Miracleman #15 - cover!

[delekkerste]

Watchmen #1 would be second, KJ 3rd, Turtles 4th, Spidy #300 5th (though, I think people would be disappointed to see that the art is just the circle with Spidey in it...)

 

All of the Watchmen covers almost sold recently as one lot. The price of all 12 covers combined was not much more than what the DKR #2 cover alone would likely sell for. Watchmen #1 is probably not in the top 25 most valuable '80s covers.

 

KJ #1 would be up there for sure. Spidey #300 I doubt it - key issue, yes; key OA...not so much. TMNT #1 would be up there (though, probably less than what some might think given how much the complete story, cover + extras sold for a few years ago). I'm going to have to agree with Chris and Dan and say that DKR #1 would almost surely fetch less than DKR #2.

[pkveronese]

All of the Watchmen covers almost sold recently as one lot. The price of all 12 covers combined was not much more than what the DKR #2 cover alone would likely sell for. Watchmen #1 is probably not in the top 25 most valuable '80s covers.

 

I agree - the Watchmen covers themselves are not that outstanding. Historic, yes, but from an aesthetic point of view, they suffer when compared to other standouts of the 80s.

[Nexus]

Individually (outside of the iconic #1), the WM covers aren't that visually exciting. Does anyone really want a cover of a perfume bottle, even if it's a WM cover? They certainly aren't typical comic book covers. But I also think that's what's unique about them. They aren't generic covers of the main characters posing heroically or fighting villains. Each cover is the first panel to the story inside.

 

That they don't work well as standalone pieces (i.e. perfume bottle) is also why they need to kept together as a set. I view them as one piece. Taken as a whole, it has much more of an impact.

 

Most fans would rather have a nice interior page. The covers aren't an easy sell. Most collectors could only afford one of the covers...only a few could afford to buy them all as a set. Of those few, all but one passed. Too bad the owner reneged on the deal...I think he'll have a hard time finding another buyer at that level and frankly, the covers would be in a better home.

 

As for the DKR #2 cover, a production stat was sold on Ebay a couple of years ago. Basically a photocopy of the OA, so anyone who saw that (unfortunately, I didn't save a scan), will know what the OA looks like. In printed form, #1 is one of my all-time favorite covers, but there is no doubt that in its original OA state, it wouldn't hold a candle to #2.

[RockMyAmadeus]

However, you have to know that the Cover to DKR #2 would so far surpass #1 in sales price it probably would not even be close. Imagine what the #1 actually is when you would see it as OA and you will know why.

 

 

I disagree completely, for the reasons stated above and elsewhere, but we have no way to find out for now, eh?

[RockMyAmadeus]

As far as Watchmen goes, 2-12 weren't in my equation. #1 is the only one with any strength, but it's got tremendous iconographic power behind it. The Comedian's bloody spattered button is, after all, THE Watchmen image that represents the entire brand.

 

We obviously all know the power of images, and when those images are repeated so frequently that they become indelibly identified with the "brand", they achieve an elevated status that cannot be matched by similar pieces, even from the same run.

 

That's why covers (almost) always sell for more, even when equivalent or better interior pieces are placed side by side. Recognition factor alone drives perceived value.

 

Selling ALL the covers to Watchmen in a group was a mistake, in my opinion. The value of #1 was undoubtedly dragged down by the rest.

 

Here's why I think the art to DKR #2 is "worth less" than #1, despite the sparseness of the artwork: if you asked 1,000 attendees of a large comic book convention to identify where the respective images came from, after removing any identifying logos and credits, I doubt more than 20-30% would be able to identify that artwork as coming from The Dark Knight (DKR is only the title of the first book, not the series) #2. Show them #1, and I imagine that number jumps up to 50% or more.

 

 

This seems like an idea for SD....

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

As for the DKR #2 cover, a production stat was sold on Ebay a couple of years ago. Basically a photocopy of the OA, so anyone who saw that (unfortunately, I didn't save a scan), will know what the OA looks like. In printed form, #1 is one of my all-time favorite covers, but there is no doubt that in its original OA state, it wouldn't hold a candle to #2.

 

 

I have some stats of the double splash OA of DD #169 that I've had for over a decade...

 

I wonder if they have any value...

[comix4fun]

As far as Watchmen goes, 2-12 weren't in my equation. #1 is the only one with any strength, but it's got tremendous iconographic power behind it. The Comedian's bloody spattered button is, after all, THE Watchmen image that represents the entire brand.

 

We obviously all know the power of images, and when those images are repeated so frequently that they become indelibly identified with the "brand", they achieve an elevated status that cannot be matched by similar pieces, even from the same run.

 

That's why covers (almost) always sell for more, even when equivalent or better interior pieces are placed side by side. Recognition factor alone drives perceived value.

