How do you determine FMV based on Sigs alone?

[3319comics]

Well, Mike, you are right and you are wrong. But these statements really go to the heart of a lot of the problems with the SS "community" and how everything is structured... And I guess it boils down to one simple opinion I cannot shake...

 

Almost every single Signature Series facilitator out there is a freakin' fool. I include myself 100% in this opinion.

 

Now that I have your attention, let me explain... The business of taking in a customer's book, preparing it for a convention, carrying it to a convention, getting it autographed by a creator, filling out the paperwork, and submitting the book to CGC is woefully underpriced and heavily abused.

 

[shortened for ease of quoting]

 

Good post, Joel - and I'm in complete agreement with you about the underpricing.

 

Just to clarify my position, though ...

 

If I shoot Sean a PM because I know he's attending a show (and I'm not) and ask him to take a couple of my books to get signed, that's a favor. Just like you've done me numerous favors in the past (for which I'm very grateful).

 

But if Facilitator X or Company X creates a public thread saying they are taking submissions for a specific show, and I send them my books, that's business.

 

It doesn't matter whether it's bad business, whether they should be charging more than they do, whether they suddenly have more expenses than they thought they would have; they've set their own prices, they've published these prices, and as a customer I expect them (within reason) to provide me with the service that I've paid for. If those prices are unsustainable - based on the $10-20 above actual cost pr. book, the opportunity for them get their own books SS'ed at the same time, the fact that they were going to be at the show no matter what - then it's up to the faciliator or company to raise their prices, restrict the number of books they'll take for a specific show, or restrict which creators they'll take books for.

 

Don't get me wrong, though - this doesn't mean that I'm above tipping for a job well done - or being appreciative when a particularly hard signature is attained - or giving kudos when my books come back from CGC and they've managed to retain their grades. What it does mean, though, is that I don't want to feel like you're doing me a favor & I should just shut up and be grateful that anyone's even bothering to take my books. And, yes, it also means that if you don't get my books signed because you forgot, left the books at the hotel, or you just weren't paying attention, well, I'm not going to be particularly happy about it.

 

 

(thumbs u For what its worth I agree with MS...If its a favor them pm conversation, if you post it on a billboard for the whole world to see dont expect people not to contact you or have expectations of services rendered.

[NYComics]

Well, Mike, you are right and you are wrong. But these statements really go to the heart of a lot of the problems with the SS "community" and how everything is structured... And I guess it boils down to one simple opinion I cannot shake...

 

Almost every single Signature Series facilitator out there is a freakin' fool. I include myself 100% in this opinion.

 

Now that I have your attention, let me explain... The business of taking in a customer's book, preparing it for a convention, carrying it to a convention, getting it autographed by a creator, filling out the paperwork, and submitting the book to CGC is woefully underpriced and heavily abused.

 

[shortened for ease of quoting]

 

Good post, Joel - and I'm in complete agreement with you about the underpricing.

 

Just to clarify my position, though ...

 

If I shoot Sean a PM because I know he's attending a show (and I'm not) and ask him to take a couple of my books to get signed, that's a favor. Just like you've done me numerous favors in the past (for which I'm very grateful).

 

But if Facilitator X or Company X creates a public thread saying they are taking submissions for a specific show, and I send them my books, that's business.

 

It doesn't matter whether it's bad business, whether they should be charging more than they do, whether they suddenly have more expenses than they thought they would have; they've set their own prices, they've published these prices, and as a customer I expect them (within reason) to provide me with the service that I've paid for. If those prices are unsustainable - based on the $10-20 above actual cost pr. book, the opportunity for them get their own books SS'ed at the same time, the fact that they were going to be at the show no matter what - then it's up to the faciliator or company to raise their prices, restrict the number of books they'll take for a specific show, or restrict which creators they'll take books for.

