The Humanization of Church Books

[Straw-Man]

I'm still not following why anyone would celebrate one hoard of comics over some other loose survivors (tiny collections of higher grade books, for example) that aren't classified as a pedigree. To me, 10 books surviving 50 years in the back of grandpa's closet despite all odds is just as interesting a story as someone packing a basement full.

 

I don't care whether or not cgc officially recognizes something as a pedigree. I care that I know a little something extra about the book's history, and in some cases know something about the original owner. It just so happens that a pedigree's history is often well-documented (or at least... better documented than grandpa's stash).

 

Example: I recently realized I have a book from an original owner collection that a fellow forum member unearthed 25 years ago. I was able to learn something about the collection. Few people if anybody else know about it, but I still think it's cool. That little extra connection to the hobby's history is part of why I do this.

 

Larson books would be a more famous example of that. They are sometimes not the highest graded books out there of a particular comic, but it's the knowledge of their history and their original owner that makes them cool.

 

I don't get this at all.

 

If you really want a connection to comic history, you should be far more interested in Jerry's All Stars than the Mile High pedigree. Jerry Bails is a legendary collector. Jerry's All Stars inspired the birth of comic fandom. For folks who want a connection to comic history, the books from a pivotal collection should seem pretty cool, perhaps second only to books from a comic professional's collection.

 

But, Edgar Church wasn't a comic collector at all. He had no demonstrable love of comics. He didn't promote the hobby. He just compiled magazines and comics as source material for swipes in his profession as telephone book ad illustrator. The significance of Mile High books isn't Edgar Church, it's the quality of the comics.

 

But, what deserves a higher price: The Mile High D27 or the Allentown D27? We all know the answer: The higher quality Allentown D27.

 

Quality is what matters, regardless of source. A non-pedigree book in higher quality should not be priced lower than a Mile High book in lesser quality. A Mile High book shouldn't command a "premium" over similar quality books. [Which is not to say that if the Mile High book is higher quality than a book of the same grade, it shouldn't be priced higher. I understand the quality of Mile High books. But, I think you should be paying for the level of quality, not the pedigree designation.]

 

Heck, the "Allentown" books aren't even a real pedigree -- no one knows who the OO was and there were a hundred or so books. There's nothing to distinguish the Allentown "pedigree" from the discovery of a lot of comic collections. And if the Allentown D27 had never gotten a pedigree designation it would still be a legendary book.

 

 

sfcityduck, are you a teacher? because, and don't be offended, all but 7 of your posts are of a lecturing bent, and those 7 are birthday wishes [a couple of those were a little didactic].

[markseifert]

I don't get this at all.

 

If you really want a connection to comic history, you should be far more interested in Jerry's All Stars than the Mile High pedigree. Jerry Bails is a legendary collector. Jerry's All Stars inspired the birth of comic fandom. For folks who want a connection to comic history, the books from a pivotal collection should seem pretty cool, perhaps second only to books from a comic professional's collection.

 

I am mildly interested in Jerry's collection. I'm not much of an All Star collector but sure, it'd be cool to have one. But Jerry is not known for his collection, he is known for his deeds. And indeed, I have a GREAT interest in Alter Ego and other early zines. (SO jealous of the Alter Ego #1 Bedrock posted awhile back!)

 

Similarly: Collections that were owned by creators are cool but interest me only slightly. Again, the creator is not primarily known for owning copies of his work, he is known for the work. And in this case, yeah, I am a collector of vintage art as well. Heck, I even bought an old -script once.

 

Despite Church's intentions, his collection is THE most famous collection in the history of the hobby. I want a little piece of that. How and why the collection was amassed is still interesting, what it meant to the hobby is fascinating. This collection is a special case.

 

Quality is what matters, regardless of source.

 

For my own purposes, and I suspect the purposes of some others, this is incorrect. The source matters. The original owner matters. Knowing a book's provenance is interesting and important. How these things affect value is of secondary importance to me.

[Comicdey]

I was more interested in Jerry's All Stars before the long thread that felt like having a cavity filled.

 

Best book should be highest valued. Tack on some money to any book for pedigree or historic significance, but if the Mile High is an 8.5 with White pages and the no name copy is 9.4 with White pages, you have to go down to presentation. There are many 9.4's that have bad miswraps, poor registration or color separation or color fade. It's about how the book looks to you in hand. Granted the Mile High books "pop" in many cases, and hence the higher value. The plastic label isn't the end all for those books.

