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whitman question ?

Started by marino1,

59 posts in this topic

RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
Here we go is right. Look at DC and Marvel books from the same age, packaged in the same type of bag. One is clearly a Whitman variant while the other looks exactly the same as a direct market comics of the 1980's that did not have a UPC on them.

 

http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2770747810010367626SIaGYr

 

 

Not having a UPC on the direct market versions continued well into the 2000's ( look at the WTC Amazing Spider-man issue for example) Does that make all the Star Wars blank UPC ones Whitmans as well. You used to be able to buy those individually in ads for comics in the 1970's and 80's. Doug Sulipa has addressed this numerous times in Overstreet.

 

 

"WHITMAN Variants of MARVEL comics ??; One of the most controversial areas in the hobby. For the last 2-3 years i have seen many eBay sellers claiming that WHITMAN Variant's of Marvel comics exist. Some assume (incorrectly) that the early DIRECT variants with Black Diamond's, (No UPC box, slash thru UPC box, etc), must be "Whitman variants". The Newsstand copies are easy to identify (They have the full UPC CODE, plus they have the letters "cc" for Curtis Circulation always on the cover); YES, there were "Whitman" PLASTIC BAGS from 2/1977-1979 that had Black Diamond copies inside the bag. But these Black Diamond copies were widely sold to Comic Stops nationwide as "DIRECT" only NON-Returnable comics. They might have been originally specially produced for whitman by Marvel,

but very early on, were simaltaneously sold to Seagate. Seagate incorperated in 11/1977, but they seem to have sold DIRECT books before that time. DIRECT copies are still made today. ONCE OUT OF THE "Whitman" BAG, these copies are IDENTICAL to Seagate DIRECT copies and one cannot them them apart. In fact today's DIRECT market copies well outnumber the Newsstand copy print runs on almost everything. Marvel simply made NON-Returnable editions, which they sold to Whitman to put in their plastic bags. These NON-Returnable editions were also sold to the comics shop market thru Phil Seuling of Seagate. To make it more clear; ONLY THE PLASTIC BAG is a WHITMAN product. Marvel simply used Whitman as another venue to sell their comics, as they did with Seagate. They are more correctly termed "Early DIRECT Market" copies. Apparently the WHITMAN bag experiment lasted from 2/1977 thru 1979 & ended abruptly. The DIRECT Non-Returnable editions kept getting distributed to the comic shop market, as several competitors to Seagate entered the market. The 2-12/1977 "Early DIRECT Market" VARIANTS had small

print runs, estimated at 2-10% of the total Print Run & in fact remain quite collectible (i sell them at a +30-50% Premium); I also estimate that the 1978 & 1979 "DIRECT Market" VARIANTS had small print runs, estimated at 10-20% of the total Print Run (i sell them at a +15-30% Premium); Thus the 1977-1979 VARIANTS are the main collectible ones & should gain value as time goes on & awareness sinks in. For 1980-1985 the "DIRECT Market" Print Runs soared & thus are less collectible as Variants. Although Newsstand copies might have still outnumbered the 1980-1985 DIRECT Market copies, the SURVIVAL Rates differ widely. Perhaps 90% of the DIRECT Market copies exist in Dealer Inventories or Private Collections. Whereas perhaps only 20-50% of the Newsstand copies sold mailny to non-collectors, still exist today. Reasearcher extordinaire Jon McClure will soon publish an article proving WHITMAN did NOT publish any Marvel comics, (as they did for DC & Gold Key), other than a few Treasury's. There was a few months where Marvel seemed to have FORGET to mark the differences, (July/1978, March/1979 & April/1979) as they were experimenting HOW to mark NON-Returnable comics. These months exist only in standard Newsstand copies.

A few "Reprints" also exist in "WHITMAN" Polybags, but these too were sold to the DIRECT market. (But sold better in the Pre-Pack market, than in the Direct market, as reprints were not deemed collectible) The REPRINTS seem to be confined to a small number of LICENCED Popular Products of the Period, mostly brought on by the Huge Success of STAR WARS. Marvel was careful to mark REPRINT on the small number of issues that they did reprint. Overstreet has INCORRECTLY listed Shogun Warriors #1-3 and Micronauts #1-3 for many years as "Reprints" because of the blank UPC boxes. But if you check all the other "Direct" market marvels of the same months, you will see in fact that they have the identical markings & are in fact NOT reprints. Actually, most of these Reprints are quite a bit SCARCER than the Original Newsstand editions & should be MORE valuable, rather than LESS valuable, to Variant collectors.

The EMPTY "WHITMAN" bags were availiable in the early 1980's. The Newsstand Distriburor in our area had them availiable. They might have also been availiable in the DIRECT Market. [Any sealed factory bags of the 1977-1979 period with books from the same month, were certainly NOT the EMPTY jobber leftover bag variety].

