I Officially Give Up

[Guest]

JC,

 

Kudos. My stance is similar to yours. It's one thing to convince a seller who isn't willing to take the time to look at a price guide before selling books to sell at a price you're both happy with (say, over guide but under the current, albeit unstable market value) and quite another to scr@w over other collectors who already have bids on an auction. I've made my share of deals on unknowing variant sellers, but always draw the line here, and never totally burned a seller. In general, this has become too unsavory and I've recently been doing one of two things:

 

• snap up BIN's -recently got a Marvel Presents 12
• if I'm interested and it's a regular auction, let the seller know what they have, that I'll be bidding, and to ignore low-ball offers
• do the same if I'm not interested and I think the person will get ripped off
• ignore the auction--it's actually surprising how many variants are slipping under the radar-nothing real valuable, but still bargains (Neatstuff keeps missing them)

 

Glad you were able to exact some sort of revenge on the person who initially got these auctions ended. I have little sympathy for sellers who should know better, but in this instance, a lline was definitely crossed.

 

I just happened across this thread. I normally stay pretty close to the bronze and silver index.

 

I just happned to notice the auctions last night and didn't realized they had been "re-listed". I have my 30 cent filters sharpened pretty tight but have never gotten around to doing much with the 35 centers except for a few of the Westerns. There is just too much stuff that pops up under the mainstream titles to go looking for hidden variants, especially anything with Spider-Man in the title..

 

I have a few thoughts I would add:

 

I have simply not tried to go around eBay when there is ever a bid. Most sellers simply won't pull an auction once bids are made. If buyers can accomplish it, however, I don't see any line being crossed other than a lot of potential buyers being pissed off. The market has its own way of dealing with this issue incidenatlly. A seller that constantly cancels auctions does not get a lot of repeat business. I've had a few auctions pulled on me when I was bidding, especially when I was evry active with ASM 2-3 years ago. I wasn't too happy. But, I simply didn't buy from most of those guys again.

 

That being said I think the general furor ought to be directed more at the simple high prices of these, not at the tactics used by some buyers of "hidden variants".

 

The high prices, however, are purely market driven. There is no manipulation going on here. If buyers want to pay 200 bucks each for 35 cent variants that is their business. If you think the market is high and they are fools for their bidding, you can laugh to yourself, or out loud when the time comes and they get their comeupence. On the other hand the market may not crash. In that case the buyer will be justified and who will say a word?

 

I have made a lot of discoveries, almost all completely off eBay on 30 cent variants and went the "KMart" route to get them. The 35 centers are certainly more scarce and my decision was to go the standard retail route on eBay, if necassary.

 

That being said, I have come across two large 35 cent collections and have paid very good money for them. I directed Daethwalker to the boards so that he could learn more about what he had. Ultimately after posting scans of every single book he had, he basically announced they would go to the highest bidder. The smallest offer I ever made him was 10K for 100 books I ultimately paid $140 for each book. The point is that EVERYBODY had a chance to bid on this auction and nobody else even made a serious offer from what I understand.

 

The second collection was not nearly as high grade, probably close to F/VF. I paid close to $80 bucks a book.

 

I was not countered on either offer, so I assume I probably paid a little too much. The fact is that in most cases, when these books are found you will have to pay pretty good money to find them. I would have like to have paid less, but knowing what I do, I didn't want to be outbid.

 

 

That being said, what do I think about whoever made this "lowball" offer? I think the seller got REALLY lucky that JC and whoever else e-mailed her to let her know what she had and what it might have been worth.

 

As far as the "morality" of it all, can someboidy tell me what law or eBay regulation was broken?

 

I think that what is going on here (and I do not direct this at Joe, whom I think is an upstanding guy) is that a lot of people figure if they can't find these things and get them cheap they don't wany anybody else to get them cheap either. They want to see evetybody fight on equal footing.

 

I've been in business for a lot of years. I've been fortunate enough never to even have to think about needing to get a new job. I do have a lot of clients however and have seen plenty of them out of work. One thing I know for sure, people looking for a job do not do so on equal footing. It is almost never what you know but who you know. Good job seekers almost always have an edge.

