How much has CGC books hurt the "raw" book market on Ebay?

[shiverbones]

i have had no trouble selling raw books at 85-300% of guide. I use large scans and have been selling online since 1997, so people trust me. It all goes back to trust, which is what cgc gives people. If they trust a seller because of accurate grading or becasue its slabbed, its the same thing.

[FFB]

The point I was trying to make was not whether he is a good seller. The point I was making is that he routinely gets above guide for raw books because he uses big scans that make the books look like they are really near mint or NM+, like many other sellers do. Whether he restores his books or doctors his scans and fails to disclose that to people or not is completely beside the point. The fact is that people who are unaware of the controversy surrounding the guy are willing to fork over big dollars for his raw books, and this is for a guy who keeps his feedback private, which most people would find inherently suspect, despite his explanation.

 

It would be one thing to say that raw, high-grade books from CGC Charter Member dealers (who advertise that fact in their auctions) routinely sell for above guide. It is another thing to be able to show that a guy who is not a CGC Charter Member, who keeps his feedback private, and who gets virtually zero bids from most of the people who visit these boards, can still get more than NM guide for his raw high-grade books. If it were only CGC Charter Members who routinely realized prices above NM guide for their high-grade books, one could still make the case that the market for high-grade raw books is "suffering" because of CGC. But when there is clear evidence that just about *any* seller with a decent feedback percentage who puts up a big scan of a high-grade raw book can get above NM guide, I think that makes a strong case for the argument that CGC has not harmed the high-end raw market, and perhaps has helped it.

 

OK first of all throw those comic keys examples out the window, as they might serve a better purpose as street garbage thatn as an example for any comic discussion unless its how to restore and sell unresotred on Ebay.

 

Jscomics is a very good seller of raw stuff.... and hes an exception to the rule, cause they are few and far between.

 

[lou_fine]

OK first of all throw those comic keys examples out the window, as they might serve a better purpose as street garbage thatn as an example for any comic discussion unless its how to restore and sell unresotred on Ebay.

 

Actually, after hearing all the stories of big dealers and major collectors pressing and cleaning their books in order to bump them up from 8.5 all the way to unrestored 9.6's makes comic keys seem not so bad after all. At least, he's got some interesting and fun stories to entertain you along the way.

 

I guess I still have a problem with all of these undisclosed restored resubmits getting away with super high-end CGC blue labels.

[garthgantu]

I think jbud's comment about the comic-keys auctions might have been based on a suspicion that in addtion to undisclosed restoration, there might be some shill bidding going with those auctions. I would agree that for the purposes of illustrating the point in question, comic-keys is a questionable choice...

[FlComicFan]

I would say Raw books listed as NM are doing at least as well as pre CGC Now you have the gamblers come in and bid well over guide hoping to catch a book worth of submitting to CGC to flip once it comes back a 9.4/9.6 etc. Of course since about 95% of the books called NM arent the odds dont seem so good. I have no problem paying well for books from dealers who 1. have a nice large scan 2. and most important, those who will accept returns My advice is if you want to sell RAW books and do well 1. grade it as if you were looking to buy the book 2. provide a nice scan and list any flaws even the most minimal and 3. offer some sort of reasonable return policy Sellers like Loisandclark, nochips etc seem to do well and there was a seller whose user name I cant remember who was asking spectacularly high prices for 70's DC horror and war RAW and getting really insane prices I guess the stuff he was selling is cheap enough by guide that few are being submitted to CGC and he can thus get those prices from people trying to fill runs. I plan on selling off a lot of super high grade 1970's books very soon and I'll be precticing what I preach.

[AtomicPaul-migration]

JBud,

 

Actually JS Comics examples should be thrown out the window as far as auction prices for non-CGC comics, and I'll explain why.

 

I've seen many auctions of raw comics from JS where (like the Showcase auctions of yee olden' days) JS will guarantee the CGC grade of his raw comic! If you're buying a raw comic with an ironclad guarantee from the seller that it will grade the auction grade when submitted to CGC, that's not exactly being offered as strictly a raw comic. Because JS is not only guaranteeing that you'll like the book, but further guaranteeing the CGC grade, it's no surprise that a comic that guides at $500 in NM will auction raw at $1000 plus, if the going rate on a CGC 9.4 is $2000!!

 

A raw book with a guarantee of CGC grade from the seller is now (at least partially should be considered) a CGC comic. He might be selling it raw, but his CGC grade guarantee should push the raw book almost up to CGC like prices.

 

Of course, you have to consider the PQ of the book as well. There was a NM/MT Spiderman 129 that JS offered that was badly folded and miscut at a severe angle. It auctioned for close to $3000 and I know CGC is lenient with factory flaws on 9.8s but this book looked like it would receive no better than a 9.4 due to other considerations as well. So I'd have to ask, how much of that bid was based on the strength of the book in the image, and how much of it was based on the guarantee of it getting a 9.8 (a $7000 plus label), which if it doesn't can be returned for a refund?

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

Of course, you have to consider the PQ of the book as well.

 

QP

[FFB]

The examples I put up were the first few that came up on a five minute search of ebay. Feel free to check out the NM realized prices on ebay that reputable dealers are getting. If you don't think JS Comics should count, check out what other dealers are getting. Then try to find more than a couple of examples where NM Silver and Bronze books with huge scans are selling for significantly under guide. To the extent you can find any, I will bet on two things -- a) that the issue is not only not a key issue, but probably is from a series that doesn't get much attention, and b) that the seller has some negative feedback or a bad shipping policy that is hindering bidders. The point is, NM raw Silver and Bronze comics are going for well above guide in most cases when a reputable dealer is providing a large scan so that the buyer can judge the grade for him/herself.