 

Don't get me wrong, though - this doesn't mean that I'm above tipping for a job well done - or being appreciative when a particularly hard signature is attained - or giving kudos when my books come back from CGC and they've managed to retain their grades. What it does mean, though, is that I don't want to feel like you're doing me a favor & I should just shut up and be grateful that anyone's even bothering to take my books. And, yes, it also means that if you don't get my books signed because you forgot, left the books at the hotel, or you just weren't paying attention, well, I'm not going to be particularly happy about it.

 

 

(thumbs u For what its worth I agree with MS...If its a favor them pm conversation, if you post it on a billboard for the whole world to see dont expect people not to contact you or have expectations of services rendered.

 

 

[MedicAR]

At what point does the Witness/Facilitator stop doing business and begin doing a favor? As a paramedic, I'm happy to help people with medical questions and advice, but it doesn't come up often. Certainly not as often as the signature/sketch requests here do.

 

Would you expect your dentist to do a cleaning for free or at cost because you've utilized his services in the past? Would expect that dentist to come in on the weekend to take care of you because you forgot your appointment on Thursday? I think we can all honestly answer "no" to both questions. But we do expect Witnesses/Facilitators to do the equivalent for us by getting books done for us at cost or taking in submissions after the cutoff date.

 

We're making demands on their time and expecting them do the same thing that they do for at least a portion of their income.

 

I know I've complained about prices from time to time and I'm sure I will again, probably sooner than I like to believe, but if you weren't able to find somebody to take your subs, what choice would you have on that price?

[Pirate]

Well, Mike, you are right and you are wrong. But these statements really go to the heart of a lot of the problems with the SS "community" and how everything is structured... And I guess it boils down to one simple opinion I cannot shake...

 

Almost every single Signature Series facilitator out there is a freakin' fool. I include myself 100% in this opinion.

 

Now that I have your attention, let me explain... The business of taking in a customer's book, preparing it for a convention, carrying it to a convention, getting it autographed by a creator, filling out the paperwork, and submitting the book to CGC is woefully underpriced and heavily abused.

 

[shortened for ease of quoting]

 

Good post, Joel - and I'm in complete agreement with you about the underpricing.

 

Just to clarify my position, though ...

 

If I shoot Sean a PM because I know he's attending a show (and I'm not) and ask him to take a couple of my books to get signed, that's a favor. Just like you've done me numerous favors in the past (for which I'm very grateful).

 

But if Facilitator X or Company X creates a public thread saying they are taking submissions for a specific show, and I send them my books, that's business.

 

It doesn't matter whether it's bad business, whether they should be charging more than they do, whether they suddenly have more expenses than they thought they would have; they've set their own prices, they've published these prices, and as a customer I expect them (within reason) to provide me with the service that I've paid for. If those prices are unsustainable - based on the $10-20 above actual cost pr. book, the opportunity for them get their own books SS'ed at the same time, the fact that they were going to be at the show no matter what - then it's up to the faciliator or company to raise their prices, restrict the number of books they'll take for a specific show, or restrict which creators they'll take books for.

 

Don't get me wrong, though - this doesn't mean that I'm above tipping for a job well done - or being appreciative when a particularly hard signature is attained - or giving kudos when my books come back from CGC and they've managed to retain their grades. What it does mean, though, is that I don't want to feel like you're doing me a favor & I should just shut up and be grateful that anyone's even bothering to take my books. And, yes, it also means that if you don't get my books signed because you forgot, left the books at the hotel, or you just weren't paying attention, well, I'm not going to be particularly happy about it.

 

Just to be clear: this is in no way directed at Rich or Joel, I'm referring to a couple of experiences I've had with other people.

 

Nobody's trivializing the amount of work it takes to get signatures - as anyone who's gone to a show & stood in line for hours can attest to, it's back-breaking, mindless work. But, then again, nobody's forcing anyone to announce that they're facilitating a specific show and they're now accepting submissions from the general public. You can't have it both ways - either it's a favor and you make sure that people know you're doing them a favor, or it's a business and you yourself ensure that it makes financial sense for you to take these books. I realize this was a lot easier prior to the changes in the CGC SS program (where you could witness your own books), but the point still stands.

