For me, The Copper Age began....

[Bosco685]

79-81 is still solidly Bronze, across the board.

Okay, so you have stated this multiple times now. What are your assumptions for believing this to be true other than restating it to make it a reality?

 

[Cimm]

You keep trying to make this an all-inclusive thing, RMA... the Copper Age just wasn't like that. I know it doesn't make things tidy and concrete the way we collectors like them, but the Copper Age moved at the direction of the creative mind, and it was far too right-brained for logical, concise, or exact... well, exact anything, really. All of Joe's examples are indeed Copper beginnings... and most of your examples are Bronze events, despite the fact that they occurred concurrently (I think maybe Kitty Pryde was Copper, but I am by no means an X-Men authority). I don't know if you were there or not? but I was, and, from my perspective, and in my hindsight, there were only absolute lines within individual series, and they happened across a range of years culminating in what we refer to as "The Copper Age".

[Prince Namor]

I think that Miller and Byrne's DD and FF run is a great example of the coming Copper Age, but MOST of the rest of the industry was firmly planted in a Bronze Age.

There are of course other examples of the coming age happening, but overall, the mainstream was pretty stagnant.

 

I compare it to the start of the Bronze Age and all that was going on prior to 1970. To ME, Steranko's Starnge Tales run may be a Silver Age book, but it was a sign of things to come. Compare Strange Adventures 205 to Adams taking over the next issue... a world of difference. It may be Silver, but it was pointing to the future. (And that was 1967!)

 

In 1985, you had DK, TMNT, and Miracleman, with Watchmen coming the following year. Those are 4 books that clearly defined a change and I think really kicks off the Copper Age.

[Prince Namor]

It's a tough call, when you think of Dave Stevens work, Rocketeer even feels Copper... Eclipse and Pacific feel Copper... I just think for industry changing books, DK, TMNT, MM and Watchmen really made the difference...

[RockMyAmadeus]

You keep trying to make this an all-inclusive thing, RMA... the Copper Age just wasn't like that. I know it doesn't make things tidy and concrete the way we collectors like them, but the Copper Age moved at the direction of the creative mind, and it was far too right-brained for logical, concise, or exact... well, exact anything, really. All of Joe's examples are indeed Copper beginnings... and most of your examples are Bronze events, despite the fact that they occurred concurrently (I think maybe Kitty Pryde was Copper, but I am by no means an X-Men authority). I don't know if you were there or not? but I was, and, from my perspective, and in my hindsight, there were only absolute lines within individual series, and they happened across a range of years culminating in what we refer to as "The Copper Age".

 

Cimm...Cimm Cimm Cimm....have you read anything I've ever written about the origins of the Copper Age? :shrug:

 

I've written EXTENSIVELY on the very idea you're talking about, and even supported the comments you made earlier in this very thread, not 10 posts up.

 

To summarize: There is no one "event" (like Action #1, or, to a lesser extent, Showcase #4 and Conan #1/GL #76) book that started off the Copper Age. There is most likely a TRANSITION PERIOD between Bronze and Copper, that generally covers the years 1980-1984.

 

We can say with pretty good surety that by 1984, pretty much everything being published was "Copper" in tone, look, and feel. But we can also say with just as much surety that hardly anything in 1981 had that same vibe. Certainly there were hints (just as there were hints of the Golden, Silver, and Bronze ages), but the entire period was one of great transition and upheaval. It's simply not possible to tie things down and say "THIS was the start of the Copper Age or THAT was the end of the Bronze age."

 

Not possible.

 

So, no, I have never EVER tried to make this "an all-inclusive thing" as you put it, and, in fact, am on record in several places, at several different times, as stating the precise opposite.

 

Please, judge me by what I actually say, not by what others, who may or may not have their own agendas, are saying I "said."

 

Fair enough?

 

 

[Cimm]

Completely fair, and actually, I have only been seriously paying attention to the Copper discussion threads for a couple of weeks, so I have no real idea whether or not I have read your position before or not. I have all for short-term memory,

 

My apologies, and thanks for clarifying (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think that Miller and Byrne's DD and FF run is a great example of the coming Copper Age, but MOST of the rest of the industry was firmly planted in a Bronze Age.

There are of course other examples of the coming age happening, but overall, the mainstream was pretty stagnant.

