Miller DD over 100k with the vig

[Nexus]

Absolutely, Wes. Those other examples you cited are outliers as well. I mentioned Perez AVENGERS specifically since both Dan (Bronty) and Hari referenced it.

 

Seeing those big numbers changes perceptions. Whereas before the $100K DD sale, collectors *might* have begrudgingly (if at all) paid $50K for a 2nd tier Miller DD cover (and knowing they overpaid), now they may view that price/value more favorably.

 

We'll see what happens when a 2nd tier Miller DD cover hits the market.

[chrisco37]

I know there's a standing $100K offer for a non-ASM cover.

 

Hulk #340?

 

Spawn #1?

 

[comix4fun]

Absolutely, Wes. Those other examples you cited are outliers as well. I mentioned Perez AVENGERS specifically since both Dan (Bronty) and Hari referenced it.

 

Seeing those big numbers changes perceptions. Whereas before the $100K DD sale, collectors *might* have begrudgingly (if at all) paid $50K for a 2nd tier Miller DD cover (and knowing they overpaid), now they may view that price/value more favorably.

 

We'll see what happens when a 2nd tier Miller DD cover hits the market.

 

 

It's not going to be a long wait right? There's another one coming up in the next Heritage signature auction someone mentioned.

[Nexus]

Yes, but not sure it was on here. And that's another important distinction to be made with these record sales: All these prices were achieved privately, not via auction (with the exception of Bolland KJ). One lone interested party, at those prices, for the most part.

[CollectingFool]

A perfect storm of nostalgia, an extremely skilled/experienced stealth dealer, and ONE motivated buyer.

 

Stealth dealer. That is a great description! I'd say it's funny if it wasn't so perfectly descriptive.

 

 

 

[Galactus]

Frankly, I've always been suprised by the Perez Avengers prices, but I do know they have hit that high.

 

Just so everyone doesn't get the wrong impression...this was ONE Perez AVENGERS cover...ONE sale...at $90K. A total outlier as far as I'm concerned. A perfect storm of nostalgia, an extremely skilled/experienced stealth dealer, and ONE motivated buyer. The one buyer, of course, being the key. At that level, I don't think there's any rationalization...no thought of relative value or aesthetics...just one collector with the means to acquire his personal Rosebud.

 

On the other hand, there are multiple McFarlane covers (and even certain interior splashes) which would be right up there with the current record holder if they became available. I know there's a standing $100K offer for a non-ASM cover. Not my thing. But it's silly to mock these guys who are spending this money. They can afford it and what anyone thinks about the art, or whatever the predictions are for the market down the road, means absolutely zero compared to the fact that this was the cover to the comic that got them through tonsil surgery when they were 10 years old.

 

For the rest of us, we just have to be careful not to make assumptions about the rest of the market based on these sales. One outlier $90K sale of a Perez AVENGERS cover has no bearing on other Perez AVENGERS covers, or Perez panel pages, or non-AVENGERS Perez work from that period, or AVENGERS by another artist, etc.

 

Nexus whilst you are absolutely correct that making assumptions based on these top tier pieces and correlating some sort of price between these and lesser pieces should not be done, dealers do that all the time by quoting these sales in their private sales to high end individuals of similar pieces. Now whilst i totally agree with your viewpoint, people need to be educated to see past this but without the information to hand, how does one know if a $100k sale should be taken in isolation or the part of some larger price push upwards?

 

Oh and whilst you are correct that it was one sole Avengers cover that sold at that price, i know of 2 standing offers on two Avengers covers that are for the same high price.

[Galactus]

Felix,

The same can be said for all the examples above. The examples above all seem to represent outlier prices rather than average prices.

 

JR jr ASM cover with Hobgoblin might sell well in excess of what other issues go for.

 

Crisis #7 cover is probably the one that has received a dispproportionately high offer.

 

Layton IM demon in a bottle cover can sell for high numbers, but I'm not sure this is the case across the board.