 

Anyway ... I'd like to publicly apologize to Rich for the joke I made at his expense earlier and for my reply to his posts - they were both in poor taste, and I should have known better. RH is an all-round top-notch guy in my book, and I know he's worked his azz off helping people with their SS books (myself included). My apologies, Rich.

 

All i'm going to say is that if you're not happy with the service, then don't use it anymore, mistakes happen. You wonder why people never want to take books anymore. I'm no longer taking books of any kind because i'm tired of the horsecrapp and people who think they are entitled.

[MedicAR]

All i'm going to say is that if you're not happy with the service, then don't use it anymore, mistakes happen. You wonder why people never want to take books anymore. I'm no longer taking books of any kind because i'm tired of the horsecrapp and people who think they are entitled.

 

Oh good...I thought you were just turning mine down.

[BrianR]

This is an interesting topic. I am curious as far a SS value, factors include who is signing it, placement, rarity, and popularity of the book. Does cross over appeal have a factor? Are actors' sigs more valuable than comic artists and creators?

[MedicAR]

This is an interesting topic. I am curious as far a SS value, factors include who is signing it, placement, rarity, and popularity of the book. Does cross over appeal have a factor? Are actors' sigs more valuable than comic artists and creators?

 

I would say that generally actors are more valuable than comics talent because they are harder to get and have a wider appeal.

 

Personally, I'm excited by a Neal Adams CGC SS but probably 98% of the population would just say, "Who?" Now, get one signed by Leonard Nimoy and you suddenly have a much larger audience and almost instant name recognition.

[lscomics]

MedicAR brings up a good point. Are facilitators limited as to how much they can charge for their services? I know with the books I've subbed through a few different facilitators that the prices have varied a bit. I know you guys charge a "per book" fee but it would seem to me you should be able to adjust that fee now that it's more difficult to do what you do since the change in the SS program structure, particularly when obtaining sketches on blanks. There are times that I read stuff here on the boards that make me think some of the people out there who use your services don't take into account the effort that's involved and should stop for a few minutes and reflect on it.

 

I, for one, appreciate everything you've all done for me. Thank you so much for helping me obtain the sigs you have. (thumbs u

[Pirate]

They are not limited as you can see by what some charge, but you have to understand the massive costs involved with some shows. The good thing now is that anyone can now go to a show and drop off their books to cgc for SS.

 

Who needs facilitators, just travel to each show yourselves and pay CGC $27 plus any extra sigs!

[zuckuss2003]

Who needs facilitators, just travel to each show yourselves and pay CGC $27 plus any extra sigs!

Sounds great, but CGC is not really at each show.

[NYComics]

At what point does the Witness/Facilitator stop doing business and begin doing a favor? As a paramedic, I'm happy to help people with medical questions and advice, but it doesn't come up often. Certainly not as often as the signature/sketch requests here do.

 

Would you expect your dentist to do a cleaning for free or at cost because you've utilized his services in the past? Would expect that dentist to come in on the weekend to take care of you because you forgot your appointment on Thursday? I think we can all honestly answer "no" to both questions. But we do expect Witnesses/Facilitators to do the equivalent for us by getting books done for us at cost or taking in submissions after the cutoff date.

 

We're making demands on their time and expecting them do the same thing that they do for at least a portion of their income.

 

I know I've complained about prices from time to time and I'm sure I will again, probably sooner than I like to believe, but if you weren't able to find somebody to take your subs, what choice would you have on that price?

 

I wanted to share my thoughts on this matter.....I have found this thread quite interesting.

 

-I have been in the SS game for about 5 years. Age 21-26 so far. My partner is my best friend and next door neighbor Chris, we collect SS books together and neither of us even own a blue label cgc book. He does not post on these boards anymore.

 

-We used to be SS witnesses. As the SS program grew so did we. We believed in having fun and most importantly treating the creators with respect. I am happy to say that I have never had a conflict with a creator over signing books. And I am quite proud of that considering the amount of books that I have done. The key part of this statement is respect.

 

-Conflicts with creators happened, the SS program changed. (In my opinion in a difficult way.)

