30/35 cent books with diamond and blank box

[Spider-Variant]

Some additional info/thoughts.

 

Both Star Wars #11s are originals. I own multiple copies of both (bagged and loose), no reprint notice in the indicia or on the covers to either issue. Plus no other diamond issue that I know of exists in both a UPC and non-UPC version (not counting the legitimate reprint issues of Star Wars #2, 3, and 4), just Star Wars #11.

 

Also, the early diamond issues were not exclusively sold in three packs. However, the only other verifiable distribution for these non-three pack issues also comes from Western Publishing which sold a retail box of ten diamond issues. Western was most definitely the driving force for the printing of these early diamond issues.

 

Like joe_collector, I have anecdotal evidence from dealers. Unlike joe_collector, these dealers claim to have gotten some diamond issues prior to the full blown conversion of Direct Market issues to being marked differently than newsstand issues in 1979. How they got these issues I do not know (loose issues from Western maybe?).

 

The size of the diamond appears to be related to how the cover was initially laid out for publication. Slim diamonds did exist on some Marvel titles as early as 1977 (see Tarzan #2).

 

Some diamond issues have a month on the cover and others do not. This also extended to the regular newsstand editions (see Star Wars newsstand issues #10 through #13). The month not appearing on the cover appears to be a "random" Marvel behavior with no other significance.

 

My personal theory with the vanishing of the UPC barcodes has to do with cashiers scanning the visible barcoded issue and selling a three pack for the price of a single issue. I think the vendors selling three packs asked for the removal of the barcodes to avoid having less observant cashiers selling the three packs for less than the sticker price.

 

Good stuff, I was looking for your site to confirm on the SW #11, but it's blocked at work.

 

 

[gifflefunk]

Another piece of info. I purchased a "printer's sample" of Star Wars #1 from a guy on eBay several years back. When I asked him about it he told me that he worked the floor at the Sparta plant (and his wife worked in the office managing the books). I asked him about the various types (diamonds and price variants) and he told me that they were all ordered at the same time and printed from the same run. They would do the normal newsstand issues first then change whatever needed to be altered (change the price or add the diamond, etc.) for the additional quantities. I have no reason to doubt his story.

 

I'm not sure how this fits in with the two versions of Star Wars #11 unless someone noticed the UPC mid-run and fixed the problem (he had no recollection of issue #11 specifically).

 

And for those who are curious. The "printer's sample" turns out to be a regular issue that was swiped from the first 100 or so printed copies. Someone would check the issue for production problems like registration, page order, etc., and just write a note and date it at the bottom of the first page. Nothing special in my opinion, but interesting to own one of the first 100 or so printed copies. He had other issues, but I was only interested in the Star Wars books at the time.

[RockMyAmadeus]

You say "Marvel didn't want UPCs on their proposed DM comics" , but the fact is, that didn't happen until early 1979. Not late 1976, when the large diamonds first appeared. And DC had already distinguished between WHITMAN copies and "all others" (including DM copies) in 1978.

 

The point is, that your logic makes no sense.

 

You are stating that many issues were printed up with BOTH UPC and Blank UPC covers, and while I haven't seen evidence of mass amounts of these, let's leave that for now.

 

That's not what I said. I said they exist, not that "many issues" were printed with both. As Gif said above, ony Star Wars #11 is known to have both at this time, though I suspect there might be more.

 

The second part is that the UPC copies were, according to your logic printed *specifically* for the Direct Market. Right? The DM didn't want the same "blank" copies that Whitman sent out, so they *specifically* ran a second run* ($$$) to print these UPC copies for the DM?

 

You're again mischaracterizing what I said...it wasn't up to the tiny DM to dictate what would appear on books. It was up to Western, which, as I stated above, was the single biggest customer...by a very large factor...of this new "discounted" system. The UPC codes were meant for books that were sold as single issues.

 

That makes ZERO sense, since there is no way that any DM would want UPC copies and there is no way that Marvel would incur that kind of expense for something the DM and LCS owners would never use or want.

