The Humanization of Church Books

[stagedoorjohnny]

Some of these new collections have shown that although the Church books were a part of the greatest collection of all time, there were books out there that in small portions could rival and in some cases exceed the quality of the Church collection.

 

 

If you are talking about page quality, I agree. The Vancouvers and Central Valleys are bone white, stunning. But I still have not seen the colors, registration, and gloss on a lot of these Church books rivaled by anything else. The freshness on some of these Church book covers are just plain sick.

[G.A.tor]

Edgar Church wasn't a comic collector at all. He had no demonstrable love of comics. He didn't promote the hobby. He just compiled magazines and comics as source material for swipes in his profession as telephone book ad illustrator.

 

 

This is completely untrue. There are numerous examples of Edgar Church attempting to create his own comic book. If you look on Milehighcomics.com you will see a few of those comic pages drawn by Edgar Church. He wanted to be comic book artist, in fact, he went to NY in the early 1940's in an attempt to become an artist, but he was never offered a job. After a few months of no offers, he went back to Denver.

 

He definitely had a love for comics. It is also obvious that he read many of the books he bought, such as the Flash Comics run and so forth.

 

West

from one of the foremost church experts (thumbs u

[Dale Roberts]

Some of these new collections have shown that although the Church books were a part of the greatest collection of all time, there were books out there that in small portions could rival and in some cases exceed the quality of the Church collection.

 

 

If you are talking about page quality, I agree. The Vancouvers and Central Valleys are bone white, stunning. But I still have not seen the colors, registration, and gloss on a lot of these Church books rivaled by anything else. The freshness on some of these Church book covers are just plain sick.

 

Here again, the freshness of the book is about condition, not necessarily the collection it came from. You can cherry pick books from other collections which will have the same quality. The unique thing about the Church books is that the freshness is common throughout the collection.

 

However, this should have little to do with the value of individual books. One fresh 9.4 with white pages should have approximately the same value as another equally fresh 9.4 with white pages.

 

That being said, the Church collection should have a special place in the hobby due to the notoriety and history of the collection. I don't think the same should be said of several of the other recognized pedigrees.

 

At one point, pedigree books were recognized as some of the best examples of the books within the hobby. This is no longer necessarily the case. In my opinion, most books should be viewed in light of its own particular unique characteristics, not in light of how great the collection was.

[sfcityduck]

One fresh 9.4 with white pages should have approximately the same value as another equally fresh 9.4 with white pages. ... In my opinion, most books should be viewed in light of its own particular unique characteristics, not in light of how great the collection was.

 

I just don't see how anyone can disagree with the above statement.

 

Again, I'm not, as some apparently think, disputing the undisputable: Many of the MH books are the highest quality in existence.

 

Instead, I'm saying that merely because a book is the MH copy does not mean that is the case, and the mere "MH" tag shouldn't entitle a book to a higher price than a copy in the same or even greater quality.

 

 

[G.A.tor]

One fresh 9.4 with white pages should have approximately the same value as another equally fresh 9.4 with white pages. ... In my opinion, most books should be viewed in light of its own particular unique characteristics, not in light of how great the collection was.

 

I just don't see how anyone can disagree with the above statement.

 

Again, I'm not, as some apparently think, disputing the undisputable: Many of the MH books are the highest quality in existence.

 

Instead, I'm saying that merely because a book is the MH copy does not mean that is the case, and the mere "MH" tag shouldn't entitle a book to a higher price than a copy in the same or even greater quality.

