Miller DD over 100k with the vig

[RockMyAmadeus]

A general musing regarding Miller - do most of you guys believe that his art (or rather a small amount of his art) should be so much more expensive than any of his peers?

 

Obviously select Byrne pieces have been selling privately for around the $100k mark for a few years and again select Perez pieces have also achieved close to that amount, but what of other great artists whose runs in the 70's/80's garnered them great attraction - Starlin, Grell, Romita Jnr, Layton ?

 

Working on the presumption that both art and story need to be at the top of the collective heap, to have a shot at the $100k barrier, what titles/story arcs would you say that the Starlin's/Romita Jnr's etc have done that could possibly attain this level (and in the case of Captain Marvel and Starlin, have they already have surpassed this level ?)

 

 

Yes. Regardless of how aesthetically pleasing some people do or do not find Miller's work, the fact is, the man is one of the giants of the industry.

 

As one of the first generation of writer-artists, Miller's phenomenal storytelling ability is what sets him apart from his peers. What has been copied and imitated over the intervening years was essentially invented and expertly crafted by Frank Miller in the late 70's/80's.

 

As tth said, there are two giants of the Cronze era: Miller and Byrne. Everyone else is second tier compared to these two.

[supapimp]

i can't believe you left out DD 169, classic insane bullseye cover.

[NelsonAI]

........As one of the first generation of writer-artists, Miller's phenomenal storytelling ability is what sets him apart from his peers. What has been copied and imitated over the intervening years was essentially invented and expertly crafted by Frank Miller in the late 70's/80's.

 

I love Miller but let's not forget that he copied and imitated Will Eisner in terms of storytelling. Miller has often said he based Elektra off of an Eisner femme fatale from The Spirit. Miller's a big fan of Eisner which is why he opted to do The Spirit movie.

 

Pick up some reprints and you'll see some of the best writing/storytelling of any era.

 

Cheers!

N.

[Bronty]

A general musing regarding Miller - do most of you guys believe that his art (or rather a small amount of his art) should be so much more expensive than any of his peers?

Absolutely. When you think of artists of the 1980s, there are 2 that tower over the rest: Miller and Byrne.

 

?)

None.

 

And where Byrne flamed out in the 90s miller was still going strong, and kept on going into the 00s (aughts?). I have a ton of respect for guys whose work remains at a high level over time or in some cases actually gets better - guys like kirby and miller, and more recently bolland and (art) adams too. Guys like byrne that are huge for a few years and then their talents basically fizzle out are far more the norm, sadly. For that reason, in my mind at least Miller's overall career towers over Byrne's. (even though their 80s contributions might be comparable).

[theloveforart]

I love it how BRONTY always finds a way to put down John Byrne when a chance is given. Buddy the artist worked on every major comic book that MARVEL had and the staple character Super-man for DC. He did not fizzle out as you say BRONTY, he was burnt out, very big difference. To me Byrne was in another league when it came down to comparing him to any other artist in that time period...

 

"I have a ton of respect for guys whose work remains at a high level over time or in some cases actually gets better - guys like kirby" REALLY you think that Kirbys work got better with time... that i find funny....

[Bronty]

Yes it did. Compare his 1940s work (newsboy legion, anyone?) to his 60s marvel work.

 

Now compare john's 1980 work to his 2000 work. Who got better in 20 years and who got worse? Kirby got better and John got worse. That's just the way it is. Sure the last 5 or 10 years of kirby aren't pretty but I find it telling that you focus on kirby's output when he was what, 70 years old? Let's look at Byrne's work, or virtually anyone's work, when they are 70. It won't be pretty either.

 

You seem to think I have it in for Byrne? Pretty funny considering I like his peak period work a lot. I am a huge fan of his FF Run.

 

I mentioned his name because RMA was discussing byrne and miller. Not sure why I am even explaining myself to you, get the byrne chip off your shoulder please. It gets real old listening to you get touchy every time his name is brought up and taking every critique as a slander

 

 

[Galactus]

A general musing regarding Miller - do most of you guys believe that his art (or rather a small amount of his art) should be so much more expensive than any of his peers?

Absolutely. When you think of artists of the 1980s, there are 2 that tower over the rest: Miller and Byrne.

 

In the next tier I would put Perez (although personally I`m not a huge fan), Bolland, MacFarlane and Jim Lee, although I really think of MacFarlane and Lee as artists of the 90s, notwithstanding that some of their best work was in the late 1980s.