 

I only have one mile high book, so I haven't experienced the thrill of ownership, but I've never felt the need to pay 3-10x what other books would cost in similar or better condition when comparing all aspects of the book.

 

 

[Silver Surfer]

 

How and why the collection was amassed is still interesting, what it meant to the hobby is fascinating. This collection is a special case.

 

 

I want to know what possesed Parker to buy a pedigree copy of Hello Pal?

[Straw-Man]

 

How and why the collection was amassed is still interesting, what it meant to the hobby is fascinating. This collection is a special case.

 

 

I want to know what possesed Parker to buy a pedigree copy of Hello Pal?

 

greatest photo cover ever printed that day of that month of that year.

[G.A.tor]

 

How and why the collection was amassed is still interesting, what it meant to the hobby is fascinating. This collection is a special case.

 

 

I want to know what possesed Parker to buy a pedigree copy of Hello Pal?

 

greatest photo cover ever printed that day of that month of that year.

[Rip]

I do agree that certain features like high color reflectivity, ultra white pages and gloss are things that may get overlooked more often due to the "number."

While most MH books look like they were just pulled out of a time machine, some MH books really in my humble opinion don't look much better than other decent HG books from the era. It often depends on where they sat in the stack before Chuck picked them up.

 

Also many other pedigrees like the AT and SF often give the Church books a strong run for their money.

[stagedoorjohnny]

Quality is what matters, regardless of source. A non-pedigree book in higher quality should not be priced lower than a Mile High book in lesser quality. A Mile High book shouldn't command a "premium" over similar quality books.

 

 

 

Agree, but this would depend on what your definition of "quality" is. I've seen Church books with a 1/2" tear, or a couple smaller tears, or a crunched corner grade at 7.5-8.5 that I would much rather have over a non-ped 9.2 of the same book. That's because when you hold and examine the Church book, it is blatantly obvious which book is of higher overall quality.

 

Im going to ask it again. And I am sincerely not trying to be an , just trying to further the discussion. But have you ever held and paged thru a Church book? Because you certainly have an opinion on them and I would like to think your opinion was formed through your own experiences and not from a CGC label. There's more to a book than the number on a CGC label and a lot of collectors know it. Hence the premium paid.

 

 

[stagedoorjohnny]

Also many other pedigrees like the AT and SF often give the Church books a strong run for their money.

 

 

I agree with this. Which is why they get the premium treatment as well, similar to Church books. And there are some peds that do not stack up which is why their premiums are less.

[1962]

I don't get this at all.

 

If you really want a connection to comic history, you should be far more interested in Jerry's All Stars than the Mile High pedigree. Jerry Bails is a legendary collector. Jerry's All Stars inspired the birth of comic fandom. For folks who want a connection to comic history, the books from a pivotal collection should seem pretty cool, perhaps second only to books from a comic professional's collection.

 

I am mildly interested in Jerry's collection. I'm not much of an All Star collector but sure, it'd be cool to have one. But Jerry is not known for his collection, he is known for his deeds. And indeed, I have a GREAT interest in Alter Ego and other early zines. (SO jealous of the Alter Ego #1 Bedrock posted awhile back!)

 

Similarly: Collections that were owned by creators are cool but interest me only slightly. Again, the creator is not primarily known for owning copies of his work, he is known for the work. And in this case, yeah, I am a collector of vintage art as well. Heck, I even bought an old -script once.

 

Despite Church's intentions, his collection is THE most famous collection in the history of the hobby. I want a little piece of that. How and why the collection was amassed is still interesting, what it meant to the hobby is fascinating. This collection is a special case.

 

Quality is what matters, regardless of source.

 

For my own purposes, and I suspect the purposes of some others, this is incorrect. The source matters. The original owner matters. Knowing a book's provenance is interesting and important. How these things affect value is of secondary importance to me.

 

I agree. To me the source and the history matters more then anything with the Church books. I own a portion of the Wonder Woman MH run and that portion comprises some of the best copies of the Church run, but also some of the Monk copies as well as some copies that are restored. I have paid multiples of guide for every copy, including the restored ones. I know it may sound stupid to some to pay extra for a lower grade or restored copy but I don't care, the history of the collection is what really matters to me.

[thedude]

it's all about "Freshness" of a book, and when you hold a MH or AT or SF book, you can thumb through it and see the inside covers both front and back as well as the pages are very newstand fresh with a good smell, and most have very reflective color inks and gloss. I don't own any MHs, but I have had the privalege of thumbing through a few and they do look brand new, no matter what the technical CGC grade may be.