 

I compare it to the start of the Bronze Age and all that was going on prior to 1970. To ME, Steranko's Starnge Tales run may be a Silver Age book, but it was a sign of things to come. Compare Strange Adventures 205 to Adams taking over the next issue... a world of difference. It may be Silver, but it was pointing to the future. (And that was 1967!)

 

In 1985, you had DK, TMNT, and Miracleman, with Watchmen coming the following year. Those are 4 books that clearly defined a change and I think really kicks off the Copper Age.

 

I don't think Miller's DD run is Copper in any way. I think it is the absolute apex, the epitome, of Bronze Age greatness.

 

Ronin, on the other hand, is Copper through and through.

 

Miller's SECOND DD run is Copper through and through.

 

But his first run? The best of the Bronze, much like Dark Phoenix.

 

Byrne's runs on X-Men and Fantastic Four, one beginning a mere four months after the other ended, is a perfect example of Bronze vs. Copper. His X-Men is Bronze epitomized. His FF is Copper.

 

For the record, Dark Knight was a 1986 book.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Completely fair, and actually, I have only been seriously paying attention to the Copper discussion threads for a couple of weeks, so I have no real idea whether or not I have read your position before or not. I have all for short-term memory,

 

My apologies, and thanks for clarifying (thumbs u

 

No problem... I like when I understand other people and they understand me.

 

 

[Cimm]

79-81 is still solidly Bronze, across the board.

 

However, I do think this is an all-inclusive statement, and in that light, is wrong. I guess we will have to agree to disagree about the first Miller run. For me, it is very much Copper, and quite possibly, signifies the first impact event that would bring on the changes in the rest of the comics publishing industry that make the Copper Age so great.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I am also of the opinion that the Copper Age did NOT end with Valiant, Image, and the Death of Superman....but rather, these events were the culmination of many different threads weaving in and out of the age, and represent the very best...or, if you prefer, the very worst....the Copper Age had to offer. Nothing changed for Superman...it was a cheat. Image wasn't really anything innovative. Consider Starlin on Dreadstar, and Byrne on Next Men, and Miller on Sin City. The guys who formed Image had already done pretty much all they could do with their respective careers at "The Big Two" (Jim Lee, for example, would never have become Exec VP at DC had it not been for Image.) And Valiant was, in essence, just the continuation of what Jim Shooter wanted to do, and even tried to do, with New Universe, and failed.

 

What DID change, however, is the long, slow slide we now call the Crash, which took place between 1993-1995. In 1993, *most* of the age was still chugging along at full speed, almost completely intact. "The Event", a solid Copper innovation, was still a major part of comics publishing.

 

By 1996, the whole thing had fallen apart, and the comics industry was looking at its worst period since the mi/late 70's.

 

So...somewhere between 1994-1996, the age ended. Not with a bang, but a whimper. Then, from 1996-2000, we see another transition period. and comics reach their lowest point in history. Those around in 1999-2001 remember how hideous it really was. And it was AWFUL. New Spidey books selling in the FIVE digits. Acclaim books struggling to sell in the mid FOUR digits. Stalwart Marvel & DC titles struggling to sell 30-40,000 copies. Forget back issues.

 

Then, 2000, Ultimate Spiderman #1 goes a long way to revitalizing the industry, and a new "period" is born...

 

But really? In all of this? We cannot endless keep coming up with names for 7-10 year periods and call them "ages." Those coming after us will not tolerate this much longer, I assure you.

 

It's time, really, we just started calling them by their decades.

[RockMyAmadeus]

79-81 is still solidly Bronze, across the board.

 

However, I do think this is an all-inclusive statement, and in that light, is wrong.

 

"solidly Bronze" does not mean "everything published is Bronze." It means "the majority" or "most", and is therefore not "all-inclusive." "Across the baord" in this case, means "across all publishers."

 

The period between 1979-1981 was still solidly Bronze. I doubt you'lll get any serious scholars suggesting otherwise.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree about the first Miller run. For me, it is very much Copper, and quite possibly, signifies the first impact event that would bring on the changes in the rest of the comics publishing industry that make the Copper Age so great.

 

You are wildly overestimating Frank Miller's impact on comics via his first DD run.