 

Working on the presumption that both art and story need to be at the top of the collective heap, to have a shot at the $100k barrier, what titles/story arcs would you say that the Starlin's/Romita Jnr's etc have done that could possibly attain this level (and in the case of Captain Marvel and Starlin, have they already have surpassed this level ?)

None.

 

You really think that none of these "second tier" artists works warrant the 100k barrier..... Knowing some of the private sales that have gone down of late with those specific artists, i can tell you that quite a few of them have approached that barrier and if certain pieces were ever made available would easily surpass that level, but as always Its interesting getting others peoples perspectives on artists that i follow greatly, just to see how the general opinion differs from those of the active collectors going after some of these higher end pieces.

 

So lets mix it up a bit, given the following artists/titles, what prices would you say that the best cover in that run is worth (take a guess if you dont have a clue) -

 

Starlin and his run on Captain Marvel

Romita Jnr and his run on the 80's Amazing Spidey

Romita Jnr and his run on Uncanny X-Men

Perez and his run of the 80's Avengers

Perez and his run of Crisis on Infinite Earths

Bolland and his Killing Joke work

McFarlane and his run on Amazing Spidey

Layton and his run on the 80's Iron Man

 

[Bronty]

Yes it did. Compare his 1940s work (newsboy legion, anyone?) to his 60s marvel work.

 

Now compare john's 1980 work to his 2000 work. Who got better in 20 years and who got worse? Kirby got better and John got worse.

 

 

Repeating this point since your response will completely avoid it. The quoted info is the honest truth and all that needs to be said.

[Galactus]

A general musing regarding Miller - do most of you guys believe that his art (or rather a small amount of his art) should be so much more expensive than any of his peers?

 

Obviously select Byrne pieces have been selling privately for around the $100k mark for a few years and again select Perez pieces have also achieved close to that amount, but what of other great artists whose runs in the 70's/80's garnered them great attraction - Starlin, Grell, Romita Jnr, Layton ?

 

Working on the presumption that both art and story need to be at the top of the collective heap, to have a shot at the $100k barrier, what titles/story arcs would you say that the Starlin's/Romita Jnr's etc have done that could possibly attain this level (and in the case of Captain Marvel and Starlin, have they already have surpassed this level ?)

 

 

Yes. Regardless of how aesthetically pleasing some people do or do not find Miller's work, the fact is, the man is one of the giants of the industry.

 

As one of the first generation of writer-artists, Miller's phenomenal storytelling ability is what sets him apart from his peers. What has been copied and imitated over the intervening years was essentially invented and expertly crafted by Frank Miller in the late 70's/80's.

 

As tth said, there are two giants of the Cronze era: Miller and Byrne. Everyone else is second tier compared to these two.

 

See thats funny because i dont see Miller as a giant in terms of works that he did in the late 70's to 80's. Sure he did Sin City, but it wasnt actually that great a seller at that point in time in relation to sales further down the line. And yes you could argue that it took time for the title to find a larger audience but IMO Miller in the 80's and prior only really made his mark on DD/DKR and Ronin, which is far less than the likes of say Perez who worked on Avengers/NTT/Crisis/FF and pretty much most major titles at some point.

[Bronty]

the wolverine mini series was huge don't forget. I would say that mini was the single biggest reason the character was probably the most popular character in comics for 20 years.

 

Perez's work was good but I think a lot of people weren't wowed by it. Some certainly are/were and he enjoys his reputation for that reason. But for whatever reason it didn't get quite the same strength of reaction, to the good or the bad, as some other artists.

[Nexus]

A general musing regarding Miller - do most of you guys believe that his art (or rather a small amount of his art) should be so much more expensive than any of his peers?

Absolutely. When you think of artists of the 1980s, there are 2 that tower over the rest: Miller and Byrne.

 

In the next tier I would put Perez (although personally I`m not a huge fan), Bolland, MacFarlane and Jim Lee, although I really think of MacFarlane and Lee as artists of the 90s, notwithstanding that some of their best work was in the late 1980s.

 

Working on the presumption that both art and story need to be at the top of the collective heap, to have a shot at the $100k barrier, what titles/story arcs would you say that the Starlin's/Romita Jnr's etc have done that could possibly attain this level (and in the case of Captain Marvel and Starlin, have they already have surpassed this level ?)

None.

 

You really think that none of these "second tier" artists works warrant the 100k barrier..... Knowing some of the private sales that have gone down of late with those specific artists, i can tell you that quite a few of them have approached that barrier and if certain pieces were ever made available would easily surpass that level, but as always Its interesting getting others peoples perspectives on artists that i follow greatly, just to see how the general opinion differs from those of the active collectors going after some of these higher end pieces.

