Market corrections in September Clink auction results?

[fantastic_four]

I see marvel chipping as not just a printing defect, but a visual indication of the condition of the paper. Thus I agree with CGC hitting most of those hard. More specifically I do hope that they grade the books based on the paper condition, not whether there are visible chunks or chips or pre-chipping there.

 

I'm not understanding what you're saying...how are visible chunks, chips, and pre-chipping somehow separate from paper condition? Defects like those ARE part of the paper's condition.

[mysterio]

I see marvel chipping as not just a printing defect, but a visual indication of the condition of the paper. Thus I agree with CGC hitting most of those hard. More specifically I do hope that they grade the books based on the paper condition, not whether there are visible chunks or chips or pre-chipping there.

 

I'm not understanding what you're saying...how are visible chunks, chips, and pre-chipping somehow separate from paper condition? Defects like those ARE part of the paper's condition.

 

I read that to mean that the paper is more brittle if it chipped, like a chipped cover is more brittle than an unchipped one, but correct me if I misinterpreted.

[showcase22gr1959]

I see marvel chipping as not just a printing defect, but a visual indication of the condition of the paper. Thus I agree with CGC hitting most of those hard. More specifically I do hope that they grade the books based on the paper condition, not whether there are visible chunks or chips or pre-chipping there.

 

I'm not understanding what you're saying...how are visible chunks, chips, and pre-chipping somehow separate from paper condition? Defects like those ARE part of the paper's condition.

 

I read that to mean that the paper is more brittle if it chipped, like a chipped cover is more brittle than an unchipped one, but correct me if I misinterpreted.

 

I don't see the paper is more brittle if chipped. It chipped because of the poor cutter used during the early Marvel days. Also, brittle is caused by poor preservation .

[Peter Loves Gwen]

I do mean that both chipping and brittle paper are bad things. I added the word "just" to my one sentence of my post to be more clear on that. I have a few ASM with marvel chipping, and most of them are to some extent brittle. I grew up thinking that poor quality paper was part of the cause of the chipping. My ASM 5.5 that I just got back has marvel chipping. When I placed it in the bag which I shipped it in to be graded, one "chip" was caught on the edge of the bag just enough to dislodge it so it's barely hanging on. I see that condition as bad paper, not just some event that happened 47 years ago at the printer. I think the PQ has something to do with the problem.

 

Anything which detracts from the appearance is not good, whether it is a printing defect or not. I would prefer that grading weigh the affect on appearance and the cause. Be a little easier on printing defects, but only slightly(benefit of the doubt etc). Don't be harsh on stuff that's on the back or inside etc. The printing defects that don't greatly hurt the appearance should be ignored as much as they can be, like the lines of pinched paper.

 

As for the comics market, I think one point has been left out of this discussion. The very poor economy has had the affect of pushing a lot of collectors to sell things they might not have before. The supply is surely better now because of the bad economy. Regards,

[mysterio]

As for the comics market, I think one point has been left out of this discussion. The very poor economy has had the affect of pushing a lot of collectors to sell things they might not have before. The supply is surely better now because of the bad economy. Regards,

 

It seems to be a double-whammy to prices. Supply has gone up because collectors are selling books they otherwise wouldn't be, and demand is down because people don't have the disposable income to spend on comics. This is the perfect storm for buying though, as many people have pointed out.

 

As for the chipping discussion, I wasn't saying that I necessarily equated chipping with brittleness, just that I was interpreting Peter's statement that way. Chipped covers can be supple and have good PQ. I do agree that interior or back cover defects also shouldn't be judged as harshly as front cover defects in assigning a grade, but I also know that a lot of people would disagree with that.

[VintageComics]

As for the comics market, I think one point has been left out of this discussion. The very poor economy has had the affect of pushing a lot of collectors to sell things they might not have before. The supply is surely better now because of the bad economy. Regards,

 

Yup, this is a big one as well.

 

If we see an economic upswing it is very possible, and even likely that buying activity would increase again as well.

 

(thumbs u

[etanick]

Is it me or does it seems the supplies are starting to slow down also? It might be too early but next month CL auction is quite slim and as the November Heritage auction.

 

I have followed CL for 2 years since I return to this hobby and I can't recall a CL auction with so few books like the one next month. Lets see what the next 2 weeks will add.

[mysterio]

Is it me or does it seems the supplies are starting to slow down also? It might be too early but next month CL auction is quite slim and as the November Heritage auction.

 

I have followed CL for 2 years since I return to this hobby and I can't recall a CL auction with so few books like the one next month. Lets see what the next 2 weeks will add.

 

Yeah, it is still early for the October auction. It should fill up in the next couple of weeks.

[VintageComics]

Is it me or does it seems the supplies are starting to slow down also? It might be too early but next month CL auction is quite slim and as the November Heritage auction.

 

I have followed CL for 2 years since I return to this hobby and I can't recall a CL auction with so few books like the one next month. Lets see what the next 2 weeks will add.

 

I have noticed a little less quality material coming to market over all.

 

 

[fantastic_four]

I have a few ASM with marvel chipping, and most of them are to some extent brittle. I grew up thinking that poor quality paper was part of the cause of the chipping. My ASM 5.5 that I just got back has marvel chipping. When I placed it in the bag which I shipped it in to be graded, one "chip" was caught on the edge of the bag just enough to dislodge it so it's barely hanging on. I see that condition as bad paper, not just some event that happened 47 years ago at the printer. I think the PQ has something to do with the problem.