 

it shouldn't "entitle" it I agree, but the lure of owning a "mile high" as been part of the hobby as long as i can remember...it is an intangible desire, one that is not quantitatively equated over qualitatively identical books... in other words, folks just like to pay more (or at least are willing to pay more) to have a Mile high... at least most folks (thumbs u

[MrBedrock]

I was under the impression that Mile Highs were always priced at multiples because, by being part of that collection, they were known to be of higher quality. Being part of the collection meant that, more than likely, that was the best existing copy of that particular book. I never met anyone who said, "wow, this was Edgar's book and I want to pay a lot for it because he was a neat guy." Though he did get some big kudos for actually having the genius, foresight, or simple dumb luck to have saved them in the first place. The same goes for Lamont Larson, Tom Reilly (or his family) and all the other original buyers of these great comics. I, for one, am very happy they bought and kept them in such great shape. But having a vocation that has for years allowed me the privilege to buy collections from original buyers I can say with a high degree of certainty that none of these guys had any great collector's passion for the books. They kept them, and then sold them, as simple as that. We love the books because of the remarkable condition they are in, not because of who originally bought them.

With the introduction of CGC "the best copy" is now quantifiable to a large extent. And, lo and behold, in a majority of cases the Mile High copy IS the best. But the runner up is sometimes not that far behind. We have so much more info at our fingertips these days that we are able to make a much more informed decision as to what a given comic is worth to each of us. The days of blindly paying multiples for a book simply because it came from a certain collection and therefore was probably the best known are gone. Now we know if it is or if it isn't...and by how much.

[sfcityduck]

Edgar Church wasn't a comic collector at all. He had no demonstrable love of comics. He didn't promote the hobby. He just compiled magazines and comics as source material for swipes in his profession as telephone book ad illustrator.

 

 

This is completely untrue. There are numerous examples of Edgar Church attempting to create his own comic book. If you look on Milehighcomics.com you will see a few of those comic pages drawn by Edgar Church. He wanted to be comic book artist, in fact, he went to NY in the early 1940's in an attempt to become an artist, but he was never offered a job. After a few months of no offers, he went back to Denver.

 

He definitely had a love for comics. It is also obvious that he read many of the books he bought, such as the Flash Comics run and so forth.

 

West

 

Edgar Church was a commercial artist, so I'm not surprised that he once tried to break into comics -- a form of commercial artistry. To me, though, that doesn't indicate he had any more love for comics than he did for any of the other types of commercial art he did, and it doesn't show any where near the love or dedication to comics shown by guys like Jerry Bails who helped found comic fandom.

 

I'd be curious to know what the evidence is that Edgar Church read the Flash Comics run (are they lesser quality?), but I'm not surprised if he read comics. Millions of people did so, and it would make sense for him to do so if he was looking for material to swipe and source from. But, I think its clear he didn't amass a collection of 22K comics because he loved to read them the way comic collectors do. He did so mainly for his own obsessive professional artist reasons.

 

Edgar Church's one small intersection with comic fandom was selling his stash, of which he had no idea of its true value or import, to Chuck Rozanski. It is Chuck Rozanski who deserves the real credit for creating the concept of "pedigree" comics and multiple guide values. He created the marketing concepts.

 

Edgar Church was more a victim of his ignorance and indifference to comic collecting than anything else.

 

From my perspective, the earmarks of "historical import" that might increase a comic's value are things like:

 

* used in a lawsuit (e.g. Court copies);

 

* from a publisher's files (Gaines copies);

 

* contains extra information from the publishers/creators (pay copies);

 

* from a significant creator's own collection; and

 

* from a significant collector's own collection (Bails).

 

The fact it came from a kid's collection in D.C. (Bangzoom), an unknown person's collection in Pennsylvania (Allentown), or even Edgar Church's house in Denver isn't the kind of history that adds value to me. All comics came from somewhere. The quality of the books might impress the heck out of me. The high grade MH comics certainly do impress me. But that's because of the quality, not the history of the collection.

 

I can tell that the tide hasn't quite turned with me on this one. And, no, I'm not a teacher, something far worse than that.