 

So lets mix it up a bit, given the following artists/titles, what prices would you say that the best cover in that run is worth (take a guess if you dont have a clue) -

 

Starlin and his run on Captain Marvel

Romita Jnr and his run on the 80's Amazing Spidey

Romita Jnr and his run on the 80's Iron Man

Perez and his run of the 80's Avengers

Perez and his run of Crisis on Infinite Earths

Bolland and his Killing Joke work

McFarlane and his run on Amazing Spidey

Layton and his run on the 80's Iron Man

 

This should be fun...

 

I don't follow all these guys, and I don't know what their "best" covers are "worth"...but here are some numbers I've heard from private sales...

 

Starlin and his run on Captain Marvel $35K

Perez and his run of the 80's Avengers $90K

Bolland and his Killing Joke work $36K

McFarlane and his run on Amazing Spidey $80K

 

All cash, btw, no trade...ridicule the prices and the buyers all you want...it wasn't me!

 

[Nexus]

the wolverine mini series was huge don't forget. I would say that mini was the single biggest reason the character was probably the most popular character in comics for 20 years.

 

Sorry for this tangent, but I just read this regarding the WOLVERINE mini:

 

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2010/05/20/comic-book-legends-revealed-261/

 

It's been well-known that Miller's pencils on this series were very loose, and that the art is more Rubinstein than Miller. Unless I'm reading this story wrong, though, it seems like Rubinstein is saying he worked off seperate Miller layouts, a la Klaus Janson in the latter DD run:

Also, just in a general "this art looks different than Daredevil," Rubinstein noted that, while Klaus Janson eventually ended up also finishing Miller layouts on Daredevil, for much of their run Janson worked off of actual penciled artwork, hence the change in art style from Daredevil to Wolverine...

 

So are there no Miller pencils on the OA? This would be news to me...if anyone knows differently, please share!

[Bronty]

interesting. I guess I find it tough to separate miller the writer from miller the artist. even if the art is more rubenstein boy what an impact that series had, and the impact I dare say wasn't rubenstein's. Looking back on those pages again though you are sure right there's some miller there but not that much.

[Bronty]

A general musing regarding Miller - do most of you guys believe that his art (or rather a small amount of his art) should be so much more expensive than any of his peers?

Absolutely. When you think of artists of the 1980s, there are 2 that tower over the rest: Miller and Byrne.

 

In the next tier I would put Perez (although personally I`m not a huge fan), Bolland, MacFarlane and Jim Lee, although I really think of MacFarlane and Lee as artists of the 90s, notwithstanding that some of their best work was in the late 1980s.

 

Working on the presumption that both art and story need to be at the top of the collective heap, to have a shot at the $100k barrier, what titles/story arcs would you say that the Starlin's/Romita Jnr's etc have done that could possibly attain this level (and in the case of Captain Marvel and Starlin, have they already have surpassed this level ?)

None.

 

You really think that none of these "second tier" artists works warrant the 100k barrier..... Knowing some of the private sales that have gone down of late with those specific artists, i can tell you that quite a few of them have approached that barrier and if certain pieces were ever made available would easily surpass that level, but as always Its interesting getting others peoples perspectives on artists that i follow greatly, just to see how the general opinion differs from those of the active collectors going after some of these higher end pieces.

 

So lets mix it up a bit, given the following artists/titles, what prices would you say that the best cover in that run is worth (take a guess if you dont have a clue) -

 

Starlin and his run on Captain Marvel

Romita Jnr and his run on the 80's Amazing Spidey

Romita Jnr and his run on the 80's Iron Man

Perez and his run of the 80's Avengers

Perez and his run of Crisis on Infinite Earths

Bolland and his Killing Joke work

McFarlane and his run on Amazing Spidey

Layton and his run on the 80's Iron Man

 

This should be fun...

 

I don't follow all these guys, and I don't know what their "best" covers are "worth"...but here are some numbers I've heard from private sales...

 

 

Perez and his run of the 80's Avengers $90K

 

 

wow the others I was aware were in that range but I didn't know perez avengers were in that stratosphere. Wow!

[comicartcom]

Yes it did. Compare his 1940s work (newsboy legion, anyone?) to his 60s marvel work.

 

Now compare john's 1980 work to his 2000 work. Who got better in 20 years and who got worse? Kirby got better and John got worse. That's just the way it is. Sure the last 5 or 10 years of kirby aren't pretty but I find it telling that you focus on kirby's output when he was what, 70 years old? Let's look at Byrne's work, or virtually anyone's work, when they are 70. It won't be pretty either.

