What book started the Bronze Age of Comics???? 2 2

[joe_collector]

What are you talking about? The GL issues were near a year before the Spidey drug issues?

 

No there were not:

 

Amazing Spider-Man, The #96

1963 Series - Marvel, May 1971, coverprice 0.15 , 36 pages.

 

Green Lantern 85

1960 Series - DC, August-September 1971, coverprice 0.25 , 52 pages.

 

Just to refresh your memory, here's the original post you are ALL disagreeing with:

 

Marvel did it first, they knowingly took on the code, took a risk and they did it with their most popular book! Harry was hooked on something (pills, acid, something) and having flashbacks, a lot earlier than Speedy was.

[awe4one]

What are you talking about? The GL issues were near a year before the Spidey drug issues?

 

No there were not:

 

Amazing Spider-Man, The #96

1963 Series - Marvel, May 1971, coverprice 0.15 , 36 pages.

 

Green Lantern 85

1960 Series - DC, August-September 1971, coverprice 0.25 , 52 pages.

 

Just to refresh your memory, here's the original post you are ALL disagreeing with:

 

Marvel did it first, they knowingly took on the code, took a risk and they did it with their most popular book! Harry was hooked on something (pills, acid, something) and having flashbacks, a lot earlier than Speedy was.

 

Vince...GL #76 was cover dated April 1970...

 

Jim

[joe_collector]

 

You're trying to be funny right?

 

Once again, the original post that we're talking about:

 

Marvel did it first, they knowingly took on the code, took a risk and they did it with their most popular book! Harry was hooked on something (pills, acid, something) and having flashbacks, a lot EARLIER than Speedy was.

 

[jkc313]

Admittedly I'm WAY late on this thread but have read it through and find it very interesting. 15-20 years ago, it was generally accepted that the bronze Age began when Marvel stopped TTA, TOS, and Strange Tales and gave Iron Man,Subby, Cap, and dr dtrange their own books. Silver surfer #1 also appeared and had his origin. This took place over a few months in 1968. Of course, two years earlier, JIMwas stopped and Thor took over with issue #126. I really didn't give this much thought but didn't really like this arbitrary beginning. I see on this thread a great deal of interest in subscribing the start to a specific book, so here's my two cents worth. I didn't buy Showcase #4 on the stands but did get a Flash 105 in my Easter Basket when I was 7 or 8.I was immediately enthralled. Up until then, I was only reading funny animals and Archie publications, and superman/Batman books. The Flash was new and different. The reason the Silver Age starts with Showcase #4 and not Detective 225 or Ff1, was it was the first book that shook up the industry. It was new, exciting and headed comics in a new direction. What Marvel did in 1968 was just continue their old characters in new titles. I didn't find any of them particularly interesting and had already tired of DC. The only thing I still read was an occasional Barks Scrooge. Comics for me and others I grew up with had become boring. One of you probably has better numbers but I believe sales were off then also. Then one day while sitting in a bus station in 1970 waiting to go back to college, I saw a book on the spinning shelf I had never heard of, It was Conan #1 and after reading it I was back, and it seemed a lot of others were too. To me, it's the seminal Bronze book and set the stage for the deluge that followed. Kirby's Fourth World, Spidey Drug Issues,Hulk 181, New X-Men all are important Bronxe books but IMHO Conan kick started it. I'd also remind people that the new X-Men didn't take off until issue 108. I had already started doing comic shows in the mid to late 70's and remember not being able to move any new X-Men even mint copies of 94. After Byrne took over all hell broke loose and the rest is history. I also don't mean to diss the Adams Green Lanterns. As a run, they're still among my favorites and 76 is all but impossible to find in high grade but I think Conan started it all/

 

keith contarino

[Zonker]

I do believe Marvel was first in introducing codeless drug stories to the world, and that GL/GA followed their lead.

 

I agree with this 100%. (Though actually, by the time GL/GA 85, 86 were published, the code had been liberalized, and those books came out with the code seal)

 

 

... he's talking about the codeless DRUG ISSUES, which translated (using 20/20 hindsight) into a growing appreciation for the ENTIRE GL/GA run, which started in 1970.

 

 

In order to agree with this, I'd have to believe that the importance of GL/GA #76 was only recognized in hindsight, after the subsequent drug issues #85 & #86 were published. A bit before my time, but I've never seen any reference to this being the case.

[Zonker]

And CGCWorld raises an interesting point: What were the first Spidey Bronze Age books?

 

The first issue published after Conan #1? #89

 

The first issue published with a 1970 cover date? #80?

 

My old idea was the first Bronze ASM was the first one Stan delegated to someone else to write, #101. Turning the flagship over to the understudy was yet another indication of the Marvel Age of Comics losing its original cohesion.

 

But in retrospect the ASM drug issues are a lot more Bronze Age than Silver, so dating the first Bronze ASM as late as 1971 will not do.

 

So what's the first Bronze Spidey???