 

Selling ALL the covers to Watchmen in a group was a mistake, in my opinion. The value of #1 was undoubtedly dragged down by the rest.

 

Here's why I think the art to DKR #2 is "worth less" than #1, despite the sparseness of the artwork: if you asked 1,000 attendees of a large comic book convention to identify where the respective images came from, after removing any identifying logos and credits, I doubt more than 20-30% would be able to identify that artwork as coming from The Dark Knight (DKR is only the title of the first book, not the series) #2. Show them #1, and I imagine that number jumps up to 50% or more.

 

 

This seems like an idea for SD....

 

 

 

I just wonder how many, if any, of those 1,000 attendees would be actual players if the piece came up for possible acquisition.

 

It's great that 1,000 people can ID a piece faster, if they aren't the ones spending the money it doesn't make a difference. We aren't talking about casual fans here. Anyone jumping into the 6 figure reality of OA purchasing is going to know what he's looking at and looking for.

 

If your hypothesis was a brand name, like McDonald's, or Wal-Mart it would be a better analogy because every one of those 1,000 people can take the entity they identified and purchase an item from them, thereby making that entity more valuable.

 

There's nothing that a group of regular comic fans can do to sway how much an established piece of OA from 25 years ago will sell for now, especially if it's a piece that is already worth significant money and well respected amongst collectors.

 

The guy hypothetically laying down his $150k for the DK #1 or #2 covers and trying to choose is giving ZERO thought to how much the dude dressed as PEDO-BEAR likes #1 over #2.

[Nexus]

Actually, I just remembered that the DKR #2 cover stat is on ComicLink:

 

http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch.asp%3Fwhere%3Dsell%26title%3DDark%2BKNight%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26ItemType%3DCA&id=769547

 

All yours for $7K (it originally sold on Ebay circa 2006/2007 for $400).

[Gatsby77]

Congrats on getting the double-page spread from issue 15! After # 15's cover, that double-page splash gets my vote as the most important image of the series, and (of course) the reason issue 15 became such a collector's item.

[Nexus]

That's why covers (almost) always sell for more, even when equivalent or better interior pieces are placed side by side. Recognition factor alone drives perceived value.

 

Sure, but let's consider this with WM. Out of everyone who's ever read the work, what percentage read it as monthly issues when they were released? 10%? The rest have read it in various collected formats, most likely TPB. What's more recognizable to them? The covers? Or an important interior story page? Something to consider with any comic that has continued readership in TBP format (SANDMAN, PREACHER, et al). Not sure the floppy covers mean the same to the TPB crowd as they do to the original readers. But I'm not saying interiors will eventually sell for more than covers, either. No idea.

 

Selling ALL the covers to Watchmen in a group was a mistake, in my opinion. The value of #1 was undoubtedly dragged down by the rest.

 

On the contrary, the rest of the covers were dragged UP by the inclusion of #1 in the lot. The value of #1 is the same whether sold individually or in the set. The other covers would have varying degrees of difficulty to sell. There was one buyer who was willing to take all of them...I'm sure there would have been multiple buyers for #1, but not sure there would have been 11 other buyers to take the other covers at the prorated price.

[RockMyAmadeus]

As far as Watchmen goes, 2-12 weren't in my equation. #1 is the only one with any strength, but it's got tremendous iconographic power behind it. The Comedian's bloody spattered button is, after all, THE Watchmen image that represents the entire brand.

 

We obviously all know the power of images, and when those images are repeated so frequently that they become indelibly identified with the "brand", they achieve an elevated status that cannot be matched by similar pieces, even from the same run.

 

That's why covers (almost) always sell for more, even when equivalent or better interior pieces are placed side by side. Recognition factor alone drives perceived value.

 

Selling ALL the covers to Watchmen in a group was a mistake, in my opinion. The value of #1 was undoubtedly dragged down by the rest.

 

Here's why I think the art to DKR #2 is "worth less" than #1, despite the sparseness of the artwork: if you asked 1,000 attendees of a large comic book convention to identify where the respective images came from, after removing any identifying logos and credits, I doubt more than 20-30% would be able to identify that artwork as coming from The Dark Knight (DKR is only the title of the first book, not the series) #2. Show them #1, and I imagine that number jumps up to 50% or more.

 

 

This seems like an idea for SD....

 

 

 

I just wonder how many, if any, of those 1,000 attendees would be actual players if the piece came up for possible acquisition.

 

It's great that 1,000 people can ID a piece faster, if they aren't the ones spending the money it doesn't make a difference.

 

It most assuredly does make a huge difference!

 

The reason these pieces have value at all is because so many people...you, me, anyone interested in these works...appreciate them, like them, admire them, enjoy them, desire them.

 

The buyer and seller don't exist in a vacuum. It's because there are thousands and tens of thousands of people who have interest in this stuff that we can talk about these things in these terms. The more people desire an item...whether they can afford it or not...the higher the perceived value of the item, based solely on the number of people who desire it!

