30/35 cent books with diamond and blank box

[shadroch]

Picked up a VG-F run of spideys at a garage sale this morning and the 173 and 180 have diamonds around the price and blank white boxes where the UPC code should be.

What do these mean? Anything special about these?

[cheetah]

I'm guessing someone is going to tell you they are Whitman variants.

[Shark]

I'm guessing someone is going to tell you they are Whitman variants.

 

+1

 

This has been debated back and forth (as to whether they are actual variants or not) but if they're in good shape (VF or better) I pick them up when I can and keep them as a Whitman variant in my collection.

[shadroch]

So these would have come from the Whitman three packs? I vaguely recall the debates, but not the details of them.

[ShieldAgent]

blank white box means whitman to me

[joe_collector]

Any pre-1980 book like this is definitely a Whitman copy/variant/version/edition.

 

People that call these "Direct Copies" are mistakenly trying to lump these in with the actual Direct Editions, which only started circa 1980 (as confirmed by Overstreet) or for simplicity's sake, just want to call all Whitman 3-pack comics "Direct".

[shadroch]

Vince,

Which edition of OS confirmed this? I have not read the last few. I believe 38 was the last one I bought.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Any pre-1980 book like this is definitely a Whitman copy/variant/version/edition.

 

People that call these "Direct Copies" are mistakenly trying to lump these in with the actual Direct Editions, which only started circa 1980 (as confirmed by Overstreet) or for simplicity's sake, just want to call all Whitman 3-pack comics "Direct".

 

False.

 

The fact is, Whitman was by far the largest distributor of Direct Edition books (which started circa 1975-1977), but they weren't the only one (others included Phil Seuling's own Seagate Distribution.)

 

Marvel experimented with ways to differentiate these Direct editions (which were not returnable) and newsstand copies (which were.)

 

Beginning with Feb, 1977 cover dated copies, they did this with the "Large Diamond" books. Large Diamond, UPC codes are Direct Market copies, distributed through any of a number of distributors (including Western/Whitman), directly to "comics specialty stores", who also ordered through regular newsstand distributor Curtis Circulation.

 

 

Books with the Large Diamond but with blank UPC were almost certainly printed specifically for inclusion in Whitman's 3-Packs, and ordered by Whitman from Marvel as such....however, because Whitman is known to have stockpiled books, this explains why UPC coded books also made their way into 3-Packs.

 

 

"Square price box" books are regular newsstand copies with the Curtis Circulation code and symbol.

 

 

If anyone disagrees, PLEASE provide DOCUMENTATION that proves otherwise, and I will happily revise.

[ShieldAgent]

 

Books with the Large Diamond but with blank UPC were almost certainly printed specifically for inclusion in Whitman's 3-Packs, and ordered by Whitman from Marvel as such....however, because Whitman is known to have stockpiled books, this explains why UPC coded books also made their way into 3-Packs.

 

 

Nice reply RMA.

 

Out of all the variations, I think the above paragraph is something we can all agree on. (thumbs u

 

now back to the regularly scheduled arguing....

[joe_collector]

If anyone disagrees, PLEASE provide DOCUMENTATION that proves otherwise, and I will happily revise.

 

Ummm, I think you forgot your DOCUMENTATION.

[joe_collector]

Vince,

Which edition of OS confirmed this? I have not read the last few. I believe 38 was the last one I bought.

 

I can't remember the exact edition, but it covered a 1979/1980 meeting between Marvel and the distributors to start producing a "Diamond" version of the standard comic, to differentiate between returnable and non-returnable.

 

Someone posted a scan of it awhile back.

[joe_collector]

BTW, the reasons I state that these are Whitmans is that:

 

1) I have yet to find a 1970's "Diamond" book that wasn't included in a Whitman pack.

2) Some titles have few, if any, Diamond copies during that time - are we to believe that in those three years, LCS's only sold ONE issue of New X-men? The same ONE issue that pops up regularly in Whitman 3-packs?

3) No large-format books (What-If, etc.) were EVER given a Diamond cover until 1979-80, as these were not a format that Whitman included in their 3-packs.

