Is a CGC "10.0" a REALITY or FICTION? (((POLL)))

[comicinvestor-migration]

Or maybe they have a special counter that rings when they've hit their 100th CGC 9.8 for the day!

 

Ding, Ding, Ding! Ten-Point-OHHHH!

[Guest]

...some people dont like you C.I. but I do. You kill me with your brand of dark humor.

[wolfling40-migration]

I understand the reasoning you are using here. Some thing like an aminal cannot be studies without the observer himself modifying its behavior.

However, I think there is a false premise here:

Once you open that sucker up (no matter how carefully) the comic is in worse shape (no matter how incrementally) than in its unread state, thereby negating the potential of a 10.0 grade.

You surely cannot believe that with gloves and proper care you damage a new comic by opening it? I believe that with the right care, you can inspect a comic for grading without altering its appearance in any way visible to the naked eye.

We are not talking about the Dead Sea scrolls here.

I am sure that you, with your knowledge and understanding of grades and how a comic can be damaged could open and inspect a "perfect" comic without anyone being able to find any flaws you had introduced after.

 

Mark in Taiwan

[Rickdogg]

I didn't say that...I think CI did.

 

The premise & statements in the argument are true in logical terms ( i took it last semester. It's kind of funny when you actually start thinking philisophically and watch out for arguments which are "logical" or not. You can literally use all of the fallacies (ad hominem, ad populum) and literally rip apart a person's argument and call it straight out fallacious.

[wolfling40-migration]

Whoever said it....

I think that you have to have the possibility to have a 10 or the scale is not true. I also wonder what the motivation was to have 9.0, 9.2, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8 and 10 at the top of the scale, but only, say, 8.0, 8.5 and 9.0. Is there no need for a grade of 8.4, for example? Or, more to the point perhaps, who the hell can tell the difference between 8.2 and 8.4? Seriously, the kind of discussions here about grading are more exacting than I ever thought I'd hear. What next? Scanning electron microscopy? 9.2 vs. 9.4...you are really splitting hairs here now.

Sure, opening a "mint" book will redistribute some molecules...but damage it? Or otherwise degrade it from "mint" condition? Hardly.

 

Mark in Taiwan

[Rickdogg]

I am guessing...(since I don't want to put words in CI's mouth. ) that he meant that no matter how careful a grader is and in the case of CGC, 3 graders are when handling your books, there is always damage caused. Even if it is microscopic, it is no longer in actuality a perfect book.

 

I'm like some board members on here who believe that there is no such thing as a "perfect" book. Mint 9.9? possibly. Mint 10.0 after grading? no way Jose

[wolfling40-migration]

Interestingly, the grades that I put on my list of comics (that survive) from when they were stored (about 1979), are far different from what CGC would probably give them now. I listed most of them as "mint" as they were in a condition that included me reading them once carefully as not to disturb the condition. I can say that I did not inflict any damage on them beyond what was done in shipment to the comic shop. We thought "mint" meant that "in the same condition as you bought it new (assuming that the copy you bought was the best one on sale)."

Now a person might argue that "mint," in terms of the same sense of coins, means "specially pressed." Once a coin in touched it becomes at best "uncirculated." Since comics never had a special run for collectors who wanted a copy hermatically sealed immediately after it came of the press (someone had to take it off the machine....by hand.) there is no comparison to coins. Therefore, the standards for a printed book or magazine are different and "mint" should not indicate some extrodinary few books that were never touched or opened (alledgedly).

If no book is a 10, then the scale is flawed. Even absolute zero in temperature can be reached.

 

Mark in Taiwan

[murph0]

Personally, I would consider a 10.0 to be absolutely flawless..which I really don't believe in, in any pretty much any situation involving just about anything. To tell me a printing press printed out a perfect copy, it got handled perfectly, and then it got all the way to me absolutely perfect seems quite far fetched. If 10 is supposed to mean as close to perfection as attainable, then I'd believe it..but I'd guess that even on a 10.0 the book might be ever so slightly miscut or off-center, or the staples might not be EXACTLY in the right spot..so many slight slight slight imperfections (some unseeable without a microscope) are out there and to claim something as perfect doesn't quite seem right.

 

Brian

[Rickdogg]

Obviously we have come a long way in grading. Which is great IMO since dealers love to use the word MINT! hehehe.

 

Therefore, the standards for a printed book or magazine are different and "mint" should not indicate some extrodinary few books that were never touched or opened (alledgedly).

 

Darth would know the answer to this one. I believe he had to handle all of his 10's with gloves. One finger print and BAM down to 9.9 right? The temperature analogy is used incorrectly in this comparison becuase a thermometer measures temperature which can go below 0 degrees. I've never heard of a (negative) -1.0 extra poor comic book. The scale used for comics IMO is set at ten and any flaw that a book has, knocks it down accordingly. Who knows maybe there might be a perfect book out there (10.0) which would gives the 10 point scale credibility. But what I am arguing is the fact that once it is handled and graded it is no longer that perfect CGC 10.0 Mint copy.