 

(paging FFB, paging FFB)

[Aman619]

Im partial to the 15 cent changeover myself. When I catalog my books, thats when I switch from Silver to Bronze.

[joe_collector]

In order to agree with this, I'd have to believe that the importance of GL/GA #76 was only recognized in hindsight, after the subsequent drug issues #85 & #86 were published. A bit before my time, but I've never seen any reference to this being the case.

 

Essentially, the "drug issues" got the series its main press attention, and in turn, got people interested in the whole run. If GL/GA 85 & 86 had never been published, I sincerely doubt that GL/GA 76 would be as popular and revered.

[joe_collector]

So what's the first Bronze Spidey???

 

ASM 101 (or the last page of ASM 100) with the 6-armed, Morbius vampire-killing machine, freakshow story.

 

The BA for Marvel had nothing to do with drugs or social issues, and everything to do with death, anti-heroes, and inserting horror elements into the superhero world.

 

For example, go back through the previous 100 ASM issues and find me a villain who hunts and kills people indiscriminantly, and does so in such a gory method as the black-hearted Morbius.

[jimm94]

To me, the bronze age began in earnest with the switch to 20 cent cover prices. However, I consider certain titles like Conan that began in the 15 cent era to be bronze age transitional books. I think of 15 centers that started their run during the 12 cent era to be silver age comics, although there is certainly a gradual transition in style and content for most of these books as well.

[Markusrex-migration]

Im partial to the 15 cent changeover myself. When I catalog my books, thats when I switch from Silver to Bronze.

 

Just for the sake of simplicity, I use this method also. BA = 15 to 50 cent covers.

[Timulty]

For me, I see at least for DC, that the stories go more to horror or weird types. Once could infer House of Secrets 92 would be the start, since introduced one of the most significant horror characters of the Bronze Age. But I like the point made that the story content went from the fantastic to reality. So you have the GA/GL stories. Now for Marvel, I have no clue. Really don't read any of those. So, it may be a Marvel book will be the starter.

[awe4one]

 

You're trying to be funny right?

 

Once again, the original post that we're talking about:

 

Marvel did it first, they knowingly took on the code, took a risk and they did it with their most popular book! Harry was hooked on something (pills, acid, something) and having flashbacks, a lot EARLIER than Speedy was.

 

 

My bad...I thought we were still talking about relevant comics with GL #76 being the first...

 

I was wondering why you referenced #85...

 

Jim

[Theagenes]

Kind of cool that this thread got bumped since it was the first thread I ever posted when I joined a couple of years ago. I still have to go with my original pick for all the reasons in my original long-winded post a few pages back - Conan #1.

[Aman619]

In order to agree with this, I'd have to believe that the importance of GL/GA #76 was only recognized in hindsight, after the subsequent drug issues #85 & #86 were published. A bit before my time, but I've never seen any reference to this being the case.

 

Essentially, the "drug issues" got the series its main press attention, and in turn, got people interested in the whole run. If GL/GA 85 & 86 had never been published, I sincerely doubt that GL/GA 76 would be as popular and revered.

 

thats nonsense, and revisionist history. I was there, youngster! I was there! and when that black guy chastisesd Hal Jordan for not doing nuthing for the black skins, the entire comics business said WHAAAAAA??? Civilization Halt! (Firesign Theatre reference)

 

plus Adams interior artwork made the whole series from #76 a classic in the making. Dont you remember GL was going to be cancelled? and the Oneal /Adams work saved it? It took DC only a few months to realize they had a hit on their hands with theor new RELAVANT approach.

 

The drug issues were actually the LAST issues done... after they had tackled all the other topical political/social issues of the late 60s.

[Zonker]

Decided to rescue this post from one of the many other threads tangential to this one. I'll have to see if I can find the original NY Times Magazine article I downloaded at the time. I had thought the GL/GA relevance made a pretty big splash even prior to the drug issues (after all, they did slumlords, racism, a thinly-veiled Manson story, an Agnew caracature, a satire of the Chicago Seven trial, etc.) If this piece was published May 2, it would have been within a month or so one way or another of the time of the on-sale date of GL #85 (cover date Aug/Sep 1971), so who knows? I'm now interested in re-reading the NYT story to see if the GL/GA drug issues were part of that piece's hook.

 

** Edited to add-- I just took a look at the next issue blurb at the end of GL/GA #84: the next issue was projected to go on sale June 24, so the NYT piece is at least one example of mainstream hype, a couple of months prior to the DC drug books.

 

Braun, Saul. "Shazam! Here Comes Captain Relevant", New York Times, May 2, 1971, pg.SM32. (This is a long article from the NYT Magazine that is a treasure trove of info on how great the push for greater content flexibility was in the industry at the dawn of the 70s. Excellent stuff from Lee, Goodman, Infantino, Kirby, and more. A must read IMO if the emergence of the Bronze Age is of interest.)