 

FFBB

 

JBud,

 

Actually JS Comics examples should be thrown out the window as far as auction prices for non-CGC comics, and I'll explain why.

 

I've seen many auctions of raw comics from JS where (like the Showcase auctions of yee olden' days) JS will guarantee the CGC grade of his raw comic! If you're buying a raw comic with an ironclad guarantee from the seller that it will grade the auction grade when submitted to CGC, that's not exactly being offered as strictly a raw comic. Because JS is not only guaranteeing that you'll like the book, but further guaranteeing the CGC grade, it's no surprise that a comic that guides at $500 in NM will auction raw at $1000 plus, if the going rate on a CGC 9.4 is $2000!!

 

A raw book with a guarantee of CGC grade from the seller is now (at least partially should be considered) a CGC comic. He might be selling it raw, but his CGC grade guarantee should push the raw book almost up to CGC like prices.

 

Of course, you have to consider the PQ of the book as well. There was a NM/MT Spiderman 129 that JS offered that was badly folded and miscut at a severe angle. It auctioned for close to $3000 and I know CGC is lenient with factory flaws on 9.8s but this book looked like it would receive no better than a 9.4 due to other considerations as well. So I'd have to ask, how much of that bid was based on the strength of the book in the image, and how much of it was based on the guarantee of it getting a 9.8 (a $7000 plus label), which if it doesn't can be returned for a refund?

 

[Foolkiller]

To the extent you can find any, I will bet on two things -- a) that the issue is not only not a key issue, but probably is from a series that doesn't get much attention, and b) that the seller has some negative feedback or a bad shipping policy that is hindering bidders. The point is, NM raw Silver and Bronze comics are going for well above guide in most cases when a reputable dealer is providing a large scan so that the buyer can judge the grade for him/herself.

 

good point.

[valiantman]

The Eddie Murray rookie card alone from the 1978 set wound up being worth more than all of the comics by a factor of about 10.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2785391204&category=23836

Don't feel bad... you know deep down that your 9 year old body

didn't handle the Eddie Murray rookie card in such a way

that a PSA 9 grade is even possible. If a 9 year old touched it even once,

you can guarantee that it was a PSA 6 or 7 at best.

[FFB]

I didn't know who Eddie Murray was when I was 9, because I was an Angels fan and only an Angels fan, so I didn't handle his card any more than any common in the set. The set I had was mint and in a box. I never touched the cards after taking them out of the pack and putting them in order. I don't know anything about baseball card grading, but I can tell you that I didn't damage the cards at all between removing the wax wrapper and putting them in the box.

 

The Eddie Murray rookie card alone from the 1978 set wound up being worth more than all of the comics by a factor of about 10.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2785391204&category=23836

Don't feel bad... you know deep down that your 9 year old body

didn't handle the Eddie Murray rookie card in such a way

that a PSA 9 grade is even possible. If a 9 year old touched it even once,

you can guarantee that it was a PSA 6 or 7 at best.

[valiantman]

I'm just trying to help you out with your potential regrets...

A nine year old who trades baseball cards for comic books

probably trades VG cards for VG comics.

(By the way, 90% of all Eddie Murray rookie cards are horribly off-center.)

[FFB]

Now THAT makes me feel better.

 

(By the way, 90% of all Eddie Murray rookie cards are horribly off-center.)

[jbud73]

JBud,

 

Actually JS Comics examples should be thrown out the window as far as auction prices for non-CGC comics, and I'll explain why.

 

I've seen many auctions of raw comics from JS where (like the Showcase auctions of yee olden' days) JS will guarantee the CGC grade of his raw comic! If you're buying a raw comic with an ironclad guarantee from the seller that it will grade the auction grade when submitted to CGC, that's not exactly being offered as strictly a raw comic. Because JS is not only guaranteeing that you'll like the book, but further guaranteeing the CGC grade, it's no surprise that a comic that guides at $500 in NM will auction raw at $1000 plus, if the going rate on a CGC 9.4 is $2000!!

 

A raw book with a guarantee of CGC grade from the seller is now (at least partially should be considered) a CGC comic. He might be selling it raw, but his CGC grade guarantee should push the raw book almost up to CGC like prices.

 

Of course, you have to consider the PQ of the book as well. There was a NM/MT Spiderman 129 that JS offered that was badly folded and miscut at a severe angle. It auctioned for close to $3000 and I know CGC is lenient with factory flaws on 9.8s but this book looked like it would receive no better than a 9.4 due to other considerations as well. So I'd have to ask, how much of that bid was based on the strength of the book in the image, and how much of it was based on the guarantee of it getting a 9.8 (a $7000 plus label), which if it doesn't can be returned for a refund?

 

 

 

Good points, thanks for the input - the JSComics situation is interesting is is not I think he illustrates what exceptional quality and service in a seller can equate to and thats big $$$ for raw books, but I still insist that when you look at the entire Ebay raw market, not just a select few cream sellers, CGC has hurt the prices realized, sometimes this is actually a good thing as there may be less Comic-keys type sellers around who are getting away with stuff, but I think Lou Fine brings out another point with the HG pressing thats going around, what does it mean - I think it illustrates the point - BUY THE BOOK NOT THE LABEL CAUSE HOW THE BOOK ACHIEVED THE LABEL IS AN EXTREMELY WINDING ROAD