 

this SF book is very "fresh" but has certain technical flaws (small cover tear, small inside tape stain) that bring the CGC grade down to a paltry 8.0. but it's very clean and one of the freshest GA books I've seen.

 

oh yeah, and it's mine.

 

 

 

 

[markseifert]

Damn. That Supes 11 is smokin'.

[thedude]

Damn. That Supes 11 is smokin'.

 

thank ya.

[G.A.tor]

Damn. That Supes 11 is smokin'.

 

thank ya.

definitely proves that all 8.0's are not created equal

[esquirecomics]

I think the days of 3x - 10x guide for Church books, other than significant keys and a few titles, is likely over, at least for the near future. I would say there are several generic reasons for this including, but not necessarily limited to:

 

(1) The existence of the collection has become more historical than special to many. As such, it doesn't carry the weight or novelty that it used to.

 

(2) More and more Church books are becoming available on the open market thus eliminating the seeming "rarity" the pedigree once had (which is astonishing given 22,000 books are in the collection).

 

(3) When many of the books became available for the first time in years on the open market collectors/dealers likely paid a higher price than the books were "worth" because of the timing, i.e., "I need to have that book" or the desire to try and put together a run means someone paid more than they normally would have to ensure they had "that" copy.

 

(4) Numerous other pedigees have since been discovered, and the existence of many designated "collections", which some collectors do not view as having a distinction from "pedigree", have also minimized the previous luster that existed.

 

(5) Economic downtown always has an impact on the market in general, but this may be temporary.

 

Just a thoughts.

[esquirecomics]

if you were a car collector, would you pay a bit more for a certain lincoln town car convertible, vintage '63, that a president was shot in than you would for another of "the same quality?"

 

I would, I would!!!

 

The car would go nicely with this:

 

 

Is that yours?!?!? Incredible!

 

Yep!

 

And this:

 

[Guardian Comics]

As well, didn't Verzyl do paper tests and it was concluded that MH's would last over 400 years, while the next closest, SF's would only last 200? It doesn't affect us now but means something.

 

BTW I'd choose an 8.5 Pedigree, over a 9.2 "regular copy" any day of the week. CGC's technical grade vs overall eye appeal, freshness and provenance, just doesn't appeal to me.

 

Jim

[VintageComics]

The San Fran books (from what I understand) were generally higher technical grade but were not as supple as the Church books.

 

The Church books managed to retain that amazing, floppy/wobbly new comic feel which many books lose over time.

 

I agree with Alton that the San Fran books that I have seen were just hypnotizing in how white and clean they were.

 

Another thing to consider (and this is not to take away from the Church pedigree in any way) is that the Church find, although the greatest find of all time, was also a relatively early find. In the past 30+ years there have been other spectacular finds that have surfaced.

 

At the time, the Church collection would have been the bar or standard to which all other pedigree collections were measured against whether it was grade or page quality. If it was as white as a Church book it was considered white paper. This is because nobody has an absolute page quality reference to what a white page looked like in 1940.

 

Well since then there have been other collections that have surfaced.

 

The Vancouver collection, although very small, was considered to be even whiter and higher grade over all than the Church collection...it just didn't contain the breadth that the Church collection contained.

 

Some of these new collections have shown that although the Church books were a part of the greatest collection of all time, there were books out there that in small portions could rival and in some cases exceed the quality of the Church collection.

[Timely]

Edgar Church wasn't a comic collector at all. He had no demonstrable love of comics. He didn't promote the hobby. He just compiled magazines and comics as source material for swipes in his profession as telephone book ad illustrator.

 

 

This is completely untrue. There are numerous examples of Edgar Church attempting to create his own comic book. If you look on Milehighcomics.com you will see a few of those comic pages drawn by Edgar Church. He wanted to be comic book artist, in fact, he went to NY in the early 1940's in an attempt to become an artist, but he was never offered a job. After a few months of no offers, he went back to Denver.

 

He definitely had a love for comics. It is also obvious that he read many of the books he bought, such as the Flash Comics run and so forth.

 

West

[VintageComics]

(3) When many of the books became available for the first time in years on the open market collectors/dealers likely paid a higher price than the books were "worth" because of the timing, i.e., "I need to have that book" or the desire to try and put together a run means someone paid more than they normally would have to ensure they had "that" copy.

 

 

This is a very big one.

 

When the Church books were first brought to market if you weren't on "the list" of people eligible to buy then you had no shot at the books, so there was literally a frenzy every time an opportunity to buy Church books came around.

 

That frenzy is no longer as intense.