What is your opinion of the most difficult grading ranges to grade below 9.0?

[Aces]

Personally the 3 toughest calls in grading (below 9.0) for me are:

 

1) 1.8/2.0 When is a Good bad enough for G- but not Fr/G(1.5)?

 

2) 2.5/3.0 Almost twins?

 

3) 6.5/7.0/7.5 Toughest range for consistent grading. They all look alike?

[rjpb]

For me it's 6.0. Few books look exactly Fine to me. It's either a 5.5 or a 6.5.

 

With 15 grades from 2.0 to 9.0, a .5 range for alot of books seems unavoidable. Often that gap represents the difference between the buyer's and the seller's opinion even when both are being reasonable.

[fantastic_four]

Almost anything below Fine. I never consider buying anything graded that low, so I have very little experience with grading low grade books. In general, grading low grade books is harder than grading high grade ones because there are a lot more defects to identify, measure, and weigh against each other.

[DiceX]

I agree. Anything below Fine, because I usually don't shop for them.

The books I am currently after are all 9.0 and up, with an occasional 8.5.

 

The one exception is a copy of FF#12.

The LCS has a copy that I've been wanting for a while.

The cover is flat, *very* clean, and the inks are bright and glossy.

It has serious Marvel Chipping on it but no major creases or folds.

It's complete and the staples are holding, but there is some wear around them.

I have no idea how to grade it, so I don't know what would be a fair price.

I would LOVE to have it because I doubt I'd ever be able to cough up enough cash for one in 7.0 or better.

I'm just afraid of pulling the trigger on it in fear it would actually grade lower than I thought.

Other than the chipping, it's a seriously good looking book.

Anyone have any idea on how to grade it?

[Peter_Parker59]

I agree with you on point 1) and 2).

 

Regarding point 3), I don't think it's that difficult.

IMO (and according to Overstreet's grading standards), 7.0 is the last grade in which you can have a color-breaking crease (a part from spine stress and staple stress) when you climb up the ladder in grades.

 

6.0 is the last grade in which you can find a spine split.

 

I think the most difficult grading ranges are at the bottom of the scale (you 1) and 2)) and at the upper ones. I honestly acknowledge I couldn't tell a 9.6 from a 9.8 or a 9.9.

 

Just my 2 cents...

[garthgantu]

Almost anything below Fine. I never consider buying anything graded that low, so I have very little experience with grading low grade books. In general, grading low grade books is harder than grading high grade ones because there are a lot more defects to identify, measure, and weigh against each other.

 

I agree, though oddly (or not?) I think the difficulty becomes greater for many people as you go down the scale... that the 'range' for "GD" is probably more than any other grade...with "VG" being a fairly close second...

[joe_collector]

VG/F to F/VF

[rjpb]

The difficulty in evaluating the accumulation of defects becomes especially true when considering anything but the most general wear. Everyone has their own idea of what defects are grade killers and what are acceptable if the rest of the book is above average condition for the grade. This is why I never had that much of an issue with "qualified" grades, CGC or not. In the old days of buying blind through a catalogue, a description like " 3"spine split o/w VF" was more informative than an assigned grade based on the dealer's interpretation of how far down that particular flaw knocked down the grade.

 

What is interesting to me is that in this HG obsessed market, is that while a .5 grade difference in a book under 9.0 may be more arguable than a .2 difference over 9.0( and I'm not sure that it is) - the price multiples for each .2 up the high grade ladder dwarf the differences in value between two grades in a mid to low grade book. This drives the "buy the label" mentality. Whether you or I think a book is a 9.6 or a 9.4 is irrelevant, if the label says 9.6 then the price doubles. If the same book were subject to interpretation every time it changed hands, the price differences would be fractional not multiple on grades between 9.4 & 10.0

[joe_collector]

Whether you or I think a book is a 9.6 or a 9.4 is irrelevant, if the label says 9.6 then the price doubles. If the same book were subject to interpretation every time it changed hands, the price differences would be fractional not multiple on grades between 9.4 & 10.0

 

Of course. That's the reason that Grading Companies come to be, and the reason why they all have an inherent short-term, "house of cards" design to them.