 

You seem to think I have it in for Byrne? Pretty funny considering I like his peak period work a lot. I am a huge fan of his FF Run.

 

I mentioned his name because RMA was discussing byrne and miller. Not sure why I am even explaining myself to you, get the byrne chip off your shoulder please. It gets real old listening to you get touchy every time his name is brought up and taking every critique as a slander

 

 

I totally agree with Bronty about Byrne.. the quality and verve of his art deteriorated after X-Men, slowly.. Art that I have sold from his post-XMen work was way cheaper than most of his other art with only the bright spot of Captain America. Burned out or just not interested.. it affected his art negatively

 

On Kirby.. I'm not sure how you can actually say his work got better in the 1960s though Bronty.. The reality is that like most artists, Kirby's work changed stylistically, but the quality of his art in the 1940s was top-notch as it was in the 1950s as well.

 

You can liken that curve to artists like Raymond, Foster, Hogarth and Caniff whose work was fantastic throughout their careers, but with each decade their art took on the style of the times. This was a common thread in the work of illustrators.

 

Raymond for instance, in the 1930s he had a deco-nouveau style whereas in the 1940s he changed it to modern style and with Rip Kirby he went to the photo-realistic style that would later be best used by Stan Drake and Leonard Starr. This is a common change in an artist's career and you can see it in Bill Sienkewiecz art today. They discover a new way to do "that" stroke, or how to achieve "that" shading etc. It's a growth of style.

 

Kirby's work for each period of his life is appreciated differently by different generations as well. I prefer his 40s-50s work to his Marvel work for instance.

 

On the other subject Bronty brought up.. why do so many people get so upset when you critique an artist's work?? Even the artists themselves like being critqued for the most part and critique is only natural for any public figure be that an artist, a politician or an actor. I think that Todd McFarlane is a hack. That doesn't mean I don't respect the opinion of others who have a differing opinion and that is what's lacking with too many people.. You should respect other's opinions just as you wish them to respect yours..

[comicartcom]

This should be fun...

 

I don't follow all these guys, and I don't know what their "best" covers are "worth"...but here are some numbers I've heard from private sales...

 

Starlin and his run on Captain Marvel $35K

Perez and his run of the 80's Avengers $90K

Bolland and his Killing Joke work $36K

McFarlane and his run on Amazing Spidey $80K

 

All cash, btw, no trade...ridicule the prices and the buyers all you want...it wasn't me!

 

Felix.. I don't want to disappoint you by not commenting. so here's my pricing structure

 

Starlin and his run on Captain Marvel $1500

Perez and his run of the 80's Avengers $2500

Bolland and his Killing Joke work $3500

McFarlane and his run on Amazing Spidey $3.00

[comicartcom]

I forgot to add these

 

(thumbs u

[Nexus]

 

Felix.. I don't want to disappoint you by not commenting. so here's my pricing structure

 

Starlin and his run on Captain Marvel $1500

Perez and his run of the 80's Avengers $2500

Bolland and his Killing Joke work $3500

McFarlane and his run on Amazing Spidey $3.00

 

Richard...the question was what they've sold for recently...not what *you* sold them for back in the day...

 

But if you currently have any of those for sale at those prices, I'll be your best friend!

 

(OK, I'll admit that $3 for McFarlane was funny.)

[Nexus]

(But this was funnier):

 

You should respect other's opinions just as you wish them to respect yours..

 

[comicartcom]

(But this was funnier):

 

You should respect other's opinions just as you wish them to respect yours..

 

 

Felix.. it's one thing to have an opinion on someone's comments.. It's another to magically conceive someone else's motives when you have never met them, and wish to extrapolate falsehoods for public dissemination about that person, which is what TTh did.. I have no problem with his disagreeing with me, just as I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with myself or anyone else. Spreading bs is an entirely different issue and to be sure, what he said was entirely false on every level, at least where I'm concerned. You alluded to the same as he once, but you did do it in a PM thread and I corrected you as well. That doesn't mean I do not respect your opinion for being your opinion. But neither you nor myself can appreciate anyone coming to a false conclusion about ourselves personally and I would think you would correct someone immediately if you were in the same situation.

 

also, I never even got as much as $2500 for Perez as I haven't had any of his work for 15 years or more. I did sell 2 McFarlane pieces in the last 5 years though and I did get more than $3.00.. so let me up that one to $10.00