 

It is always fun to hear about the record breaking prices, but as you suggested, when these outliers are used to formulate pricing for average covers and pages, then these examples can be misleading.

 

Layton pieces in general are no where near the price of his better works, but into the $10-15k is quite the norm for most of the better pieces privately.

 

Oh and I think some people would be surprised by how much the top 3 covers of the Crisis run would fetch. We will never know how much Hans has been offered for his #1, but Hari what about your #8 ?

[Galactus]

A perfect storm of nostalgia, an extremely skilled/experienced stealth dealer, and ONE motivated buyer.

 

Stealth dealer. That is a great description! I'd say it's funny if it wasn't so perfectly descriptive.

 

 

 

Yeah i would agree totally except for the fact that you missed out the bit about external influence/cohersion tactics being applied by "another individual" to achieve the end result.

[supapimp]

i think millers work on his GN 'elektra lives again' has to be thrown into the discussion of some of his best work. sure, his wife LV did the colour, but the pencils were totally different than any of his early DD work.

[heartened]

Felix,

The same can be said for all the examples above. The examples above all seem to represent outlier prices rather than average prices.

 

JR jr ASM cover with Hobgoblin might sell well in excess of what other issues go for.

 

Crisis #7 cover is probably the one that has received a dispproportionately high offer.

 

Layton IM demon in a bottle cover can sell for high numbers, but I'm not sure this is the case across the board.

 

It is always fun to hear about the record breaking prices, but as you suggested, when these outliers are used to formulate pricing for average covers and pages, then these examples can be misleading.

 

Layton pieces in general are no where near the price of his better works, but into the $10-15k is quite the norm for most of the better pieces privately.

 

Oh and I think some people would be surprised by how much the top 3 covers of the Crisis run would fetch. We will never know how much Hans has been offered for his #1, but Hari what about your #8 ?

 

Hi,

 

I've publically stated in the past that it's probably worth 50-75K, and that was about 2 years ago now. I wouldn't sell at anywhere near that price, but I would value it there, or maybe closer to 100K these days (it is assuredly one of the most recognizable and important covers from the 80s, by a great artist, on a series that was read by most at that time).

 

As for offers, I've really not had offers, but that's mainlly because anyone who knows me also knows that I wouldn't sell it, so it's not worth making an offer. Most know I consider it one of my favorites. I've also become much more private in terms of my collection (I used to have a personal website), mainly due to work and time-related reasons, so there are increasing numbers of collectors who just don't know what's in my collection. Most new collectors wouldn't know I have this cover, for example.

 

I'm actually trying to find time to scan everything and start putting them up again, but may have to outsource that work! I have actually been fairly busy buying over the past year, and would be happy to share the scans.

 

Hari

 

[jbud73]

A general musing regarding Miller - do most of you guys believe that his art (or rather a small amount of his art) should be so much more expensive than any of his peers?

Absolutely. When you think of artists of the 1980s, there are 2 that tower over the rest: Miller and Byrne.

 

In the next tier I would put Perez (although personally I`m not a huge fan), Bolland, MacFarlane and Jim Lee, although I really think of MacFarlane and Lee as artists of the 90s, notwithstanding that some of their best work was in the late 1980s.

 

Working on the presumption that both art and story need to be at the top of the collective heap, to have a shot at the $100k barrier, what titles/story arcs would you say that the Starlin's/Romita Jnr's etc have done that could possibly attain this level (and in the case of Captain Marvel and Starlin, have they already have surpassed this level ?)

None.

 

You really think that none of these "second tier" artists works warrant the 100k barrier..... Knowing some of the private sales that have gone down of late with those specific artists, i can tell you that quite a few of them have approached that barrier and if certain pieces were ever made available would easily surpass that level, but as always Its interesting getting others peoples perspectives on artists that i follow greatly, just to see how the general opinion differs from those of the active collectors going after some of these higher end pieces.