 

That is based solely on your conclusion that the DM "wouldn't want" UPC copies, which is unsubstatiated by documentation. I say it again: what the DM wanted (and could command) in late 1976 was likely far different from what it wanted by early 1979, when Marvel went company wide with the DM designation "program."

 

Answer this question: why wouldn't comics speciality stores want UPC codes on their books, at a time when UPC codes were new, and being incorporated up and down the retail food chain (that is, aside from the obvious expense of the scanning equipment)...?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Good stuff, I was looking for your site to confirm on the SW #11, but it's blocked at work.

 

 

The SW #11 examples posted above were shamelessly stolen from Gif...

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Some additional info/thoughts.

 

Both Star Wars #11s are originals. I own multiple copies of both (bagged and loose), no reprint notice in the indicia or on the covers to either issue. Plus no other diamond issue that I know of exists in both a UPC and non-UPC version (not counting the legitimate reprint issues of Star Wars #2, 3, and 4), just Star Wars #11.

 

And Star Wars #1, with both the 30 cent UPC reprint and 35 cent UPC reprint covers, as well as the blank box reprints.

 

Also, the early diamond issues were not exclusively sold in three packs. However, the only other verifiable distribution for these non-three pack issues also comes from Western Publishing which sold a retail box of ten diamond issues. Western was most definitely the driving force for the printing of these early diamond issues.

 

Agreed.

 

Like joe_collector, I have anecdotal evidence from dealers. Unlike joe_collector, these dealers claim to have gotten some diamond issues prior to the full blown conversion of Direct Market issues to being marked differently than newsstand issues in 1979. How they got these issues I do not know (loose issues from Western maybe?).

 

While I agree that Western was far and away the biggest buyer of comics under the new Direct Market rules, I'm not sure how a store would have received copies from Western that would have been several months old by the time they appeared in 3-packs, or even the loose 10 box.

 

The size of the diamond appears to be related to how the cover was initially laid out for publication. Slim diamonds did exist on some Marvel titles as early as 1977 (see Tarzan #2).

 

Small diamonds I've only seen on Tarzan prior to 1979. Do they exist for other titles?

 

Some diamond issues have a month on the cover and others do not. This also extended to the regular newsstand editions (see Star Wars newsstand issues #10 through #13). The month not appearing on the cover appears to be a "random" Marvel behavior with no other significance.

 

My personal theory with the vanishing of the UPC barcodes has to do with cashiers scanning the visible barcoded issue and selling a three pack for the price of a single issue. I think the vendors selling three packs asked for the removal of the barcodes to avoid having less observant cashiers selling the three packs for less than the sticker price.

 

Almost everything I know about Large Diamonds I learned from Gif, so he's the man to go to.

 

Here's what we all know:

 

1. The Direct Market existed in some form from about 1974-75, through the efforts of Phil Seuling. Comics were sold for a much higher discount, but on the condition they were not returnable. Seagate Distribution, among others, bought these books directly from Marvel, DC, et al, and distributed them to comics specialty stores around the country.

 

2. Western Publishing, recognizing the opportunity, since they already had a successful "pack" formula, became the biggest customer for these new "Direct Market" rules. Therefore, Western itself was (a very large) part of the new Direct Market.

 

3. Marvel realized that they needed a way to differentiate between newsstand copies and Direct Market copies, because DM copies were being returned for credit as newsstand copies.

 

The question that remains, then, is simply this: was the alternate cover printing done solely and specifically for Western, and the rest of the Direct Market ignored until early 1979, or not?

 

If so, why the need to differentiate at all, since in general *most* of Western's copies were released long after the "return for credit" time window had closed?

[cheetah]

Another piece of info. I purchased a "printer's sample" of Star Wars #1 from a guy on eBay several years back. When I asked him about it he told me that he worked the floor at the Sparta plant (and his wife worked in the office managing the books). I asked him about the various types (diamonds and price variants) and he told me that they were all ordered at the same time and printed from the same run. They would do the normal newsstand issues first then change whatever needed to be altered (change the price or add the diamond, etc.) for the additional quantities. I have no reason to doubt his story.