[Rob]

What is interesting to me is that in this HG obsessed market, is that while a .5 grade difference in a book under 9.0 may be more arguable than a .2 difference over 9.0( and I'm not sure that it is) - the price multiples for each .2 up the high grade ladder dwarf the differences in value between two grades in a mid to low grade book. This drives the "buy the label" mentality. Whether you or I think a book is a 9.6 or a 9.4 is irrelevant, if the label says 9.6 then the price doubles. If the same book were subject to interpretation every time it changed hands, the price differences would be fractional not multiple on grades between 9.4 & 10.0

 

The price multiples are based more on collecting something scarce rather than collecting a mint item. The value of a 9.6 over a 9.4 is not so much based on the difference in condition, but rather its scarcity. Sure, it may get a 9.4 the next time you submit it, but the fact of the matter is that the slab says 9.6 and that's a rare thing. So it's not about finding a comic that's worthy of a 9.6 grade, but rather having a slabbed comic that says 9.6 on it. It's hard to do. I agree it's collecting the slabs, as they are what's rare. However, it does have to have a comic in it to be valuable, so it's not entirely slab collecting.

[joe_collector]

The price multiples are based more on collecting something scarce rather than collecting a mint item. The value of a 9.6 over a 9.4 is not so much based on the difference in condition, but rather its scarcity.

 

And that sir, is why graded collectibles ALWAYS peak through the initial phase, and then bottom out. No one really collects plastic slabs, and no one can collect based on scarcity over the long-term, as the numbers move upward on a daily basis.

[Rob]

The price multiples are based more on collecting something scarce rather than collecting a mint item. The value of a 9.6 over a 9.4 is not so much based on the difference in condition, but rather its scarcity.

 

And that sir, is why graded collectibles ALWAYS peak through the initial phase, and then bottom out. No one really collects plastic slabs, and no one can collect based on scarcity over the long-term, as the numbers move upward on a daily basis.

 

I agree to a point. Last year, I was a huge "the sky is falling" proponent. However, just as the population increases, so does the number of hoarders. I agree that the population reports will continue to rise, maybe at a decreasing rate of speed. But it's not as though 9.4+ slabbed copies will be easy to come by.

 

What I think may happen is the HUGE multiples of guide for 9.6 keys may decline. The 9.6 Hulk 181 may only sell for 10x guide instead of 20x (just an example, not accurate figures). But I don't worry about that, as those prices don't even interest me since they're so far out of my range.

 

Collectors will continue to pay more than guide for CGC slabbed comics because it takes the uncertainty out of the grading and restoration questions. You have to remember, a comic that guides for $100 raw will continue to sell around $100. And slabbing it only gives people reason to pay a bit more. So I don't think that aspect of slabbed comics will ever be affected.

[joe_collector]

So I don't think that aspect of slabbed comics will ever be affected.

 

Hey, I've heard it all before from the Coin and Sportscard Grading advocates, and al their bluster still couldn't change market realities.

 

But hey, if everyone understood these concepts, the world would be a pretty boring place.

[DiceX]

And that sir, is why graded collectibles ALWAYS peak through the initial phase, and then bottom out. No one really collects plastic slabs, and no one can collect based on scarcity over the long-term, as the numbers move upward on a daily basis.

 

Exactly. Since Sportscards have seen the up and down, I'll use a few of those as examples...

Raw Card

Graded Card

 

How about a lower priced card...

Raw Card

Graded Card

 

As you can see. Graded cards have bottomed out after the initial peak.

No one really collects plastic slabs.

[Rob]

But, sportscards aren't a good example because there's not a huge range in grade with most cards. I've collected sportscards, and there's not a huge market for older cards, so condition isn't usually an issue. Most cards peak during the season they're released, then drop in value as the player gets older. I'm a Colts fan, and had many $100 Edgerrin rookie cards that now book for $20. So the decline has been more in the interest of players than the slabbed aspect. Since the hot cards are only a year old, most would be in the 9.4 range anyway. I'm sure a Gem Mint 10 Mickey Mantle rookie sells for more than a raw one.