 

So lets mix it up a bit, given the following artists/titles, what prices would you say that the best cover in that run is worth (take a guess if you dont have a clue) -

 

Starlin and his run on Captain Marvel

Romita Jnr and his run on the 80's Amazing Spidey

Romita Jnr and his run on Uncanny X-Men

Perez and his run of the 80's Avengers

Perez and his run of Crisis on Infinite Earths

Bolland and his Killing Joke work

McFarlane and his run on Amazing Spidey

Layton and his run on the 80's Iron Man

Well, that's not exactly the question you were asking. I consider the 2nd tier of 80s art to be Perez, Bolland, MacFarlane and Lee. I'm not knowledgeable about OA prices, but my guess is that there is work by Bolland (eg, cover of Killing Joke), and maybe MacFarlane and Lee, that could break $100K.

 

I actually consider Starlin to be more 1970s than 1980s, but I would put him in a lower tier than 2nd tier when considering his 1980s work (and I'm one of those who loved Dreadstar). I would lump Layton into the same caterory. Romita Jnr I would put in 10th tier (if that high). And no, I don't think any of their work would break $100K. Starlin's cover to the Death of Captain Marvel graphic novel might do very well, but don't know about $100K.

 

No love for Romita Jr?

 

I stopped collecting X-Men for 5 years after Romita Jr's "I'm trying to be Sienkiewicz" run in the early 300s. Well the story really went down hill too.

 

The three artists I loved in the 82-87 period or more pointedly whose artwork stood out on the comic racks were: Smith - Sienkiewicz and Perez. Those three were the ones that drew my eye and said wow that's awesome. Perez really was "the hot artist" for quite a few years in the early to mid-80s.

[Galactus]

Yeah Paul Smith's run on both X-Men and Doctor Strange was amazing. The prices being asked for his covers aren't too bad either Has anyone heard of them selling at those prices though ?

[RockMyAmadeus]

The market for Bolland stuff (and this is clearly not news to anyone reading this) is incredibly strong, especially for an artist who has done so little interior work, and whose actual books don't command a premium as back issues themselves because it's "Brian Bolland art."

 

Killing Joke cover passing $100K?

 

Without batting an eye, I suspect. I doubt it would have problems finding $150K.

 

He's another example of an artist whose output is sparse (yes, I know he's done 10 gazillion covers, but Byrne's FF run alone, interiors and covers, tops Bolland's numbers), and whose work carries no premium in the back issue market, but whose desireability in the OA arena is off the charts.

 

He's just that desired.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh, and JRJR is a hack who has overdeveloped his "style" to the point of absurdity.

 

When he was doing Uncanny from 1983-1986, it was pleasant and fun...now, it's just angular and Bart Searsian boxy.

 

Bleagh.

 

There, I said it.

[CollectingFool]

A perfect storm of nostalgia, an extremely skilled/experienced stealth dealer, and ONE motivated buyer.

Stealth dealer. That is a great description! I'd say it's funny if it wasn't so perfectly descriptive.

Yeah i would agree totally except for the fact that you missed out the bit about external influence/cohersion tactics being applied by "another individual" to achieve the end result.

 

I'm familiar with the events and some of the more colorful practices of others. I think one day I'm just going to write them all down and put them on a website somewhere. I've thought about doing that several times. Don't know if I should name names or not. Still weighing the pros and cons of it.

 

 

 

 

 

[comix4fun]

The market for Bolland stuff (and this is clearly not news to anyone reading this) is incredibly strong, especially for an artist who has done so little interior work, and whose actual books don't command a premium as back issues themselves because it's "Brian Bolland art."

 

Killing Joke cover passing $100K?

 

Without batting an eye, I suspect. I doubt it would have problems finding $150K.

 

He's another example of an artist whose output is sparse (yes, I know he's done 10 gazillion covers, but Byrne's FF run alone, interiors and covers, tops Bolland's numbers), and whose work carries no premium in the back issue market, but whose desireability in the OA arena is off the charts.