4) I have spoken to several old dealers/distributors and they don't remember any official Diamond Direct Copies being distributed prior to 1979-80, and certainly as early as 1977.

5) Why are there only random "Direct Copies", which are all in Whitman packs, then suddenly in 1979/80 after this "meeting" do all the titles go Diamond?

[joe_collector]

 

Books with the Large Diamond but with blank UPC were almost certainly printed specifically for inclusion in Whitman's 3-Packs, and ordered by Whitman from Marvel as such....however, because Whitman is known to have stockpiled books, this explains why UPC coded books also made their way into 3-Packs.

 

 

Nice reply RMA.

 

, I guess you've never opened up many Whitman packs. I have, and there are some multi-issue runs that have the FIRST issue with a blank UPC, and subsequent issues with the UPC. Whitman was only worried that the top issue would be mistakenly rung into the system, rather than the pack, but there was no reason to care about subsequent comics.

 

I will add one thing I got from an old distributor I met through eBay around 2000. He said, and with certainty, that (and I'm paraphrasing), "if Marvel did do "test runs" of Direct Copies, they would have to have the Month on them - Whitmans would not logically, as you don't want to stale date pre-packs, but comics on the comic store shelves would require a Month".

 

Now, there are a few of these Diamond books with Months on them, but they are very rare and only a few 1977-78/early-79 have them. So those might be actual test Direct Copies... The problem is, that some UPC copies have a month, while others do not, and I also believe that some blank UPC copies also have a month, while most naturally don't.

[joe_collector]

Actually, his theory might hold water, as I looked through many of the scans and can't find one with a Blank UPC and a Month. Anyone else?

[shadroch]

Can we all agree that Marvels with diamonds and blank UPC boxes are much rarer than their counterparts, and they are not reprints?

[joe_collector]

Can we all agree that Marvels with diamonds and blank UPC boxes are much rarer than their counterparts, and they are not reprints?

 

(thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

If anyone disagrees, PLEASE provide DOCUMENTATION that proves otherwise, and I will happily revise.

 

Ummm, I think you forgot your DOCUMENTATION.

 

That is a problem that I willingly concede. As Shield Agent and others can attest, we've been discussing this for years, and there's, sadly, a great lack of documentation concerning many things that happened in comics in the 1970's, when the market was in so much upheaval. I've been pursuing this issue for at least 12 years.

 

The main flaw has always been this: the OPG considered all large diamonds to be "reprints" for years, based solely on the Star Wars situation. When Star Wars became such a colossal hit, it became quickly obvious that the books hadn't been printed to satisfy the immense demand for these books, so they were reprinted...and reprinted...and reprinted...during the summer and fall of 1977.

 

The reality is, however, that reprinting a book like Marvel Tales #84 makes absoutely no sense. Not only would it be far more expensive than it was worth to re-order these books, Marvel had never, ever, up to that point in its nearly 40 year history, reprinted ANY book it printed in the same exact format as the original, much less based on initial demand.

 

That would change with Star Wars, which represents the very first time Marvel immediately reprinted any book because of demand, but it ONLY occured with Star Wars.

 

Even the ultra hot, ultra popular, instant sellouts Amazing Spiderman #121-122 didn't have "second printings" or "reprints", because such a thing would have been unprecedented in the entire history of the industry. Prevailing wisdom was always that reprints were to be done in Annuals (a la Amazing Spiderman Annual #9), or collections in reprint specific titles (a la Marvel Tales), and at the very least, reprints were at least a year, if not more, after the fact, and in an entirely different title.

 

Star Wars changed that, but only insofar as Star Wars was concerned. In fact, it was an experiment that wouldn't be repeated again until 1990's Spiderman #1. Yes, Marvel reprinted GI Joe books in the mid 80's, and called them second printings, which they were, but they were reprinted in 1985-1986, 3-4 years after the originals came out, and were not based on initial sellout demand.