 

The same is true of variant hunters. You would think that the folks that buy these "off eBay" have some advantage that is not available to others. The "others" want to see every auction go to the end so that they can compete on even footing. Guys that look for hidden stuff spend hours at a time doing so. Yet those unwilling or unable would like to cry foul.

 

I know other folks that spend hours hunting through places like Nordstrom Rack for clothes that are subsequently sold on eBay for higher prices. The best ones show up when they know new items will arrive, BEFORE anybody else has a chance to see what is even available.

 

Given what I have heard here, I think the following analogy could be fairly made:

 

1) The buyer should wait at the rack for at least one day and point out to any subsequent shoppers the merchandise they are considering.

2) The buyers should collectively notify the Rack managemnet that they could sell the items for more on their own if they just went to Ebay to do so.

 

 

This, of course, is NONSENSE!

 

In case nobody has noticed, an auction is binding for bidders, but not for sellers. A seller can pull a listing at anytime for virtually any reason, so long as the final bell has not yet rung.

 

This thread presumes that a rule is being broken so far as the actual negotiating process with the seller is concerned. Again I will ask what rule is being broken, In my recent thread I posted what amounted to a deal between myself and a seller. I would say that the majority response was : "Hey the bidder hit the BIN, so what? No problem." Even I agreed that nothing illegal was done.

 

But now we have a case where a sharp shooting variant hunter is being called unethical because they happen to negotiate a seperate deal wiuth the seller. The real problem I have seen in this thread, thus far, is not the rightness or wrongness of the practice but rather the degree. In other woirds it's OK to lowball a seller by 10-20%, but boy if you get 80% off, you are slime. Silver and Bronze said" In this case a line was definitely crossed". I would like to ask: Where was the line crossed? What would have been OK? I don't know the original offer, but it makes no difference. Where will the line be drawn? Once we know, we can assign eBay thugs to enforce the crossing of this line by violators.

 

SIlver and Bronze said he got a Marvel Presents on the cheap. I don't understand him even offering an opinion on this subject if he wasn't pre-notifying the seller of that comic that they were about to get their pocket picked. Just because a listing starts with a BIN does not make it a morally jusfiable event, if you believe sellers are getting ripped off.

 

This is capitalism in it's purest form that is going on on eBay. I think a lot of folks are jealous, plain and simple, that theyare not getting their fair share of deals at less than "market".

 

My last comment, for now at least, is that,however it happened, I feel pretty "lucky" to have a crack at these books as I need a handfull of them. I say lucky because somebody apparantly had these books cheap that was better than I at finding them. I only wish I would have seen them before any bids had been placed and had a chance to make on off board offer.

 

Part of the market includes folks having the opportunity to try and bring efficiancy to the market. If somebody wants to notify the seller of every hidden variant, they see, thet they are not promoting theri books properly, I guess that is their purogitive.

 

Oh, by the way, what are the critics here going to do if/when prices drop...will they then blast buyers for not paying enough. Will you e-mail bidders that they don''t understand the market?

 

I empathise with the plight of those that feel prices are too high. I lost two PPSSM auctions recentlky where I had bids of nearly $200 each and didn't even get close to winning. I was so far off that esnipe couldn't even register my bid. But that doesn't mean I am going on my own hunt to make sure everybody pays high prices for every single comic that comes along.

 

I must say that I am surrounded by angels from heaven who put their interests behind those of the sellers on eBay. At least I know I'll never get low-ball offers on anything I have for sale.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[joe_collector]

The same is true of variant hunters. You would think that the folks that buy these "off eBay" have some advantage that is not available to others. The "others" want to see every auction go to the end so that they can compete on even footing. Guys that look for hidden stuff spend hours at a time doing so. Yet those unwilling or unable would like to cry foul.

 

What the are you talking about?

 

I found those variants LONG before the person who made the offer did, and was simply biding my time, waiting to compete with the others like a good little EBay bidder.

 

I put in the work, I found them before X, and I chose to let the auction progress fairly, so how does this match your above statement?

[BachelorOfComix]

Sorry but I'm not going to read ALL of that. Can someone summarize for me in a sentence or 2?