 

He's just that desired.

 

 

 

See, I always thought that the Byrne/Austin X-men run were sought after because of the storyline, the first appearances, the deaths, etc etc and that the price they demand wasn't a judgment of Byrne's penciling. Cockrum's art was not as pleasing to the eye as Byrne's on that run but the Cockrum books are the most expensive of the run, by far.

 

Killing Joke is on it's 15th printing, it commands a nice spot on the desirability scale.

 

Brian would not allow anyone to ink his pencil line, that's a key factor. If you remove Camelot 3000 from the mix, there isn't a notable piece of Bolland art that is not ALL Bolland. If John wasn't working with great great inkers all those years I don't know if he would have been so prolific.

 

 

Also speaking from experience, you've never seen a perfect piece of OA until you've seen a Bolland piece of OA. I have seen, literally hundreds of his pieces, and I can count on one hand the amount of times I have seen even a single spot of white out on a page for corrective purposes. The art itself is just perfect, pristine. It's something that you don't see all that often in this hobby, especially since most of the art was created for publication with no eye towards resale.

[comix4fun]

A perfect storm of nostalgia, an extremely skilled/experienced stealth dealer, and ONE motivated buyer.

Stealth dealer. That is a great description! I'd say it's funny if it wasn't so perfectly descriptive.

Yeah i would agree totally except for the fact that you missed out the bit about external influence/cohersion tactics being applied by "another individual" to achieve the end result.

 

I'm familiar with the events and some of the more colorful practices of others. I think one day I'm just going to write them all down and put them on a website somewhere. I've thought about doing that several times. Don't know if I should name names or not. Still weighing the pros and cons of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And those that are pro's at cons. (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

 

Also speaking from experience, you've never seen a perfect piece of OA until you've seen a Bolland piece of OA. I have seen, literally hundreds of his pieces, and I can count on one hand the amount of times I have seen even a single spot of white out on a page for corrective purposes. The art itself is just perfect, pristine. It's something that you don't see all that often in this hobby, especially since most of the art was created for publication with no eye towards resale.

 

I saw the cover to Camelot 3000 #1, I think in SD, ad it was mind blowing. I try to make it a habit of looking at anything dealers have of his or Zeck at any con I'm at.

 

[comix4fun]

 

 

Also speaking from experience, you've never seen a perfect piece of OA until you've seen a Bolland piece of OA. I have seen, literally hundreds of his pieces, and I can count on one hand the amount of times I have seen even a single spot of white out on a page for corrective purposes. The art itself is just perfect, pristine. It's something that you don't see all that often in this hobby, especially since most of the art was created for publication with no eye towards resale.

 

I saw the cover to Camelot 3000 #1, I think in SD, ad it was mind blowing. I try to make it a habit of looking at anything dealers have of his or Zeck at any con I'm at.

 

 

 

 

ooh, That reminds me. The covers to Camelot 3000 are all Bolland it was only the interiors that were inked by others.

 

Albert just sold the cover to 12 I think. It showed up in CAF. He had that one in Chicago, so nice.

[jbud73]

A perfect storm of nostalgia, an extremely skilled/experienced stealth dealer, and ONE motivated buyer.

Stealth dealer. That is a great description! I'd say it's funny if it wasn't so perfectly descriptive.

Yeah i would agree totally except for the fact that you missed out the bit about external influence/cohersion tactics being applied by "another individual" to achieve the end result.

 

I'm familiar with the events and some of the more colorful practices of others. I think one day I'm just going to write them all down and put them on a website somewhere. I've thought about doing that several times. Don't know if I should name names or not. Still weighing the pros and cons of it.

 

 

 

 

 

Name names, promise you won't get banned at Hop Sing's and maybe Arch will even let it be a sticky if you post it here. At least create a thread with a link, or maybe in your sig line