 

I'm not sure how this fits in with the two versions of Star Wars #11 unless someone noticed the UPC mid-run and fixed the problem (he had no recollection of issue #11 specifically).

 

And for those who are curious. The "printer's sample" turns out to be a regular issue that was swiped from the first 100 or so printed copies. Someone would check the issue for production problems like registration, page order, etc., and just write a note and date it at the bottom of the first page. Nothing special in my opinion, but interesting to own one of the first 100 or so printed copies. He had other issues, but I was only interested in the Star Wars books at the time.

 

I really got some good info out of your web site. I wonder if I can add one of each cover style to my collection. I've got a couple of avengers with both a small diamond and a box for the issue.

 

This stuff may be old news to you guys but it is pretty interesting to me.

[joe_collector]

That is based solely on your conclusion that the DM "wouldn't want" UPC copies, which is unsubstatiated by documentation.

 

Big mistake, as the LCS's hatred of the UPC, and their hardline against it when the real DM started up in 1979, are well documented. You need to read more.

[joe_collector]

If so, why the need to differentiate at all, since in general *most* of Western's copies were released long after the "return for credit" time window had closed?

 

, you need to read more about Chuck's Mafia-in-comics tales. According to him, if Western ordered a pile of standard issues at discount, those covers would have ripped off at the printers and sent back in with the ink still wet.

[RockMyAmadeus]

That is based solely on your conclusion that the DM "wouldn't want" UPC copies, which is unsubstatiated by documentation.

 

Big mistake, as the LCS's hatred of the UPC, and their hardline against it when the real DM started up in 1979, are well documented. You need to read more.

 

Be happy to. Where do I start...? If it's well documented, you should be able to point me to those documents. (thumbs u

 

Oh, and they had a hardline against it in 1979....but not in late 1976.

 

And if the "real" DM didn't start until 1979, what was going on from 1974-1978?

 

Come on, JC, don't do your usual "I don't really know the answers, so I'll just avoid the questions" song and dance. ANSWER the questions.

[shadroch]

I signed a petition at a comic shop on Long Island asking Marvel to remove the UPC code/box from its covers sometime prior to 1979. In 1979, a comic shop opened up in Brockport, where I was in school and the owner had the same petition I'd previously signed. Its not exactly documentation, but if two stores,some 400 miles apart, had them- I'm guessing they were being passed around thru one or more of the distributors.

There was also heated discussion amongst dealers over the Diamond copies somehow being less legit than the newstand copies. Perry Albert, who had the only monthly convention on Long Island, at the time was fanatical about this- to the point of refusing to buy any diamond books and putting out flyers warning of the potential loss of future worth. Needless to say, this didn't go over well with the shop owners buying and selling Direct copies.

[gifflefunk]

I think we are confusing two different issues with UPC barcodes here. The first issue came about when the UPC was introduced to the covers of comics in 1976. Collectors were furious over having this unsightly blemish covering up some of the comic art and petitions were circulated over this issue and the fans lost that battle. This is well documented in fan publications at the time. This "outrage" involved newsstand issues as well as direct sale copies.

 

The other issue is the removal of the barcode lines from the UPC box starting in 1977. Which I think was a move desired by vendors selling packaged books.The graphics on the plastic bags do not cover the entire barcode and if you shift the contents to the top and right portion of the bag the scanner can easily register the barcode value.

[joe_collector]

Oh, and they had a hardline against it in 1979....but not in late 1976.

 

Amazing how all these LCS owners were so vehemently opposed to getting newsstand issues with UPCs, yet (according to you) that only became an issue in 1979?

 

Go read all the old OSs and CBGs of the era and there will be articles/letters/editorials/comments on this, as you well know.

 

And if the "real" DM didn't start until 1979, what was going on from 1974-1978?

 

Selling newsstand issues, like everyone else.

 

BTW, I'm thinking you're Doug Sulipa in disguise, attempting to parlay his warehouse of Whitman 3-packs into valuable, ultra-rare "Early Direct Market Comics Sold in Test LCSs".