[sfcityduck]

I was under the impression that Mile Highs were always priced at multiples because, by being part of that collection, they were known to be of higher quality. Being part of the collection meant that, more than likely, that was the best existing copy of that particular book. I never met anyone who said, "wow, this was Edgar's book and I want to pay a lot for it because he was a neat guy." Though he did get some big kudos for actually having the genius, foresight, or simple dumb luck to have saved them in the first place. The same goes for Lamont Larson, Tom Reilly (or his family) and all the other original buyers of these great comics. I, for one, am very happy they bought and kept them in such great shape. But having a vocation that has for years allowed me the privilege to buy collections from original buyers I can say with a high degree of certainty that none of these guys had any great collector's passion for the books. They kept them, and then sold them, as simple as that. We love the books because of the remarkable condition they are in, not because of who originally bought them.

With the introduction of CGC "the best copy" is now quantifiable to a large extent. And, lo and behold, in a majority of cases the Mile High copy IS the best. But the runner up is sometimes not that far behind. We have so much more info at our fingertips these days that we are able to make a much more informed decision as to what a given comic is worth to each of us. The days of blindly paying multiples for a book simply because it came from a certain collection and therefore was probably the best known are gone. Now we know if it is or if it isn't...and by how much.

 

Or maybe I'm not an insufficiently_thoughtful_person.

[esquirecomics]

Personally I don't see any of the espoused positions as "right" or "wrong".

 

In fact, I find the two substantive posts above by Bedrock and sfcityduck to be both very insightful and full of logic. (thumbs u

[G.A.tor]

I was under the impression that Mile Highs were always priced at multiples because, by being part of that collection, they were known to be of higher quality. Being part of the collection meant that, more than likely, that was the best existing copy of that particular book. I never met anyone who said, "wow, this was Edgar's book and I want to pay a lot for it because he was a neat guy." Though he did get some big kudos for actually having the genius, foresight, or simple dumb luck to have saved them in the first place. The same goes for Lamont Larson, Tom Reilly (or his family) and all the other original buyers of these great comics. I, for one, am very happy they bought and kept them in such great shape. But having a vocation that has for years allowed me the privilege to buy collections from original buyers I can say with a high degree of certainty that none of these guys had any great collector's passion for the books. They kept them, and then sold them, as simple as that. We love the books because of the remarkable condition they are in, not because of who originally bought them.

With the introduction of CGC "the best copy" is now quantifiable to a large extent. And, lo and behold, in a majority of cases the Mile High copy IS the best. But the runner up is sometimes not that far behind. We have so much more info at our fingertips these days that we are able to make a much more informed decision as to what a given comic is worth to each of us. The days of blindly paying multiples for a book simply because it came from a certain collection and therefore was probably the best known are gone. Now we know if it is or if it isn't...and by how much.

good god man, come up for air and take a breath... your "lungs" are not "that" big

[Dale Roberts]

I was under the impression that Mile Highs were always priced at multiples because, by being part of that collection, they were known to be of higher quality. Being part of the collection meant that, more than likely, that was the best existing copy of that particular book. I never met anyone who said, "wow, this was Edgar's book and I want to pay a lot for it because he was a neat guy." Though he did get some big kudos for actually having the genius, foresight, or simple dumb luck to have saved them in the first place. The same goes for Lamont Larson, Tom Reilly (or his family) and all the other original buyers of these great comics. I, for one, am very happy they bought and kept them in such great shape. But having a vocation that has for years allowed me the privilege to buy collections from original buyers I can say with a high degree of certainty that none of these guys had any great collector's passion for the books. They kept them, and then sold them, as simple as that. We love the books because of the remarkable condition they are in, not because of who originally bought them.

With the introduction of CGC "the best copy" is now quantifiable to a large extent. And, lo and behold, in a majority of cases the Mile High copy IS the best. But the runner up is sometimes not that far behind. We have so much more info at our fingertips these days that we are able to make a much more informed decision as to what a given comic is worth to each of us. The days of blindly paying multiples for a book simply because it came from a certain collection and therefore was probably the best known are gone. Now we know if it is or if it isn't...and by how much.