 

-So basically when this all changed I said to myself how can I throw a massive SS event to show everyone that the SS program is still going strong? I created The Masters signing. And I am still waiting to get Sal Buscema books back and answer PMS every single day regarding this subject. I am such good friends with Mike Lilly that I wanted to help him and the people of this board with a sketch op. Mike has the books, he is just really busy/has started working on them, yet I still get PMS every day, even people asking for refunds. Is it fun for me to get these pms and feel bad.....No. Did I become rich off of these signings and run a greedy business?.....I really dont think so. I did them to build books in my own collection, make $$ for creators I have good relationships with, and offer opportunities for the board and promote the Signature program. To be honest in my opinion some people are WAY to impatient and ask for WAY to much.

 

-My boy Par2ch offers a service with Mike Zeck where you can buy a head sketch remark on a book. Awesome he works that out with the creator, pays him his respect. Me I do not ask my creators to do remarks during the signing that often because I want things to go smoothly and not abuse the relationship I have with them. (And no I am not insinuating that Dan does not have respect or abuses his realtionship with Mike Zeck)

 

-I do not offer remarks in my signings with Romita or Joe Simon. Yet EVERYONE and their mother asks me for them. In some cases it seems like they expect them.....FYI I am not going to impose on them.

 

-hmmm I love being acused of mixing up a book and then having photo evidence to PROVE THAT I AM RIGHT. Sorry you got that low grade you did not expect. FYI I do not care that it was pre-screened by someone other than CGC at a higher grade. (Thats why you prep your books or pay me to do so. I have never mixed one up either)

 

- Anyways with the constant unreasonable complaints/requests, lack of control over certain aspects of the sig business, tougher rules with CGC, and trickier creator demands......well I dont know what to tell you guys, this aint as fun as it used to be. If you all only knew how hard I tried to line up a Stan Lee signing w/ NYCC this year...... I am beginning to fade to the mindset that it is not worth the $5 I charge a signature. Do you know how annoying it is for people to ask me what the deadline is for Baltimore or Joe Simon---------Read my freakin flyer people!

 

-That being said I will end on a positive note. I like creating SS Books for me and for other people. I love the friends I have made on here. I love the clients who treat me with respect, who take that extra time and care to prep there books and make it clear what they want. I love the responsibility that CGC lets me have (That I have earned). It is great going to a show with a group of my friends on the east coast. It is great to see creators that I have seen now year after year and having a good repor with them. It is great to see awesome clients/friends post awesome books in my Master thread. Thats what makes me like this place and still make SS a part of my life. I hope the good keeps on outweighing the bad.

 

 

Sean

[lscomics]

I have not, as of yet, used your services for SS books but I would like to say this. I agree with you 100% that there seem to be quite a few people out there that feel they're owed special favors (i.e. remarks and such) and are far too impatient for the return of their books. It seems that they forget that once the books are submitted to CGC there is no guaranteed return date. When the books are returned is decided entirely by how busy CGC is at that time. I'm sure at some point in the future I will submit some books to you for sigs and hope that you don't let the impatient and unappreciative few out there spoil what is clearly an enjoyable undertaking for you.

[somewhereintexas]

There's still time to get Sean some books for Baltimore, which has a really great guest list.

[Pirate]

Who needs facilitators, just travel to each show yourselves and pay CGC $27 plus any extra sigs!

Sounds great, but CGC is not really at each show.

 

get yourself a caw and solicit for 200 books. Don't be lazy.

[Pirate]

At what point does the Witness/Facilitator stop doing business and begin doing a favor? As a paramedic, I'm happy to help people with medical questions and advice, but it doesn't come up often. Certainly not as often as the signature/sketch requests here do.

 

Would you expect your dentist to do a cleaning for free or at cost because you've utilized his services in the past? Would expect that dentist to come in on the weekend to take care of you because you forgot your appointment on Thursday? I think we can all honestly answer "no" to both questions. But we do expect Witnesses/Facilitators to do the equivalent for us by getting books done for us at cost or taking in submissions after the cutoff date.