I have seen a few 1980's books in sealed Whitman Polybags with mixed contents. These bags are typically filled with 1980's leftovers & slow sellers, by dealers who wanted to clear out overstock & then heat sealed. They can contain comics from different months, different years & different publishers. Occasioanally even Direct & Newsstand in the same bag. I have seen sealed packs for example with Arak & Kazar in the same bag. These JOBBER Clearance packs are of LOW value,"

 

Doug is situated in Winnipeg Manitoba. Winnipeg was a major distribution hub for comic books in Western Canada. Hope that helps.

 

It's hard to read when there are very few paragraph breaks.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

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Amazing Spiderman #192 is an official Direct Market copy, as are all blank UPC box books with a cover date of May, 1979.

 

Isn't it actually June 1979-and-on books that are official Direct Market copies?

 

Why would Marvel have a two month gap, and then have "one last hurrah" with the "Whitmans" nearly company wide, before "beginning" the DM cover program officially..?

 

Doesn't make sense to me...

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shadroch

shadroch

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If I recall correctly, the "direct market" books that Seuling recieved from Marvel were the result of an informal agreement between Phil and then Marvel president James Galton(sp?). The accounting department was not aware of this arraingement and I'm not sure ownership was. There might be two scenerios

1) Either the new owners came in and were surprised by this or 2)the old owners, in preparation of the sale conducted a company wide audit and discovered this. I'm guuessing Curtic ouldn't have been thrilled if this had been going on behind their backs.

Pure speculation on my part.

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joe_collector

joe_collector

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Why would Marvel have a two month gap, and then have "one last hurrah" with the "Whitmans" nearly company wide, before "beginning" the DM cover program officially..?

 

Check out the timeline, and pay close attention to the oddball books (that Whitman would never print) like Sgt Fury, Marvel Premiere, etc. and the titles like X-Men, MOKF, John Carter, Dr Strange, etc. with 1 or none Whitman issues from 1976-78, and you'll see they all start up in DM June-July 1979.

 

Too bad What If had a strange production cycle at that time, as those large-format comics were never included in Whitman packs and could be used as definitive proof.

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gifflefunk

gifflefunk

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Too bad What If had a strange production cycle at that time, as those large-format comics were never included in Whitman packs and could be used as definitive proof.

 

Proof of what? Isn't Conan #100 a large anniversary issue? I know its in a Whitman three pack with two regular issues.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

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Why would Marvel have a two month gap, and then have "one last hurrah" with the "Whitmans" nearly company wide, before "beginning" the DM cover program officially..?

 

Check out the timeline, and pay close attention to the oddball books (that Whitman would never print) like Sgt Fury, Marvel Premiere, etc. and the titles like X-Men, MOKF, John Carter, Dr Strange, etc. with 1 or none Whitman issues from 1976-78, and you'll see they all start up in DM June-July 1979.

 

Too bad What If had a strange production cycle at that time, as those large-format comics were never included in Whitman packs and could be used as definitive proof.

 

Sgt. Fury was bi, and thus did not have a May, 1979 cover date. Marvel Premiere was also bi.

 

As well, nearly half of the June, 1979 cover dated books have small diamonds (Spidey #193, Conan #99, Hulk #236, etc), just like several of the May, 1979 ones did.

 

Again....why would they wait two months...do one last Whitman "hurrah"...and THEN do the Direct Market cover designation switchover...?

 

That makes no sense. What makes sense is exactly what is: with cover date May, 1979, Marvel officially launched the DM cover designation program, ran most of those books either large diamond or small diamond with blank UPC box, checked to see how it looked, then for June, ran the square price/issue boxes with line through UPC code on half, small diamonds on the other half, and by July, they had settled on small diamonds/line through UPC code.

 

You can tell that even with the July cover date (approximately April, 1979) they were still toying with the format, as some books, like Avengers #185, have a month on the cover, while most books, like Spidey #194, do not. By August, 1979 cover date, the entire Marvel Comics Direct Market line was uniform, and would remain that way until the present day.

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joe_collector

joe_collector

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Proof of what? Isn't Conan #100 a large anniversary issue? I know its in a Whitman three pack with two regular issues.

 

Ummm, Conan 100 is from July 1979, or *after* the true Direct Market had started up. doh!

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gifflefunk

gifflefunk

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I didn't see where you specified anything about the "time", just a statement that "those large-format comics were never included in Whitman packs and could be used as definitive proof", which is why I ask proof of what?

 

Western didn't have a problem packaging a large-format issue in with regular issues even if the only evidence so far is after Jun-1979. I'd be willing to bet that Western was still ordering "random" issues from Marvel to fill the 3-packs after Jun-1979 just like they were doing prior to Jun-1979.