[joe_collector]

5. Made an opening bid of $200 for each lot. Whatever the final price ends up being, pay that. I strongly believe this: if the auction runs its course, you are under NO obligation to do anything else.

 

I agree totally, and I really wouldn't care if it went for a $1 BIN, as long as the auction went BY THE BOOK.

 

That didn't happen here, and it didn't sit well with me. Going outside the EBay system for an auction with multiple bids and 80 page views isn't the way I work, and I hope it isn't a practice that board members agree with.

[drbanner]

[joe_collector]

 

There's no need, as I've spoken with the original buyer and things are totally cool.

 

I just don't appreciate the comments that I didn't "look hard enough" or "am envious of those who find hidden variants", when I had been sitting on these auctions before the offer was even made.

 

After all, how else would I have noticed the closed listings, and posted them on here?

[Guest]

The same is true of variant hunters. You would think that the folks that buy these "off eBay" have some advantage that is not available to others. The "others" want to see every auction go to the end so that they can compete on even footing. Guys that look for hidden stuff spend hours at a time doing so. Yet those unwilling or unable would like to cry foul.

 

What the are you talking about?

 

I found those variants LONG before the person who made the offer did, and was simply biding my time, waiting to compete with the others like a good little EBay bidder.

 

I put in the work, I found them before X, and I chose to let the auction progress fairly, so how does this match your above statement?

 

My response would be as follows:

 

1) I don't know if you had already bid or not. In any case it doesn't really matter. Your e-mail to the buyer AFTER the fact tells me that maybe you weren't planning on ever telling the seller what they had. I imagine you were hoping to get a pretty good deal yourself (for which I applaud you). Only after the auction was pulled you then e-mailed the seller. If you think sellers are getting ripped off and eBay players are taking advantage of those playing by the rules, why didn't you make full disclosure to the seller immediatly?

 

2) If you hadn't bid, it might be that , because like me, you don't want other eBayers seeing what goodies you have found. A snipe is often used in that situation. When you snipe, you subjecrt yourself to problems exactly like this. BTW, I don't know if you snipe.

 

3 However painful it may be, even if you had bid, the seller has every right to cancel and pull and auction in progress.

 

 

I have occassionally been tempted to e-mail a seller of a hidden variant as to what is going on when bidders were already present. In every case it has been because I was more afraid of somebody else might come along and talk the seller into ending the auction early.

 

I'm not making a personal attack, let me be clear. I just think variant hunters have learned to be a little tougher in negotiating buys with sellers. Had you e-mailed with a "fair" price when you first saw the auction, you might now be the owner of those fine books.

[joe_collector]

If you want to justify making unethical "off-EBay" deals for auctions with multiple bids in place, then do your best, but please don't post hypothetical gibberish and drag me through the mud with you.

 

I saw the auction, I saw that it had active bids, I respected those bids and laid in a snipe, and that's about it. Pretty simple really, and if someone chooses to go outside those ethical boundaries, then.....

 

P.S. I really don't understand why this thread is continuing. The lady is pleased, the original buyer knows the deal, and it looks like a happy ending all around.

[joe_collector]

Sorry but I'm not going to read ALL of that. Can someone summarize for me in a sentence or 2?

 

1) Comic newbie listed a pile of comics for a friend.

 

2) JC search EBay, finds some listings and discovers tons of variants.

 

3) JC knows he's not alone as these listings already have multiple bids and 60-80 page views.

 

4) JC wonders "should I send her an offer?", but decides NO WAY as he confirms these are all auctions with multiple, active bids.

 

5) JC wakes up one morning to find all variant lots closed - suspects foul play.

 

6) JC emails seller to see why these were delisted and posts thread on CGC Forums.

 

7) Seller emails JC to thank him for letting her know about the comics, and proceeds to relist them.

 

Everything else is hyperbole.

[Guest]

If you want to justify making unethical "off-EBay" deals for auctions with multiple bids in place, then do your best, but please don't post hypothetical gibberish and drag me through the mud with you.

 

I saw the auction, I saw that it had active bids, I respected those bids and laid in a snipe, and that's about it. Pretty simple really, and if someone chooses to go outside those ethical boundaries, then.....