 

pretty eloquent for a tall dork from Texas

[adamstrange]

The fact it came from a kid's collection in D.C. (Bangzoom), an unknown person's collection in Pennsylvania (Allentown), or even Edgar Church's house in Denver isn't the kind of history that adds value to me.

 

I welcome differences in the approach to collecting because if everyone collected just like me, the books I want would be much, much more expensive.

 

The Church collection changed the perception of what "mint" meant as well as the multiples that should be paid for books. It was influential in a collecting trend toward white-paged copies and in the creation of the Gerber Guide, a very significant event that also altered the comics market. Yes, some small collections have come along with some better copies, but the Church collection is staggering in it's overall quantity and quality and historical impact. It's reasonable to assume that there will always be "some" premium for a Church copy over any other that is perceived, in all aspects, as being equivalent. I think the Church premium decreased over time and there's potential for it to decrease further, but, to me, the most likely scenario is that it's leveled off.

[adamstrange]

You can cherry pick books from other collections which will have the same quality. The unique thing about the Church books is that the freshness is common throughout the collection.

 

The Church collection has set a very high standard for state of preservation that is very difficult to find in other copies, even when they come from other pedigree collections. For a publisher like Centaur, I haven't heard of or seen any copy of any issue that is the equivalent to any Church copy from that publisher. It's even harder to find copies that exceed that Church standard, though they definitely exist.

 

If you were able to look at the entire set of copies of an average GA issue, how many would realistically be at the Church quality or better? My experience suggests that it wouldn't, on average, be more than a handful. So when someone says that 9.4 copy X is just as fresh as the Church 9.4 copy I'm a little skeptical. If you don't have the books side by side out of the holder, how would you know? There may other information available to give you confidence on some books (especially the big keys) or the book may hail from another pedigree with a known quality (e.g. 'Frisco, CV etc), but, absent that, folks tend to go with the "sure thing" over the "maybe," and that results in the higher premium for the Church copy.

 

 

[MrBedrock]

 

The Church collection has set a very high standard for state of preservation that is very difficult to find in other copies, even when they come from other pedigree collections. For a publisher like Centaur, I haven't heard of or seen any copy of any issue that is the equivalent to any Church copy from that publisher. It's even harder to find copies that exceed that Church standard, though they definitely exist.

I know this is single instance, and there is always the possibility that this book has some lost pedigree status, but it is definitely equivalent to any pedigree copy...

[adamstrange]

I remember that copy!

[jbcomicbox]

I think the days of 3x - 10x guide for Church books, other than significant keys and a few titles, is likely over, at least for the near future. I would say there are several generic reasons for this including, but not necessarily limited to:

 

(1) The existence of the collection has become more historical than special to many. As such, it doesn't carry the weight or novelty that it used to.

 

(2) More and more Church books are becoming available on the open market thus eliminating the seeming "rarity" the pedigree once had (which is astonishing given 22,000 books are in the collection).

 

(3) When many of the books became available for the first time in years on the open market collectors/dealers likely paid a higher price than the books were "worth" because of the timing, i.e., "I need to have that book" or the desire to try and put together a run means someone paid more than they normally would have to ensure they had "that" copy.

 

(4) Numerous other pedigees have since been discovered, and the existence of many designated "collections", which some collectors do not view as having a distinction from "pedigree", have also minimized the previous luster that existed.

 

(5) Economic downtown always has an impact on the market in general, but this may be temporary.

 

Just a thoughts.

 

...and my 4 cents is the recent Diaspora scattering of former Church runs....Something awesome about a run which cannot be duplicated. I have hung on to some of my runs (Mystery Men, Fantastic, Wonder/Wonderworld). Somehow "Church books" use to imply having a run of the books. But like all things, even that is not immune the inevitable change, dictated in no small part by the present cost.

 

Other stray thought of Church books is that they are the only books that look better OUT of the mylar than in it. I have a couple of books which glow in the dark!