 

If a 3-pack prior to Jun-1979 contained a large-format comic in it I'm not sure what that would prove (for either side of the argument).

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joe_collector

joe_collector

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I didn't see where you specified anything about the "time", just a statement that "those large-format comics were never included in Whitman packs and could be used as definitive proof", which is why I ask proof of what?

 

doh!doh!doh!

 

Here's a short primer: The only timeline that under dispute here is the 1976-early-79 period, where I and others say it was Whitman producing comics in 3-packs, while others state that *some* *select* LCS dealers also received these as "Direct Copies".

 

After May/June 1979, the true Direct Market copies emerged and the entire market changed. So any comic or 3-pack found after May (or maybe June - we're till working that out) 1979 doesn't enter into the equation. At that point, Whitman would be using the *same* comics as were already printed up for the DM, not ordering them *specifically* for 3-packs.

 

So from 1976 to May 1979, prior to the true DM being started, no "Giant Size" comic was in a Whitman-branded Marvel Whitman 3-pack, at least to my knowledge. After that, it's just generic DM versions, small and large.

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gifflefunk

gifflefunk

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As well, nearly half of the June, 1979 cover dated books have small diamonds (Spidey #193, Conan #99, Hulk #236, etc), just like several of the May, 1979 ones did.

 

I think there were two things going on at this period in time (May-July 1979). The first is a layout change to the Marvel masthead and the second is the expansion of "diamond" issues into all non-Curtis points of distribution.

 

First, the facts: Prior to the Marvel "Still 35-cents" Star Burst graphic, the masthead had the title of the book in a white box above the boxes containing the price and issue number on most issues. When the Star Burst appeared around Oct 1978 the masthead layout changed. The title box vanished and the issue number and CC boxes moved from above the character logo box to the right hand side (for diamond issues they printed the title over the issue and CC boxes and then put the issue number in the diamond). The Star Burst was still large enough to hold a "large" diamond so nobody makes much notice of the fact that the layout had changed. Now when the Star Burst vanishes in May 1979 the issue number box and CC logo flip back to being above the character logo box, but the title box never returns. Now when the diamond is used to mask the CC logo there is less space for it and it becomes a "small" or "slim" diamond for no other reason than that of less space. The size of the diamond is an artifact of this layout change. If Marvel hadn't raised the price and had continued to run the "Still 35-cent" Star Burst until Oct 1979 we wouldn't think twice about the size issue somehow relating to the expansion of "diamond" customers. NOTE: some issues prior to 1979 didn't have a title box and they had "small" diamonds early on, like Tarzan and John Carter.

 

Now here is my theory on what happend (just a theory no real evidence behind it): After the May issue print runs had ended, word came down that all non-newsstand books would be marked the same. Perhaps to lessen the "shock" to subscribers and a majority of comic shop customers, someone decided that the first books in this "expansion" wouldn't get the diamond, just a slash through the UPC barcode lines (so the majority of titles with June cover dates are basically newsstand issues with a slash to denote the difference). Someone (probably in the legal department) noticed this at some point and said, "put the diamond back on those books, the CC logo should not appear on books not distributed by Curtis" (which I think at the time was still a sibling company to Marvel, both being subsidiaries to the same parent company). So the last few June 1979 titles got the diamonds back and all titles got them starting July 1979. And due to the space issue mentioned above, they got "small" diamonds.

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shadroch

shadroch

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Assuming Western paid 40% of the cover price for the books and sold them for around 55%, including anything other than the cheapest priced books would have destroyed their profit margin. If they were selling three forty cent comics for $1.09,

it follows they were paying around 16 cents per book,or 48 cents and selling them(after repacking them) for around 60 cents per pack. Including just one 50 cent book into the mix woul cut their profit in half.

I use 40% because thats what Marvel offered books to distributors at at the start of the DM and I use the 60 cent per pack because the retailers were buying these non-returnable and could have gotten three fully returnable comics for around 80 cents, so they needed a strong incentive to buy these packs rather than deal with their local distributor.

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gifflefunk

gifflefunk

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So from 1976 to May 1979, prior to the true DM being started, no "Giant Size" comic was in a Whitman-branded Marvel Whitman 3-pack, at least to my knowledge. After that, it's just generic DM versions, small and large.

 

I'm not sure what the June 1979 change would have to do with what Western was ordering and bagging. Prior to June 1979 it appears Western was ordering some titles consistently and other titles randomly (which is why I'm behind Western being the driving force for the early diamonds, if Western didn't order it, it probably doesn't exist as an early diamond). After June 1979 Marvel expanded the diamonds to all non-Curtis dist. points, but I think Western was still picking which titles to bag. So I think the over-size Conan #100 shows that Western didn't care about the size or cover price when they ordered books from Marvel. So I'm not sure why an early over-size diamond would be a shock or surprise and what it would prove other than Western ordered it.

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