 

P.S. I really don't understand why this thread is continuing. The lady is pleased, the original buyer knows the deal, and it looks like a happy ending all around.

 

Joe-

 

I am not advocating anything unethical or illegal. I don't think I have ever made an outside offer on an item with existing bids. My main points were two:

 

1) The ethics problem belongs to the seller, not the buyer. The buyer cannot force a delisting, only the seller can. I'm just not sure you can hold a sellers feet to the fire for cancelling an auction.

 

2) The question of what constitues crossing the line. I'll repeat my question of above: If making sure a seller is fully informed is the cirrect ethical decision, why didn't ANYBODY e-mail this "poor woman" ahead of time? What is the line: EXACTLY?

 

If she had honored her off eBay agreement what would the ethics of the situiation be now.

 

Everybody including me is happy we have these to bid on now, but that doesn't make the issue you brought up any less compelling. A lot of questions were raised here and I, for one would like to see the answers from the people raising the issues.

 

We have two big threads posted in one week, including one by me, on the general topic of off eBay offers for variants. I don't think this is getting better before it gets worse. just my 2 cents (ok maybe a little more than 2 cents)

 

[metropoliscomics]

does someone need me and Ian to give them a hug?

[WernerVonDoom]

Well, as the poll suggests, no one here (including me) would give up extra cash for the newbie seller. So as far as that goes, we are all "ethically" on the same page.

 

So that leaves the ethics of someone contacting the seller prior to the auction closing to make a deal. While it might be against eBay procedure, and unfriendly/unsporting, I do not think it is unethical. They make an offer, the seller can reject or accept it. It's the American way.

 

Similarly, notifying a seller that they have 35 cent variants and to watch out for lowballers in order to ensure you have a chance to bid is also the American Way.

 

I just think we should take a deep breath and consider this before we crucify whoever contacted the seller as someone who would rip off a little old lady.

[joe_collector]

Please re-read Donut's statement, as it covers my thoughts off pretty well.

 

It's not about money, disclosure or anything like that, but a desire to see EBay transactions proceed by the book. If it's a $1 BIN, nab it. If the auction just listed 10 seconds ago and it's still got no bids, then make an offer.

 

On the other hand, if there are active bids, then please respect them, as the vast majority of EBay'ers assume these listings will progress by the book, and wouldn't even contemplate making an off-EBay offer.

 

If someone crosses this line, then expect the bidders, watchers and gawkers to exercise their right to notify the seller immediately.

 

Otherwise, have fun and play safe.

[joe_collector]

So that leaves the ethics of someone contacting the seller prior to the auction closing to make a deal. While it might be against eBay procedure, and unfriendly/unsporting, I do not think it is unethical.

 

Then I guess we disagree on that point.

 

I would never, ever contact a seller to sell outside EBay if the auction was live, multiple bids were in place, and the page views were through the ceiling.

 

If it's got no bids and was just listed, that's a totally different situation.

[drbanner]

...someone contacting the seller prior to the auction closing to make a deal. While it might be against eBay procedure, and unfriendly/unsporting, I do not think it is unethical.

 

While I don't collect 'em myself, I would be totally surprised if variant collectors don't do this all the time...peruse the listings, look for the variants based on scans only (no mention of the price variant in the description or title), send the seller an offer on what may be be, in the early days, a book that the seller thinks is headed towards a low closing bid (as evidenced by the catfight in the bronze thread).

 

I may have to add "Kid Colt 207" to my ebay search list along with the recently added "Buzzy 70"!

 

 

 

[underthebigw]

That being said, I have come across two large 35 cent collections and have paid very good money for them. I directed Daethwalker to the boards so that he could learn more about what he had. Ultimately after posting scans of every single book he had, he basically announced they would go to the highest bidder. The smallest offer I ever made him was 10K for 100 books I ultimately paid $140 for each book. The point is that EVERYBODY had a chance to bid on this auction and nobody else even made a serious offer from what I understand.

 

 

 

Whaaattt!!!! Glenn, keep in mind that I won't begrudge anyone the right to make a deal. It's just that I happen to know, and have known since before your deal was even finalized, that you initially offered well below $100 a book. In fact, I think it was a whopping $40 each. And I have the email to prove it. Like I said, nothing wrong with such an offer, just don't pretend you're a hero. I probably would have made a similar initial offer sight unseen.