 

If anyone thinks the influence of an entire fandom has no impact on the value of these items, they're absolutely mistaken. It is the sales prices of Miracleman on the back issue market, by average collectors, which influences the perceived value of the original art. It is the $500+ million that The Dark Knight makes domestically...all from average people...that influences the perception of what related items are worth, up and down the food chain.

 

Even *other competitors* in that realm may be influenced because of the pop cultural impact these characters have, which has a direct bearing on prices.

 

We aren't talking about casual fans here. Anyone jumping into the 6 figure reality of OA purchasing is going to know what he's looking at and looking for.

 

If your hypothesis was a brand name, like McDonald's, or Wal-Mart it would be a better analogy because every one of those 1,000 people can take the entity they identified and purchase an item from them, thereby making that entity more valuable.

 

There's nothing that a group of regular comic fans can do to sway how much an established piece of OA from 25 years ago will sell for now, especially if it's a piece that is already worth significant money and well respected amongst collectors.

 

The guy hypothetically laying down his $150k for the DK #1 or #2 covers and trying to choose is giving ZERO thought to how much the dude dressed as PEDO-BEAR likes #1 over #2.

 

The buyer may be giving zero thought to that dude, but that dude's interest (and the interest of tens of thousands of other fans) is WHY that buyer has to pay $150,000 (or whatever), instead of $500 for that piece. The influence of the gestalt has a massive, massive influence on the value of these items that absolutely cannot be ignored.

[RockMyAmadeus]

That's why covers (almost) always sell for more, even when equivalent or better interior pieces are placed side by side. Recognition factor alone drives perceived value.

 

Sure, but let's consider this with WM. Out of everyone who's ever read the work, what percentage read it as monthly issues when they were released? 10%? The rest have read it in various collected formats, most likely TPB. What's more recognizable to them? The covers? Or an important interior story page? Something to consider with any comic that has continued readership in TBP format (SANDMAN, PREACHER, et al). Not sure the floppy covers mean the same to the TPB crowd as they do to the original readers. But I'm not saying interiors will eventually sell for more than covers, either. No idea.

 

I didn't read it when it came out. I wasn't collecting comics. But I did read the individual issues when I bought them years later. And I surely wasn't the only one. Only 10% of all the people who have read Watchmen read it in its original format? Like my numbers for "DK recognition", that figure is plucked out of thin air, but with no way to prove it.

 

More importantly, the most commonly used image for the Trade covers has been Smiley face. As well, in advertising (trailers, print, etc) for the movie, Smiley was prominently featured.

 

Every time an image is seen in association with the brand, regardless of platform, it is reinforced. Buyers need not have seen the original #1 comic to recognize the symbol. What, other than perhaps the Doomsday clock, is the image most associated with Watchmen, across all media platforms? Smiley face.

 

Selling ALL the covers to Watchmen in a group was a mistake, in my opinion. The value of #1 was undoubtedly dragged down by the rest.

 

On the contrary, the rest of the covers were dragged UP by the inclusion of #1 in the lot.

 

Undoubtedly! I agree with that statement completely. But those two concepts are not mutually exclusive. They're simply two sides of the same coin. How does one determine the precise measure of the positive and negative influences on the value of a lot? There are far too many factors to nail it down.

 

The value of #1 is the same whether sold individually or in the set.

 

You're not seriously suggesting that any item would sell for the same individually as it would in a lot, are you..?

 

Do you mean "value" or "asking price"...? Because unless #1 was auctioned by itself, and #2-11 were auctioned by themselves, and then all 12 were auctioned together and the exact same sum result was achieved, it's impossible to prove.

 

The other covers would have varying degrees of difficulty to sell. There was one buyer who was willing to take all of them...I'm sure there would have been multiple buyers for #1, but not sure there would have been 11 other buyers to take the other covers at the prorated price.

 

Of course not, because we cannot *really* pro-rate unique items of varying worth. Since #1 is clearly the most valuable, the other 11 would have to be offered at a discount (off the SET price), since the set is no longer "complete."

 

But does that mean that the value (not asking price) of #1 remains the same, free of the other 11?

 

I don't think so. I think it increases.

[sborock]

BTW.........One of the Watchmen covers is a stat, not OA.

[Nexus]

I didn't read it when it came out. I wasn't collecting comics. But I did read the individual issues when I bought them years later. And I surely wasn't the only one. Only 10% of all the people who have read Watchmen read it in its original format? Like my numbers for "DK recognition", that figure is plucked out of thin air, but with no way to prove it.

 

"10%" was just a guess (hence the question mark). If we add up all the print runs of the various printings of TPBs, hardcovers, etc. and compare them to the original print run of the comic, we'd have a better idea (but not an exact idea...happy? ). I do know DC printed an additional one million copies last year due to demand stemming from the movie release. That's a lot of new readers.