 

_douglas

 

Thanks for the pointer, Douglas. I just downloaded the Saul Braun article. A great artifact from the times. Interesting though that it spends most of its time talking about:

- the Spidey drug books

- GL/GA

- Kirby's 4th World books

- even Archie tackling environmental and diversity issues!

 

Captain America, Black Widow, Lois Lane also merit mention, but no word on Conan or the New/Old Look Batman by O'Neil & Adams.

 

And of course, not to beat a dead horse, but all the above stuff was in the works well before any CCA revision.

 

I was particularly interested in the quotes from Carmine Infantino and Stan Lee: They both seem to acknowledge that the 1970 relevance experiment was DC's attempt to leapfrog past Marvel. The "Marvel Age," beginning in 1961, had clearly made the older DC Silver Age approach obsolete. Infantino is really crowing here about his GL/GA and New Gods, while Stan comes across as having a justifiable case of sour grapes, since the super-heroes-in-the-real-world approach is something he had popularized years before.

 

Of course, Stan had the last laugh as the DC experiments failed, Infantino was sacked, and by the middle of the 1970s Marvel was on top to stay...

Edited January 16, 2006 by Zonker

[Aman619]

sheeeshhh!

[joe_collector]

** Edited to add-- I just took a look at the next issue blurb at the end of GL/GA #84: the next issue was projected to go on sale June 24, so the NYT piece is at least one example of mainstream hype, a couple of months prior to the DC drug books.

 

That's a good call, as I have see many articles on the "real life take" on drugs with GL/GA in various reprints, but I guess at least one article covered the initial start. I think I've been painted as an "anti-GL/GA 76" guy, when in reality I love the comic and it's one of the few DCs I own and plan to keep.

 

My only point was that the drug issue in 85-86 were the crowning achievement of the run, and helped cement it, due to mainstream media coverage, as a classic. If you reread my comments, in no way am I saying that GL/GA 76 would not be remembered had the drug issues never been published, only that their effect and influence would be muted.

 

I still stand by that, just the same was I feel that the BA ASM run would not be looked at the same way without ASM 121-122.

[jbud73]

Admittedly I'm WAY late on this thread but have read it through and find it very interesting. 15-20 years ago, it was generally accepted that the bronze Age began when Marvel stopped TTA, TOS, and Strange Tales and gave Iron Man,Subby, Cap, and dr dtrange their own books. Silver surfer #1 also appeared and had his origin. This took place over a few months in 1968. Of course, two years earlier, JIMwas stopped and Thor took over with issue #126. I really didn't give this much thought but didn't really like this arbitrary beginning. I see on this thread a great deal of interest in subscribing the start to a specific book, so here's my two cents worth. I didn't buy Showcase #4 on the stands but did get a Flash 105 in my Easter Basket when I was 7 or 8.I was immediately enthralled. Up until then, I was only reading funny animals and Archie publications, and superman/Batman books. The Flash was new and different. The reason the Silver Age starts with Showcase #4 and not Detective 225 or Ff1, was it was the first book that shook up the industry. It was new, exciting and headed comics in a new direction. What Marvel did in 1968 was just continue their old characters in new titles. I didn't find any of them particularly interesting and had already tired of DC. The only thing I still read was an occasional Barks Scrooge. Comics for me and others I grew up with had become boring. One of you probably has better numbers but I believe sales were off then also. Then one day while sitting in a bus station in 1970 waiting to go back to college, I saw a book on the spinning shelf I had never heard of, It was Conan #1 and after reading it I was back, and it seemed a lot of others were too. To me, it's the seminal Bronze book and set the stage for the deluge that followed. Kirby's Fourth World, Spidey Drug Issues,Hulk 181, New X-Men all are important Bronxe books but IMHO Conan kick started it. I'd also remind people that the new X-Men didn't take off until issue 108. I had already started doing comic shows in the mid to late 70's and remember not being able to move any new X-Men even mint copies of 94. After Byrne took over all hell broke loose and the rest is history. I also don't mean to diss the Adams Green Lanterns. As a run, they're still among my favorites and 76 is all but impossible to find in high grade but I think Conan started it all/

 

keith contarino

 

Thats a nice post Keith, I think the key for me is the a shift in paradigm - now while this is encapsulated in a single books for the emergence of the SA. Could it be for the BA that it does NOT occur in a single book, but is found in a few storylines all seeking to either circumvent or push the envelope of the CCA.

 

Now JC's point of the Payoff in the GL books coming after 76 is valid, however the seed was set in 76. So it may be that a trio of books that established the BA: GL 76, Conan 1 and ASM 96. Each of these books tried to bring a higher level of realism and more importantly Grit to its readership through new approaches to story and art.

[tth2]

Now JC's point of the Payoff in the GL books coming after 76 is valid, however the seed was set in 76. So it may be that a trio of books that established the BA: GL 76, Conan 1 and ASM 96. Each of these books tried to bring a higher level of realism and more importantly Grit to its readership through new approaches to story and art.

All the arguments have merit. However, this just reinforces the point that there is no clear single comic that started the BA.