 

We're making demands on their time and expecting them do the same thing that they do for at least a portion of their income.

 

I know I've complained about prices from time to time and I'm sure I will again, probably sooner than I like to believe, but if you weren't able to find somebody to take your subs, what choice would you have on that price?

 

I wanted to share my thoughts on this matter.....I have found this thread quite interesting.

 

-I have been in the SS game for about 5 years. Age 21-26 so far. My partner is my best friend and next door neighbor Chris, we collect SS books together and neither of us even own a blue label cgc book. He does not post on these boards anymore.

 

-We used to be SS witnesses. As the SS program grew so did we. We believed in having fun and most importantly treating the creators with respect. I am happy to say that I have never had a conflict with a creator over signing books. And I am quite proud of that considering the amount of books that I have done. The key part of this statement is respect.

 

-Conflicts with creators happened, the SS program changed. (In my opinion in a difficult way.)

 

-So basically when this all changed I said to myself how can I throw a massive SS event to show everyone that the SS program is still going strong? I created The Masters signing. And I am still waiting to get Sal Buscema books back and answer PMS every single day regarding this subject. I am such good friends with Mike Lilly that I wanted to help him and the people of this board with a sketch op. Mike has the books, he is just really busy/has started working on them, yet I still get PMS every day, even people asking for refunds. Is it fun for me to get these pms and feel bad.....No. Did I become rich off of these signings and run a greedy business?.....I really dont think so. I did them to build books in my own collection, make $$ for creators I have good relationships with, and offer opportunities for the board and promote the Signature program. To be honest in my opinion some people are WAY to impatient and ask for WAY to much.

 

-My boy Par2ch offers a service with Mike Zeck where you can buy a head sketch remark on a book. Awesome he works that out with the creator, pays him his respect. Me I do not ask my creators to do remarks during the signing that often because I want things to go smoothly and not abuse the relationship I have with them. (And no I am not insinuating that Dan does not have respect or abuses his realtionship with Mike Zeck)

 

-I do not offer remarks in my signings with Romita or Joe Simon. Yet EVERYONE and their mother asks me for them. In some cases it seems like they expect them.....FYI I am not going to impose on them.

 

-hmmm I love being acused of mixing up a book and then having photo evidence to PROVE THAT I AM RIGHT. Sorry you got that low grade you did not expect. FYI I do not care that it was pre-screened by someone other than CGC at a higher grade. (Thats why you prep your books or pay me to do so. I have never mixed one up either)

 

- Anyways with the constant unreasonable complaints/requests, lack of control over certain aspects of the sig business, tougher rules with CGC, and trickier creator demands......well I dont know what to tell you guys, this aint as fun as it used to be. If you all only knew how hard I tried to line up a Stan Lee signing w/ NYCC this year...... I am beginning to fade to the mindset that it is not worth the $5 I charge a signature. Do you know how annoying it is for people to ask me what the deadline is for Baltimore or Joe Simon---------Read my freakin flyer people!

 

-That being said I will end on a positive note. I like creating SS Books for me and for other people. I love the friends I have made on here. I love the clients who treat me with respect, who take that extra time and care to prep there books and make it clear what they want. I love the responsibility that CGC lets me have (That I have earned). It is great going to a show with a group of my friends on the east coast. It is great to see creators that I have seen now year after year and having a good repor with them. It is great to see awesome clients/friends post awesome books in my Master thread. Thats what makes me like this place and still make SS a part of my life. I hope the good keeps on outweighing the bad.

 

word to big bird.

 

 

Sean

[MedicAR]

....And I am still waiting to get Sal Buscema books back and answer PMS every single day regarding this subject. I am such good friends with Mike Lilly that I wanted to help him and the people of this board with a sketch op. Mike has the books, he is just really busy/has started working on them, yet I still get PMS every day, even people asking for refunds. Is it fun for me to get these pms and feel bad.....No. Did I become rich off of these signings and run a greedy business?.....I really dont think so.....To be honest in my opinion some people are WAY to impatient and ask for WAY to much.