 

You sure they were brittle? I have never seen a Marvel comic with brittle pages; I've only seen it on Golden Age books. I'm convinced they're out there because I know some have been stored in sheds or hot attics, but I have yet to see one.

 

Definitely chips due to brittleness are a far worse defect than any semi-reasonable printing defect...I just can't see much aesthetic difference between a chip on a white-paged book and a handling tear of the same surface area on that same white-paged book and am baffled as to why some people think they should be counted differently.

[fantastic_four]

I have followed CL for 2 years since I return to this hobby and I can't recall a CL auction with so few books like the one next month.

 

I have--they're all empty right after the previous one ends, it's too early. Plus the big ones are only every three months, they just had a big one last month, so when big books come in for consignment, Josh suggests holding off until the next big auction.

[ft88]

The argument I make against chipping is that it is impossible to say if it's a pure prduction flaw or part of the human handling. Many a small tear can get folded back and then "chip" off well after production. To me it's just a common flaw and has to be incorporated like any other. But missing paper on the cover is a huge problem IMO.

[innocuous]

I wonder how much lower the market can go. I just spent the most ever on a comic in the just finished ComicConnect auction. The price was low compared to the past 18 months, so I jumped in. Wonder if it could have been had for less?

[adamstrange]

The argument I make against chipping is that it is impossible to say if it's a pure prduction flaw or part of the human handling. Many a small tear can get folded back and then "chip" off well after production. To me it's just a common flaw and has to be incorporated like any other. But missing paper on the cover is a huge problem IMO.

Marvel chipping is due to extreme high pressure exerted by a dull blade on the press. It is visibly different than anything a human would produce.

[Galactus]

I wonder how much lower the market can go. I just spent the most ever on a comic in the just finished ComicConnect auction. The price was low compared to the past 18 months, so I jumped in. Wonder if it could have been had for less?

 

What is the perception on key issues, are they mostly still on the rise or have even these flat lined ?

[fantastic_four]

The argument I make against chipping is that it is impossible to say if it's a pure prduction flaw or part of the human handling. Many a small tear can get folded back and then "chip" off well after production. To me it's just a common flaw and has to be incorporated like any other. But missing paper on the cover is a huge problem IMO.

Marvel chipping is due to extreme high pressure exerted by a dull blade on the press. It is visibly different than anything a human would produce.

 

I believe he means that when you see a missing chip, you don't know if it was ripped off during production or if it was a production pre-chip that a human tore off later. He's right, people tear off loose pre-chips when opening a comic all the time.

[fantastic_four]

I wonder how much lower the market can go. I just spent the most ever on a comic in the just finished ComicConnect auction. The price was low compared to the past 18 months, so I jumped in. Wonder if it could have been had for less?

 

What is the perception on key issues, are they mostly still on the rise or have even these flat lined ?

 

Primarily flat, with some rare and usually-minor exceptions.

[tabcom]

. . . The sagging economy is probably playing a part, but the truly scarce books are still bringing out the big bucks regardless.

 

IMO, >50% of the collectors are immune of the general economic climate and are more discriminating regarding what they want to own.

[etanick]

Is it me or does it seems the supplies are starting to slow down also? It might be too early but next month CL auction is quite slim and as the November Heritage auction.

 

I have followed CL for 2 years since I return to this hobby and I can't recall a CL auction with so few books like the one next month. Lets see what the next 2 weeks will add.

 

I have noticed a little less quality material coming to market over all.

 

 

I am going to start compiling some data going forward just for fun.

 

While doing just the numbers of books alone per auction is not enough...it is one measure we can use

 

Heritage Signature Comic auctions

2/09 - 1504

5/09 - 1314

11/09 - 1568

2/10 - 1435

5/10 - 1197

8/10 - 1034

11/10 - ? so far with only 10 days left to consign, we are barely at 522. Let see how this unfold

 

ComicLink

I only used the numbers mentioned in their emails each month when the auction started. Sometimes CL mentioned a number of books, sometimes they don't and the numbers are rounded so it is not an exact.

1/09 - 3400

2/09 - 2700

6/09 - 3000

7/09 - 2300

8/09 - 2000

9/09 - 2400

10/09 - 2500

11/09 - 2100

12/09 - 2600

1/10 - 4200

2/10 - 2100

3/10 - 3500

4/10 - 2000

5/10 - 2000

6/10 - 2500

9/10 - 2400

 

Lets see how 10/10 will shape up for CL

 

As I mentioned, shear numbers of books alone is not enough to make a definite statement of any sorts on the general direction of the market but no doubt Heritage is down this year compared to last year but not so much at CL.

[MarkWoodcock]

I'm probably making a mistake, but I'll jump into the chipping pool.

 

The fact of the matter is that Marvel chipping is called Marvel chipping (and not Gold Key chipping) because it's peculiar to Marvel comics during a specific duration (I'll defer to others for when it actually began and ended). Rather than being something out of the ordinary, it's actually (and unfortunately) extremely common.

 

TECHNICALLY, the MC is how the books were manufactured and not a "defect". For high grade collectors, it's considered a defect because it's something "missing" from the edge. When the books were sold originally, only the most anal of customers gave a rat's patootie about it. They grabbed the book, took it home and read it - end of subject.

 

In my humble (and many say, definitive) opinion, CGC should not factor in the chipping because it's exactly how the book was manufactured. Grading uses an "off the rack" ideal and that's how it came off the rack.

 

HOWEVER, and there's always a however in these matters, it is up to the MARKET to decide what the value of a book with chipping is.

 

It's too late for CGC to change course, but the least complicated choice would have been for them to ignore it altogether.

 

But what do I know?