[joe_collector]

I think we are confusing two different issues with UPC barcodes here. The first issue came about when the UPC was introduced to the covers of comics in 1976. Collectors were furious over having this unsightly blemish covering up some of the comic art and petitions were circulated over this issue and the fans lost that battle. This is well documented in fan publications at the time. This "outrage" involved newsstand issues as well as direct sale copies.

 

Definitely, and I remember LCS owners, in both editorials and letters, leading the charge on this, as opposed to Rocky's suggestion that "no one cared until 1979".

 

Other than its unsightly appearance, the other main reason I kept seeing is that "we don't need it" - the LCS used a standard till, and didn't have, or need, the scanning technology necessary. Some of these guys were vehemently opposed to it, far more than the situation merited IMO.

[gifflefunk]

Small diamonds I've only seen on Tarzan prior to 1979. Do they exist for other titles?

 

Yes. John Carter Warlord of Mars for 1977 has small diamonds.

[500Club]

 

And if the "real" DM didn't start until 1979, what was going on from 1974-1978?

 

Selling newsstand issues, like everyone else.

 

BTW, I'm thinking you're Doug Sulipa in disguise, attempting to parlay his warehouse of Whitman 3-packs into valuable, ultra-rare "Early Direct Market Comics Sold in Test LCSs".

 

Phil Seuling's Seagate started up in 1975. How quickly did they penetrate the market, in terms of orders growing from LCSs? And when did other distributors open for business?

[shadroch]

 

And if the "real" DM didn't start until 1979, what was going on from 1974-1978?

 

Selling newsstand issues, like everyone else.

 

BTW, I'm thinking you're Doug Sulipa in disguise, attempting to parlay his warehouse of Whitman 3-packs into valuable, ultra-rare "Early Direct Market Comics Sold in Test LCSs".

 

Phil Seuling's Seagate started up in 1975. How quickly did they penetrate the market, in terms of orders growing from LCSs? And when did other distributors open for business?

 

Seagate was open before that. I have an order form for April 1974, and I believe it was open at least a year before that. Pacfic Distributors was open by 1975.

Star*Reach was a Direct Market exclusive and was first done in 1974, if I recall correctly.

[500Club]

You are correct. 1974, according to Wikipedia. I can't find a month.

 

Did you run a store? If so, how quickly did you adopt the DM system of ordering? Did you continue to order from CC?

[joe_collector]

Phil Seuling's Seagate started up in 1975.

 

Sure, but we're talking about the Direct Market Editions, not the system, as back then Phil was distributing newsstand copies like everyone else.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think we are confusing two different issues with UPC barcodes here. The first issue came about when the UPC was introduced to the covers of comics in 1976. Collectors were furious over having this unsightly blemish covering up some of the comic art and petitions were circulated over this issue and the fans lost that battle. This is well documented in fan publications at the time. This "outrage" involved newsstand issues as well as direct sale copies.

.

 

Thanks GF. The outrage over the addition of UPC codes was, of course, from collectors, not retailers, and encompassed ALL comics from early 1976 on, and had little to do with the "large diamond" books. This was well before (by about 8 months) the appearance of the first large diamond books.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I signed a petition at a comic shop on Long Island asking Marvel to remove the UPC code/box from its covers sometime prior to 1979. In 1979, a comic shop opened up in Brockport, where I was in school and the owner had the same petition I'd previously signed. Its not exactly documentation, but if two stores,some 400 miles apart, had them- I'm guessing they were being passed around thru one or more of the distributors.

There was also heated discussion amongst dealers over the Diamond copies somehow being less legit than the newstand copies. Perry Albert, who had the only monthly convention on Long Island, at the time was fanatical about this- to the point of refusing to buy any diamond books and putting out flyers warning of the potential loss of future worth. Needless to say, this didn't go over well with the shop owners buying and selling Direct copies.

 

I do not doubt that this was a direct result of the chaos surrounding the Star Wars books, and their endless reprints, and may have been the result of, or even the cause of, Overstreet designating ALL these books "reprints" for decades.