 

I certainly can't speak for everyone, but when I ask about books be it with sketches or signatures, or status at CGC, I'm very rarely angry. Generally, I ask to make sure that I have not been forgotten, just out of curiosity, or the idea just popped into my head. "Hey! I haven't heard from Joe Schmoe on that signing last week, I wonder how it went?"

 

I worked in the air freight business for a long time and a big part of our customer service was keeping our clients in the loop. If a shipment was late, damaged, lost, or destroyed, we called the client immediately upon learning of it. On the flip side, when a shipment was delivered early we let the know right away as well. If it was going around the world, even if it was stuck in customs for a month, we updated the client at least once every day or two.

 

While the above example would be extreme for the CGC SS business, it might be a model to follow. Just drop a PM or a post once a week or so to say you've checked in with the creator and things are as going as planned or there are delays due to whatever. It may be a little more time consuming up front, but the rewards on the back end make up for it. You don't get irate PMs, emails, or calls. You don't get pestered for updates.

 

The same goes for shows, granted it may take a few days to make 100% certain of what got done and what didn't, but a quick confirmation would go a long ways. Even if it's just a cut and pasted reply to PMs or a group PM to all that participated in the signing.

 

The above are the sleep-deprived ramblings and are in no way "aimed" at anyone. I'm just looking at Sean's post and being reminded of how things were at my employer before we implemented the constant updates and after. It saved a lot of hard feelings, headaches, and such.

[Joel Elad]

But if Facilitator X or Company X creates a public thread saying they are taking submissions for a specific show, and I send them my books, that's business.

 

You are right, Mike. Someone puts out an offer, it is very reasonable to expect you will get the terms of that offer. While I cannot (and would not) speak on behalf of every facilitator, I assume that in some cases, the facilitator may have assumed some implied "favor" or whatnot when they post a new offer, when, in fact, it should be a simple business deal. I'm not sure if it's because we're all so eager to please or this whole business started as an informal way to help collectors improve their collections, but it's kinda the point of all these discussions. This system is evolving, and we need to evolve how it's approached, how it's structured, and so on. My post was meant not just for customers but facilitators as well.

 

Doug, your recent posts on service are valid, but remember that most of us are doing this as a side project beyond our day-to-day work, even though it seems some of us are full-time comics folks. (Understand, I say this not as an excuse, but an explanation. While we are offering business services, we are not all fully-formed businesses... yet.) For facilitators or companies who want to make this their real business, I agree that they should put policies into place in terms of communication, follow-up, etc. Just understand that building processes and policies will probably result in a higher cost to you. And I think you get that...

 

[Rich_Henn]

In most cases, speaking for myself, as in the cases of Seattle, people contacted ME asking if I would handle their books. I did not solicit.

In my book, that is me doing you a favor. Even if you tossed me a few $

[MedicAR]

Doug, your recent posts on service are valid, but remember that most of us are doing this as a side project beyond our day-to-day work, even though it seems some of us are full-time comics folks. (Understand, I say this not as an excuse, but an explanation. While we are offering business services, we are not all fully-formed businesses... yet.) For facilitators or companies who want to make this their real business, I agree that they should put policies into place in terms of communication, follow-up, etc. Just understand that building processes and policies will probably result in a higher cost to you. And I think you get that...

 

Oh, I understand that completely! Like I've said before, I wish I could get in on this as a side business. I also want to make it clear that this is not what I actually expect, but reading Sean's post fired a neuron somewhere in my brain and made me think back to the old days where our solution was to head off problems and complaints as early as possible by keeping in touch. Initially, we also had to make phone calls to the clients, no emails or web sites for them to go to. I don't think any of this should be a policy of any kind, I merely put it out as a suggestion.

 

Also, we were far from the cheapest company. The belief was that you get what you pay for and that's been my life-long philosophy. They're a multi-million dollar compay that ran a single advertisement when they started....about 30 years ago now. All of the business has really been done by word of mouth.