Will you visit me if I get butt implants? :foryou:

I'll test them out for you.

 

xoxo

 

greggy :blush:

:o
Richie's got back! :whee:
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DrWatson

DrWatson

Posted
Posted
I'll visit you when you get your face lift (not before about 20 years I hope;);) You'll still be Richard!

 

I won't think you NEED a facelift, because to me you will still be the same beautiful person you are now...

 

But I'll understand;) [/color]

Will you visit me if I get butt implants? :foryou:

I'll test them out for you.

 

xoxo

 

greggy :blush:

What exactly does that mean?

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DarkKnightReturns

DarkKnightReturns

Posted
Posted
I'll visit you when you get your face lift (not before about 20 years I hope;);) You'll still be Richard!

 

I won't think you NEED a facelift, because to me you will still be the same beautiful person you are now...

 

But I'll understand;) [/color]

Will you visit me if I get butt implants? :foryou:

I'll test them out for you.

 

xoxo

 

greggy :blush:

:o
Richie's got back! :whee:
(worship)
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Mr.Diggler

Mr.Diggler

Posted
Posted
I'll visit you when you get your face lift (not before about 20 years I hope;);) You'll still be Richard!

 

I won't think you NEED a facelift, because to me you will still be the same beautiful person you are now...

 

But I'll understand;) [/color]

Will you visit me if I get butt implants? :foryou:

I'll test them out for you.

 

xoxo

 

greggy :blush:

What exactly does that mean?

More cushion for the pushin? (shrug)

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Theagenes

Theagenes

Posted
Posted
So.....is Brent still in NOD?

 

Joey,

As far as I know he is still a member and still Chairman. He has broken no rules so I don't understand why anyone thinks there should be any action against him for this. I know Gary, Brad and maybe some others have strong feelings about this and I respect their opinions, but NOD is not an anti-pressing organization today, regardless of the intentions of its founders four or five years ago or what some anti-pressers who aren't even members might want it to be or what some some pro-presser try to label it as. Members have a variety of opinions on the matter, just like the boardies here.

 

If the point you are trying to make is that it is hypocritical to ignore what Brent is doing considering how you were treated, then in my personal opinion I would agree with that. I was opposed to what happened with you. I did not support the rule change at the time. It was, again imo, hastily crafted and clumbsily thrown together to single out an individual. Changing the rules in midstream like that was completely unfair, and that rule in any case simply made very little sense. I felt strongly that it was just plain wrong and I almost didn't renew my membership that fall (instead I went the opposite way and upped it to the full tier so that my vote would have more weight in future ballots).

 

I have been very vocal in my opposition to this rule over the past year since I've been a officer. I know that some members of NOD disagree with my position and others agree, but for what it's worth that is my take on it. To censure Brent for this would simply be to repeat the same injustice that was done to you.

 

Jeff,

 

Personally I really have no issues with most of the NOD members. Many of them I communicate with via PM on a regular basis, but as an organization you guys make me scratch my head. While Brent may not be doing anything wrong you (NOD as an organization) have on paper, it is a hypocritical at best especially after the way some of it's members have been treated in the past.

 

Like I said I don't disagree with that at all. I have been left scratching my head at a number of things the organization has done over the last couple of years, most of them mentioned in this thread. As Watson said earlier we don't need to add to that list with another kneejerk reaction.

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greggy

greggy

Posted
Posted
I'll visit you when you get your face lift (not before about 20 years I hope;);) You'll still be Richard!

 

I won't think you NEED a facelift, because to me you will still be the same beautiful person you are now...

 

But I'll understand;) [/color]

Will you visit me if I get butt implants? :foryou:

I'll test them out for you.

 

xoxo

 

greggy :blush:

What exactly does that mean?

:gossip:
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sckao

sckao

Posted
Posted
If I owned say an original and very famous Renoir painting and I was an extremely famous and legendary figure in the world, let's say I somehow was murdered in front of this painting. Is the resulting painting (now splattered with blood) worth more now or should it be cleaned? Because it is now of quasi-historical value, should it be kept in this current state?

That's a lot of "what ifs" to swallow to get to that point, buddy. :baiting:

 

The main point is are you going to restore the painting to its former state because the blood splatter lessens the enjoyment of viewing the painting? Or are you going to allow the painting to remain in its current state?

 

Either position seems valid to me. It's a personal choice. (Monetary value notwithstanding.)

 

 

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