 

Obviously, Star Wars caught everyone off guard, and someone at Marvel, probably then EIC Archie Goodwin, decided the demand was substantial enough to send orders back to World Color to reprint the books immediately.

 

Thus was born the idea that "large diamonds" are reprints, an idea that has persisted for 30+ years, all because of OPG.

 

But aside from the obvious problem of the lack of reason to reprint a book like Marvel Tales #84, we discover that the earliest "large diamonds" pre-date Star Wars #1 by three months!

 

How, then, could they POSSIBLY be reprints...? The answer, of course, is that they can't. What, then, were they?

 

Well...enter the Whitman 3-Packs, which have existed since at least the late 60's. We see these books in still intact 3-Packs, and we know that Western ordered these books from Marvel (and DC) to package up and sell at a penny or few discount ("3 comics for 99 cents!", cover price $1.05.)

 

Ah ha! So that's what these books are for! But why did they require a different price box? Well, since Marvel switched from Independent News (a company owned by National Periodical Publications, Inc [aka DC Comics]) to Curtis Circulation in 1969, they had carried the Curtis symbol, and later the circulation code number. But, if Western was obtaining these directly from Marvel, and not going through Curtis, there could be potential problems with this scenario.

 

At the same time, Phil Seuling had managed to convince DC and Marvel to sell their books directly to distributors at a much higher discount than they had previously given, but contingent on the fact that these books, unlike all prior distribution arrangements, would be SOLD, and NOT returnable to the publisher for any reason. This was a new and novel idea, and it took a few years for the details to be hammered out. For one thing, some unscrupulous dealers were sending back their remainders that they had bought on a non-returnable, heavily discounted basis, and pretending they were the copies they'd ordered through Curtis.

 

So, Marvel (and, eventually, DC) had to devise a way for these books to be distinguishable from the regularly distributed books...and thus, the large diamond, UPC books were born, in late 1976 with February, 1977 cover dated books.

 

Western, of course, was one of the first believers in the direct distribution system, but not because they wanted to supply books to comics specialty stores...no, they wanted to supply them to K-Marts, and Wal-Marts, and JC Penney's themselves, at the much steeper discount. It was really Seagate and others who took up the reins in distributing to the young comics specialty market. Western was willing to take the gamble on non-returning, because they'd already developed a workable model buying these books in massive quantities, 3-packing them, and selling them to/at retail outlets.

 

We also know that there were many, many 3-packs with books in them from several months apart. Western, at the time, is known to have been just a bit chaotic, and they certainly didn't care what got packed with what, and when. That's why an Amazing Spiderman "set" could contain three different issues from three different months, or an Amazing Spiderman, Spectacular Spiderman, and Marvel Tales. They were essentially grouped by whatever "theme" was in vogue on that day, packed up, and sent out. Western distributed THOUSANDS of books in this manner, so not much attention was paid to what got shoved in what, so if they got a UPC coded stack of books...who cares? Into the 3-Packs it went.

 

Now...granted, this is a lot of conjecture, but given what we DO know about the industry of the time period, with the establishment of the Direct Market, the Star Wars scenario, and Western's Whitman 3-Packs...it all fits.

 

That's why I said anyone with documentation to prove otherwise should, by all means, provide it, rather than simply rehashing the same old theories and "I don't agrees." As another member on the coin side has as a sig, "I am more than willing to change my mind based on new data or evidence."

[RockMyAmadeus]

Can we all agree that Marvels with diamonds and blank UPC boxes are much rarer than their counterparts, and they are not reprints?

 

I think, at this point, we can. For decades, because of the OPG, people just assumed all large diamonds were reprints...which, of course, makes no sense to anyone when they scratch under the surface.

 

(thumbs u

[joe_collector]

They were essentially grouped by whatever "theme" was in vogue on that day, packed up, and sent out. Western distributed THOUSANDS of books in this manner, so not much attention was paid to what got shoved in what, so if they got a UPC coded stack of books...who cares? Into the 3-Packs it went.

 

This kind of stuff just makes me shake my head. You don't really believe this, do you? That Whitman just tossed in whatever they wanted, yet ALL of the pre-packs from a given series contained the exact same books?