 

jb

[Timely]

Edgar Church was a commercial artist, so I'm not surprised that he once tried to break into comics -- a form of commercial artistry. To me, though, that doesn't indicate he had any more love for comics than he did for any of the other types of commercial art he did, and it doesn't show any where near the love or dedication to comics shown by guys like Jerry Bails who helped found comic fandom.

 

I'd be curious to know what the evidence is that Edgar Church read the Flash Comics run (are they lesser quality?), but I'm not surprised if he read comics. Millions of people did so, and it would make sense for him to do so if he was looking for material to swipe and source from. But, I think its clear he didn't amass a collection of 22K comics because he loved to read them the way comic collectors do. He did so mainly for his own obsessive professional artist reasons.

 

Edgar Church's one small intersection with comic fandom was selling his stash, of which he had no idea of its true value or import, to Chuck Rozanski. It is Chuck Rozanski who deserves the real credit for creating the concept of "pedigree" comics and multiple guide values. He created the marketing concepts.

 

Edgar Church was more a victim of his ignorance and indifference to comic collecting than anything else.

 

From my perspective, the earmarks of "historical import" that might increase a comic's value are things like:

 

* used in a lawsuit (e.g. Court copies);

 

* from a publisher's files (Gaines copies);

 

* contains extra information from the publishers/creators (pay copies);

 

* from a significant creator's own collection; and

 

* from a significant collector's own collection (Bails).

 

The fact it came from a kid's collection in D.C. (Bangzoom), an unknown person's collection in Pennsylvania (Allentown), or even Edgar Church's house in Denver isn't the kind of history that adds value to me. All comics came from somewhere. The quality of the books might impress the heck out of me. The high grade MH comics certainly do impress me. But that's because of the quality, not the history of the collection.

 

I can tell that the tide hasn't quite turned with me on this one. And, no, I'm not a teacher, something far worse than that.

 

Many of the MH Flash's have reading wear/creases.

 

Actually, it is Chuck's wife Nan who deserves the credit for multiple guide values. It was her idea to ask more for than guide for these books. She told Chuck it was common in other hobbies for outstanding examples to go for more than guide prices...& Chuck followed through with the pricing structure based on his grade of the book and the publisher of the book.

 

Everyone who kept the comics that are still around today had a reason behind it, laziness, pack-rat mentality, love of the book, hopes for significant value in the future, dumb luck, etc. I would not say Gaines books are a "better" pedigree because Gaines kept them vs Church keeping his for his reasons. In fact, Al Feldstein told me over dinner that Gaines had no "master plan" of keeping all those books because he knew they would be something special one day, he kept them for legal reasons! Each time a publisher started a new title it cost a lot of money to secure that title. Feldstein said Gaines was being a cheap businessman! Gaines wanted to have proof that his books were already published in case he was recharged a fee to secure a title he was already using! Nothing more.

 

West

[adamstrange]

In fact, Al Feldstein told me over dinner that Gaines had no "master plan" of keeping all those books because he knew they would be something special one day, he kept them for legal reasons!

 

Next you'll tell me there isn't an Easter Bunny!

[BangZoom]

I would not say Gaines books are a "better" pedigree because Gaines kept them vs Church keeping his for his reasons. In fact, Al Feldstein told me over dinner that Gaines had no "master plan" of keeping all those books because he knew they would be something special one day, he kept them for legal reasons! Each time a publisher started a new title it cost a lot of money to secure that title. Feldstein said Gaines was being a cheap businessman! Gaines wanted to have proof that his books were already published in case he was recharged a fee to secure a title he was already using! Nothing more.

 

Why did Gaines keep the original artwork?

[Timely]

In fact, Al Feldstein told me over dinner that Gaines had no "master plan" of keeping all those books because he knew they would be something special one day, he kept them for legal reasons!

 

Next you'll tell me there isn't an Easter Bunny!

 

I never kick a kid when he is down!

 

West