 

[Guest]

That being said, I have come across two large 35 cent collections and have paid very good money for them. I directed Daethwalker to the boards so that he could learn more about what he had. Ultimately after posting scans of every single book he had, he basically announced they would go to the highest bidder. The smallest offer I ever made him was 10K for 100 books I ultimately paid $140 for each book. The point is that EVERYBODY had a chance to bid on this auction and nobody else even made a serious offer from what I understand.

 

 

 

Whaaattt!!!! Glenn, keep in mind that I won't begrudge anyone the right to make a deal. It's just that I happen to know, and have known since before your deal was even finalized, that you initially offered well below $100 a book. In fact, I think it was a whopping $40 each. And I have the email to prove it. Like I said, nothing wrong with such an offer, just don't pretend you're a hero. I probably would have made a similar initial offer sight unseen.

 

I don't exactly think I said I NEVER EVER made a lower offer. AFTER he came to the boards he posted scans of the books. At that point my initial offer was 10K . My original offer to him before he ever came to the boards was for AT LEAST $40 a book sight unseen. At least is not exactly a fixed number. It went from there that if grades were higher, I'd pay more...

 

Since 99.9999% of folks on this board have not been privvy to the private e-mails between myself and Daeth, I don't think introducing pre-CGC boards information is particularly pertinent.I'm sure Daeth could collaberate that information.

 

My introduction of Daeth to the boards was not entirely unselfish either. He was not particularly hot on selling his books. I figured if he could see that what I would ultimately offer was fair, that he would do a deal with me.

 

My point was that NOBODY (at least not recently) has coughed up more dough in one sitting than me for quality 35 cent variant books than me. I have also found more hidden variants and variants on the "cheap" than most folks. I think that gives me the right to enter the fray on the "ethics" of how books are bought on the cheap or in straight forward negotiations.

 

Now you know the rest of the story....

 

 

[Rickdogg]

I was one of probably many that emailed the seller asking to sell to me off of ebay. Of course I found these by accident while searching for my beloved MTU's and saw this when it was freshly listed with not one single bid. I did not attempt to lowball the seller I just made the inquiry of whether or not the seller would sell me all the comic lots outside of ebay and to name a price. She replied stating that she never ends auctions, so no big deal. I can definitely respect that since I apply the same rules if an item of mine already has bids in place. There goes my chance of completing my 35 cent variant MTU run for cheap

 

THIEVES!!! GYPSIES!!!!... and what were the other terms? Ahhh, forget it

[WernerVonDoom]

So that leaves the ethics of someone contacting the seller prior to the auction closing to make a deal. While it might be against eBay procedure, and unfriendly/unsporting, I do not think it is unethical.

 

Then I guess we disagree on that point.

 

I would never, ever contact a seller to sell outside EBay if the auction was live, multiple bids were in place, and the page views were through the ceiling.

 

If it's got no bids and was just listed, that's a totally different situation.

 

Here is something to think about: let's say you did contact the seller when there were no bids placed, and in the time between your offer and the seller approving it (let's say 5 hours), 4 people had bid on the auction. The seller then cancels the other bids, [!@#%^&^] everyone off and make you look like a bad guy. Better watch out for that.

[ghoulaid]

 

As far as the "morality" of it all, can someboidy tell me what law or eBay regulation was broken?

 

 

 

Aye Caramba! That was like looking for a needle in a haystack but I found this direct from ebays pages (I knew it had to be there somewhere!):

 

"eBay prohibits email offers to buy> or sell listed items outside of the eBay site. Offers of this nature circumvent eBay's fee structure and are a potential fraud risk for both buyers and sellers. Some examples of off-site offers include:

 

* Using information obtained through eBay to offer to buy or sell a listed item off-site.

* Canceling a listing to sell to a buyer who became aware of the item through eBay.

* Ending a listing early to sell the item at a higher price to the winning bidder."

 

So there you have it. It's against ebays rules to email a seller and try to get them to sell to you OFF ebay because ebay considers it fee avoidance.