[wolfling40-migration]

I was refering to the kelvin scale.

 

The Kelvin temperature scale (K) was developed by Lord Kelvin in the mid 1800s. The zero point of this scale is equivalent to -273.16 °C on the Celsius scale. This zero point is considered the lowest possible temperature of anything in the universe. Therefore, the Kelvin scale is also known as the "absolute temperature scale". At the freezing point of water, the temperature of the Kelvin scale reads 273 K. At the boiling point of water, it reads 373 K.

 

Of course someone will now bring up the speed of light....

[Rickdogg]

Ok got ya. I have taken chemistry and physics so I am familiar with the Kelvin scale

[Bugaboo-migration]

I'm sorry guys.....but I'm along the same lines of thinking as wolfling40. There has to be an achievable 10.0 book or otherwise the scale is useless. If 9.9 is the highest achievable, then in effect, it would become the 10.0 equivalent. You guys are trying to take this 10.0 thing to the Nth degree and it doesn't work. You could nitpick this thing down as far as you want to take it and say that even an unopened perfect appearing book couldn't achieve a 10.0 grade. There would be microscopic inconsistencies in the ink, the paper quality, the cutting, etc., etc., etc.

 

The books come into contact with many things before they reach a buyers hands..........the printing machines.......packaging equipment and material.......or even just other books. These are all going to leave microscopic flaws on a book. Nobody ever said that a 10.0 book has to be printed in a vacuum with equipment that never touches the paper and with the perfect precision of God in order to be a 10.0 comic.

 

A 10.0 book simply means that given all the things that a book has to go through before it gets encapsulated (like printing, cutting, binding, shipping, stocking, mailing, and gradeing), that once it's encapsulated, for all intensive purposes, it's in the best condition possilbe.

 

And to make sure that wolfling40 isn't disappointed, I'll go ahead and bring up the speed of light as well. Who can tell us what happens if you are on a platform traveling at half the speed of light, and you point a flashlight in your direction of travel and turn it on? How does the light beam appear to you, and how does it appear to an outside observer on the ground watching you go accross the sky? And yes, there is a scientifically correct answer to this question which I'll give later today.

[Rickdogg]

I honestly don't give a rat's I just wanted to throw this out there for you guys since the board has been dead lately

[drbanner]

Sure, opening a "mint" book will redistribute some molecules...but damage it? Or otherwise degrade it from "mint" condition? Hardly.

 

I agree. The amount of damage caused by 3 professional graders handling a book properly pales in comparison to the "damage" caused by the automated production process. Defining a 10.0 by the state of the book after production is ridiculous as that would imply every book coming off the process line is a 10.0, so a 10.0 (as CGC has adopted it) means a virtually flawless book.

[Bugaboo-migration]

I honestly don't give a rat's

--------------------------------------------------------

 

A rat's ?........now that's a different story. The highest grade I've seen for a rat's is a 9.9 and even though it looked fantastic, it smelled like s#!t.

[Rickdogg]

LMAO, nice face hahaha

[Bugaboo-migration]

[jens25e]

I think there can be a real 10.0 and I also think that a book can be read..or lets say skipped through several times carefully and it would still make it a 10.0 book while at the same time an unread book can easily be a 8.5 or lower.

 

Who do you think produces and transports comics?

 

There are at least 10 different people touching each single book in one way or another. I have worked in the paper industry often enough as a student to know how they treat their items and I frankly wonder that afterwards some magazines (or whatever they just produce) still look untouched and good.

Often enought they get dings and creases in their production.

 

A comicbook bought "fresh" from the newsstand has at least an as high risk to be damaged while getting there as after you bought it and it doesn´t necessarily have to be a production fault for the whole issue.

[fantastic_four]

I'll start becoming a believer that a 10.0 doesn't exist when:

• Somebody shows us all an example of the visible defects present on multiple CGC 10.0 copies. Most of the people here who say they don't believe in a 10.0 haven't even seen one given that grade by CGC.
• Somebody gives me a specifically qualitative and quantitative description of defects left by careful handling with gloved hands. I've read several of my early high-grade Silver comics, and I can almost guarantee you that evidence of my reading is nowhere to be found. I'm extra-careful when holding what equates to a few days or weeks worth of work in my hands!

This is another thread containing metaphysical debate of physical fact with no physical evidence offered up, much like the thread on CGC's leniency. One fact is worth 100 opinions when the topic is physical matter.

[jens25e]

hey I like this fantastic four dude

I´ll give him 5 stars