 

It just seems like a wildassed theory to explain away something that is far more simple. Whitmans were Diamond copies from 1977-79, and the UPC didn't matter except on the outer issue.

[RockMyAmadeus]

BTW, the reasons I state that these are Whitmans is that:

 

1) I have yet to find a 1970's "Diamond" book that wasn't included in a Whitman pack.

2) Some titles have few, if any, Diamond copies during that time - are we to believe that in those three years, LCS's only sold ONE issue of New X-men? The same ONE issue that pops up regularly in Whitman 3-packs?

 

No....you must take into account the fact that the Direct Market was an experiment. All shops extant at the time still ordered through the old Curtis Circulation system (some still do to this day!), so it's not as if they missed an issue. It also needs to be understood that even Direct Market distributors, like Seagate, et al, were still receiving "newsstand" copies, which was why the large diamonds were conceived of in the first place...to tell the books apart.

 

Also...titles like X-Men were still not "popular" (X-Men didn't take off until about 1978), so Western didn't order any, and thus the DM didn't get any SPECIAL copies, whereas, for popular titles like Amazing Spiderman, you have copies from virtually every month.

 

It is my belief, based only on the evidence at hand, that the large diamond books represent the orders of Western directly to Marvel, which Marvel then printed up in UPC and blank formats...blanks to go through Western, the other through "Direct Market" distributors. When Western didn't order several thousand copies, Marvel didn't see fit to print up ANY DM copies, because the balance of DM copies wouldn't have been worth the cost from World Color to make new plates.

 

Of course, just because Marvel ordered specific books in blank and UPC formats does NOT mean that Western...by far, the biggest customer for "DM" copies...did not receive UPC copies as well. They obviously did.

 

You'll note that DC has only TWO types of issues printed at this time...Whitmans (which are very clearly marked), and regulars. Does that mean DC didn't take part in the Direct Market until 1980? Of course not.

 

The key is the UPC codes. IF the large diamond books existed ONLY in blank UPC box format, I would agree with you, case closed, end of discussion. But they don't. UPC codes were NEW, and were actually USED back in the mid to late 70's. We know that, at least as far as DCs are concerned, every single Whitman variant except two (Action #490, and Super Friends #32, which were probably oversights) has either a Superman drawing (the first time such art is used for a UPC box) or a line through the UPC code. This is not by accident. This was to prevent the UPC codes from being used to track inventory in the regular way by retailers.

 

So then, why do Marvels from the same time period exist with BOTH regular UPC codes and blanks? Since there are copies of the same book in both states (Star Wars #11, for instance), then we know it wasn't accidental. There was a reason for both states to have been printed, and not just once, but consistently over a two year period.

 

The answer? Marvel printed them for the Direct Market, to be distributed through Seagate et al. I would be willing to venture that for every UPC large diamond, especially by late 1977-forward, these is a blank version as well.

 

The strongest evidence that the diamonds are the Direct Market versions is simply this: by March, 1979 (cover date, June), Marvel adopted the "small diamond" that had been tried on books like Tarzan #2 as far back as 1977, for all DM versions across the board.

 

3) No large-format books (What-If, etc.) were EVER given a Diamond cover until 1979-80, as these were not a format that Whitman included in their 3-packs.

 

As stated above, since Western didn't order any of these books, it is my opinion that Marvel didn't bother printing ANY versions of these books in "DM format."

 

4) I have spoken to several old dealers/distributors and they don't remember any official Diamond Direct Copies being distributed prior to 1979-80, and certainly as early as 1977.

 

Well...I don't give much credence to old dealers and their memories. After all, OVERSTREET...ROBERT OVERSTREET....said these books were ALL "reprints" for DECADES.

 

5) Why are there only random "Direct Copies", which are all in Whitman packs, then suddenly in 1979/80 after this "meeting" do all the titles go Diamond?

 

Again, because this was an experiment, and Marvel didn't print DM versions if they didn't get a large order from Western, in my opinion.