 

First of all, Miller didn't even write the series until nearly two years into his run. DD #158-167 are about as Bronze in look and feel as it gets. Miller made quite a splash..as an artist. And while his first run is memorable, Miller did not attain status as a writer equal to that of his art until Dark Knight.

 

Miller had nothing to do with John Byrne on FF.

 

Miller had nothing to do with Alan Moore on Swamp Thing.

 

Miller had nothing to do with the X-Men, outside of Wolverine, which he got because he was the hot artist du jour (and there was no way Claremont wasn't going to write it.)

 

Miller had nothing to do with the New Teen Titans.

 

Miller took a nearly cancelled Marvel stalwart and made him relevant again. But that's all he did with his first run on DD. His broad impact on comics would come, but it would not come until much later, during a time when the Copper Age was already in full swing.

[Cimm]

It's time, really, we just started calling them by their decades.

 

Absolutely agree 100%.

[Cimm]

signifies the first impact event that would bring on the changes

 

I do not think that Miller, in and of himself, influenced the era.. but I do think he was the first of many things that signified change.

 

 

[Bosco685]

signifies the first impact event that would bring on the changes

 

I do not think that Miller, in and of himself, influenced the era.. but I do think he was the first of many things that signified change.

And that is part of the criteria CGC will have to lock down when they kick off and sponsor the event to determine the Copper Age period.

 

1) Did the Copper Age officially take place during the beginning influence of the catalysts that drove change into the comic industry, or once their influence was officially recognized by the industry?

 

2) What were those events that most would agree were the elements of change to the comic industry's practices?

 

Some are taking the stance that all changes had to finalize in order to state the Copper Age was now in full bloom. That is an approach to determining a final answer - not the hard-fast rule. What the criteria is in order to finalize an answer is still to be determined. So anyone writing off others because you are not following THEIR approach to the problem is not being very open-minded and collaborative to finalize a group answer. They are just trying to force their belief on others, and doing it in a demeaning way.

 

And honestly, I used to be of the opinion it was one book that led the charge. But as the very educational discussions have occurred outside of the pettiness and contemptible comments, I'm very much a believer multiple events influenced the transition into the Copper Age. Thanks folks for helping me see the light a while back.

 

It's for the group to determine at what point these events make for a true transition from one age to another.

[Jeffro.]

Rocky, you have to be the craziest board member on here, and not because of your views, but from the mentally-imbalanced-as-a-sheithouse-rat way you put them forth.

 

I actually think you enjoy being the only person on Earth who agrees with Bob Overstreet that the CA began in 1985.

 

 

RMA is right on the money about this though...

 

And you have a habit of virulently dismissing anything and anyone who doesn't agree with you.

[Jeffro.]

Unfortunately, I don't think you can point to any one book, or event, or time period as starting the Copper Age. I think the start point is different for every single title, character and company. By 1986/87, everything was Copper, but it was a change that took place over a period of 6 to 7 years.

 

You can point to this title, and that issue, and be perfectly correct, but that will bear little to no relevance to any other title or company or character.

 

I think, perhaps, the best we could do is lock down when the Copper Age was all-inclusive, at what period in time there were no longer any Bronze titles left, when all of the characters had interacted with the rest of the Marvel or DC Universes to be included in this new Age.

 

In my opinion, and take this for what it is worth (and it ain't much!)... I think it was during the Millenium event that the entire DCU finally converted to the Copper Age, and it was during the Secret Wars that the entire Marvel Universe converted. First Comics was Copper Age from its inception, as was Pacific, Eclipse, and Eternity. Cerebus was Bronze Age from beginning to end.

 

Again, take it for what it is worth. About

 

I tend to agree. Lately, the idea of a transitional mini-age (Cronze? ) is an idea I really like.

[kdoginohio]

I luv these debates.

As for me, timelines only matter when I'm subbing and need a price tier.

[Bosco685]

Lately, the idea of a transitional mini-age (Cronze? ) is an idea I really like.

 

I am sticking to collecting just Cronze Age now!

 

When does CGC implement the new forum area?

[Cimm]

Lately, the idea of a transitional mini-age (Cronze? ) is an idea I really like.

 

I am sticking to collecting just Cronze Age now!

 

When does CGC implement the new forum area?

 

See... that opens up a whole new can of worms, Jeffro, 'cause I prefer Bopper

[Bosco685]