Look at this Heritage 9.4!!! Damaging the Hobby!!!

[Goliath-migration]

I like CGC's grading on my end, but I can't believe this mega-key 9.4 is not a 7.0. I counted at least a dozen spine creases, corner damage, and a small rip at the top center of the book. In comparison, I checked some of my FN/VF to VF+ books and they look nicer under a microscope. Realizing this is a large scan, no 9.4 I own looks anything like this. How can this happen? Do any of you forum regulars run into this?

 

http://www.heritagecomics.com/common/auctions/viewlot.asp?s=805&l=5789&type=temcomics12052002a

 

And Heritage is saying $15K! Who gets grades like this? Certainly not anyone I know. I was going to move some funds around to buy on this book, but no way! I'd be extremely ticked off at CGC and take appropriate action if I accidently fell for this one!

[notch_top]

Book is far above a 7.0.

 

Defects that I not , could grade the book down to a 9.2 and the 9.4 appears to be a little generous.

 

But to call it a F/VF is nonsense.

 

 

[Rickdogg]

I would have graded it a VF- to VF+ w/o using the era bias that CGC has.

 

Yet another example of overgrading based on era.

[notch_top]

vf-/vf+

 

Based on what?

 

Some light spine stresses and a possible miniscule "tear" on the top edge?

 

A book graded by CGC 7.5-8.5 will have generally have one MAJOR defect.

 

I simply do not see that in this copy..It looks like a very nice avengers 1.

 

What do you see that I am missing?

 

I will BUY all your Pre 66 silver that is in this grade at VF- prices.

 

M

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

I am by nature a perfectionist, and a very strict technical grader, according to the OverStreet Grading Criteria. One of the problems with looking at a scan that large, is that any minor flaw, looks much larger flaw due to the magnification of the scan. However I do see what appears to be spine stress marks that break color, and I couldn't give the book a higher grade than a VF+ 8.5 if that is the case. The corners do appear to fit in the NM range though (very slight blunting is permitted). This size of the scan makes it difficult to judge what is noticeable when looking at the real thing though.

[comicinvestor-migration]

If I sent in a Byrne X-Men (seen a ton of CGC examples (g)) like that, it would come back no better than a VF 8.0, and a Modern would be in the 7's for sure.

 

It's what I've been saying for-like ever, that's the best condition you can expect some Silver keys in, so that's where CGC places the "9.4 Early Silver" bar. It's never to do with actual condition, but relative to what other HG comics from that era look like.

[Rickdogg]

Matt, I know what you mean. Using CGC "grading" i'd grade it a 9.0. I'm just saying using my own personal standards HEHEH

[whatthe-migration]

that book is a re-grade. 9.4 was not the original grade.

[Rickdogg]

Flaws that I saw with a quick glance, since I am eating

 

-Spine stress that breaks color (atleast 4 or 5) other spine stress is really small and is just emphasized by the scan.

-Spine edge wear

-Top left corner wear (shows more from the back)

-Bottom edge wear

-Top Right Corner (Rounded)

-Discoloration of the edges of the covers that would knock down a grade on a modern or a strictly graded Hulk #180

 

That is not NM folks.

 

[comicinvestor-migration]

That is not NM folks.

 

That's what an "Early Marvel Silver NM" has been and will always be, since you'd be hard pressed to find many in better shape. The top books in any era will always be given the NM grade, but that is far different than the top books of 2002 and what a USM #1 9.4 looks like.

 

It's not inherently fair, but over time, I've learned to live with the logistics. What I do find hilarious are the "living in a dreamworld" people on here who state that this Avengers #1 CGC 9.4 is under the same scrutiny and grading criteria as a 2002 USM CGC 9.4.

 

That really makes me laugh.

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

I didn't look at the back scan, I don't see a tiny corner crease on the bottom right front though. It looks to me like where the outside of Loki's hand ends, and the color scheme of the art turns to grey like other nearby areas of the cover do the same.

[Rickdogg]

That's my point. It is NM in silver standards but those same standards are not applied across the board. People need to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

Denial-----><-----Reality

[Rickdogg]

You are right. I was eating while grading like I stated. It was a quick glance. Either way it's still not a Near Mint if you use the same standards across all eras. I just wanted to prove that point since some people still believe CGC is not impartial. Yeah right.

 

Since that corner crease is discounted VF+ using non bias era grading.

[Kevin76]

I saw the Avengers 1 9.4..it's very nice.It's not a 7.0 the corners are NOT rounded they are "nicked" but still somewhat sharp,spine creases are small and almost invisible.Nice book,could have been a real nice 9.2 but most of the time you can't see all the defects through the case Kev

[fantastic_four]

What was the original grade?

 

Looks like a 9.2 to me. Nowhere close to an 8.0.

[tb]

Looks like a 9.0-9.2 to me; not a 9.4 but just as certainly not below 9.0 either.

 

Of course CGC makes mistakes from time to time. On the average, though, they have done a fantastic job. The fact that they opened this board to let all of us criticize both them and Heritage is a pretty clear proof that the management is serious about our opinions and eager to learn and improve.

 

For every CGC oops! that our little inner circle can agree on, you only need to browse through Heritage's catalog or eBay to see 20 or 50 superb grading jobs. If it had been otherwise, CGC would have been out of business long ago.

 

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

Hey Ricky, Either we have some overgraders here or people that have NOT read the OverStreet grading definitions in quite some time. I'll take the work out of it for our fellow comic book enthusiasts:

 

The OverSteet Spine stress guide for VF-NM grades

 

NM - "stress marks should be almost invisible"

VF - "Spine may have a couple [that means two] of almost insignificant transverse stress lines"

 

It looks to me like the Avengers # 1 has spine stress marks that do break color which would make them visible. How many stress marks do you count?

[Goliath-migration]

I agree, this continues to be a quality control issue that they can perhaps continue to address by comparitive examples. That's the reason I started this post, to help them improve their product through contructive criticism. And I also agree with Rickdog, the differences between these "as nice as they get" silver age books and the scrutiny employed on the modern & bronze books is noticable and concerning. Thanks for all the input.

[Rickdogg]

MOS,

 

I think a lot of people are grading along CGC "guidelines." If we used Overstreet guidelines, books with 3 holes in them wouldn't be green label 9.2's either. Suddenly I feel the urge to sell all of my CGC books.

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

Maybe you could tell me what CGC "guidelines" are?