 

Sure, the blood-splattered smiley face is the most iconic WM image. But the rest of the covers? Anyhow, my main point was, for anyone who's discovered these (non-traditional, mostly non-superhero) series outside the traditional monthly format, the cover image of the monthly may not have the same impact on them. No nostalgia attached, and if the covers are reproduced at all in the reprint, they'll look like chapter dividers. For these "new" readers, what they'll remember are key points in the story. Or not. I don't know, just theorizing on what future collectors will find compelling (maybe nothing) when there's no nostalgia in the equation. Again, I'm talking about story-driven, creator-driven works, not the standard character-driven superhero comic.

 

You're not seriously suggesting that any item would sell for the same individually as it would in a lot, are you..?

 

Were we talking about any item or the WATCHMEN covers specifically?

 

Do you mean "value" or "asking price"...? Because unless #1 was auctioned by itself, and #2-11 were auctioned by themselves, and then all 12 were auctioned together and the exact same sum result was achieved, it's impossible to prove.

 

Right, impossible to prove. But I have a pretty good idea of what the WM OA market is like. I'm confident in saying that if the set was broken up, it would not have netted the seller the same amount as what the set would sell for whole. You can choose to believe that or not.

 

Your original claim was that "selling ALL the covers to Watchmen in a group was a mistake, in my opinion." It is a mistake if he would have netted less. But as I said, I believe he got a better price for them as a set. This is just *my* opinion as well, but with regards to this particular niche (and really, this particular deal), it's an informed one.

 

[Nexus]

BTW.........One of the Watchmen covers is a stat, not OA.

 

One of the covers is a recreation as well. As I understand it, the original was lost/destroyed/misplaced by DC. Dave Gibbons had to recreate it so the set could be complete at auction back in 1992.

 

Another reason why the covers would have been a tougher sell individually, and had more value as a lot.

[sborock]

BTW.........One of the Watchmen covers is a stat, not OA.

 

One of the covers is a recreation as well. As I understand it, the original was lost/destroyed/misplaced by DC. Dave Gibbons had to recreate it so the set could be complete at auction back in 1992.

 

Another reason why the covers would have been a tougher sell individually, and had more value as a lot.

 

Good point!

[heartened]

BTW.........One of the Watchmen covers is a stat, not OA.

 

One of the covers is a recreation as well. As I understand it, the original was lost/destroyed/misplaced by DC. Dave Gibbons had to recreate it so the set could be complete at auction back in 1992.

 

Another reason why the covers would have been a tougher sell individually, and had more value as a lot.

 

Good point!

 

I had the privilege to review all 12 as a possible purchase earlier this year. Beautiful covers, but I couldn't see paying the asking price (or anywhere near it) for the art itself. Significant part of comic book history: yes. Significant art in and of itself: no. I did like 4 of the covers, including the #1, and would have bid/offerred high to get one of those 4, but as a set I passed. Two fo the covers, as folks are mentioning, would be a difficult sell. However, I do feel broken up all the covers would find a home at near or equal to the overall asking price, similar to how the Crisis covers were broken up and realized good prices. Perhaps down the line this will happen, and we will see the ultimate value of these covers.

 

Hari

 

[Nexus]

However, I do feel broken up all the covers would find a home at near or equal to the overall asking price...

 

That may be true, but the fact remains that, as a set, the covers DID achieve that price. The CRISIS set is a bit different, as all the covers are art, and at least three are significant. Contrast that with WM, where you have one significant cover, two which are severely problematic, and limited interest in the rest.

 

I agree with you, btw, in that there are 4 covers I like by themselves (in varying degrees). I wouldn't bother with the rest UNLESS I was able to get all 12 as a set. I believe they display well as a set, like an art installation.

 

Someday, I hope the story of how the covers were shopped, bought, and then withdrawn, will be told.

[heartened]

However, I do feel broken up all the covers would find a home at near or equal to the overall asking price...

 

That may be true, but the fact remains that, as a set, the covers DID achieve that price. The CRISIS set is a bit different, as all the covers are art, and at least three are significant. Contrast that with WM, where you have one significant cover, two which are severely problematic, and limited interest in the rest.

 

I agree with you, btw, in that there are 4 covers I like by themselves (in varying degrees). I wouldn't bother with the rest UNLESS I was able to get all 12 as a set. I believe they display well as a set, like an art installation.

 

Someday, I hope the story of how the covers were shopped, bought, and then withdrawn, will be told.

 

Certainly agree with all of this. On multiple fronts, the covers to Crisis are much more coveted among comic fans. I say comic fans, as most mainstream individuals know Watchmen (especially after the movie) but have no clue what Crisis was.

 

Hari