 

And with coins, I don't think the market has crashed. My brother collects PCGS slabbed coins (the CGC of coins, sorry NGC). And the prices realized on eBay are much higher than the Redbook guide price. He collects Ike Dollars, which sell for multiples of guide if slabbed and graded MS 65, 66, or 67.

 

I'm not a CGC fanboy. I only own 1 CGC book, and it's a 7.0. I'm more of a raw kind of guy. But I'm starting to see the value of CGC. But like I said, for their presevation, grading, and restoration checks. The idea of paying thousands more than guide for a 9.6 copy is a different issue, and isn't necessarily associated with CGC. That is called ultra high grade speculating, which uses CGC's grades to establish value.

[joe_collector]

As you can see. Graded cards have bottomed out after the initial peak.

 

I don't know what the purpose of those auction listings was, but you're obviously out of touch if you think new cards from Big Albert and Payton are indicative of the business as a whole.

 

Or that's assuming you realize there are different comics other than Hulk 181 and ASM 129.

 

Pujols is THE name in sportscards, and posting that auction either shows that you don't have a clue, or are just being a dork. Either way, if you need some "education" in graded sportscards, and are prepared to eat some crow, let me know.

 

I'll post some numbers that will have even the most brain-dead speculator running for the exits.

[joe_collector]

But I'm starting to see the value of CGC. But like I said, for their presevation, grading, and restoration checks. The idea of paying thousands more than guide for a 9.6 copy is a different issue, and isn't necessarily associated with CGC. That is called ultra high grade speculating, which uses CGC's grades to establish value.

 

We pretty well agree. I buy CGC 9.4 Byrne X-Men, essentially for fun, and the reason being that I can get a professionally graded NM comic for Guide or less. That's a pretty fair deal in my opinion, and is far better than laying down $25-$50 a pop for mystery EBay grading.

 

But once we get into wild multiples, that's where speculation takes off, and where the greatest risk of fallout exists. It's also important to compare apples to apples, and look at coins and cards that were RED HOT during the intial speculator phase, and then see where they are today.

 

Heck, Pujols was probably in training pants when PSA started up, and is a ludicrous example of long-term values.

[Rip]

6.0-7.0

[DiceX]

I don't know what the purpose of those auction listings was, but you're obviously out of touch if you think new cards from Big Albert and Payton are indicative of the business as a whole.

 

Or that's assuming you realize there are different comics other than Hulk 181 and ASM 129.

 

Pujols is THE name in sportscards, and posting that auction either shows that you don't have a clue, or are just being a dork. Either way, if you need some "education" in graded sportscards, and are prepared to eat some crow, let me know.

 

I'll post some numbers that will have even the most brain-dead speculator running for the exits.

 

There are several major differences between comics and sportscards.

So for you to compare them is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

"Book Price" in high grade sportscards has always been a fictional HIGH except for a select few of the hottest cards of the week. Even then they *finally* sell for "High Book".

"Book Price" in high grade comics has always been a fictional LOW as multiples have always been achieved for pristine books.

 

If a player is injured, his cards bottom out and are an instant loss in money.

Sure comic characters go hot and cold, but at some point in the future they will probably be hot again. It may be 10-15 years later, but it will probably happen.

 

I'll give you this...

When graded sportscards first hit, you could have a common of "Joe Nobody" graded and it would sell for good money. That's the major change that's been seen because these cards are no longer wanted.

"Common" issues of comics are less likely to see the crash because there are collectors that will still want these books. Unlike a player that nobody has ever heard of.

 

Sure, multiples paid for high grade sportscards has dropped dramatically. But they were never worth what the "Book Price" said they were to begin with.

I have no doubt that prices will fall on High Census 9.6's when the 9.8's start getting graded, but the price correction will be nothing like sportscards.

[joe_collector]

So for you to compare them is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

Not really, as the SAME PEOPLE who drove the speculative graded Coin and Sportscard markets into the stratosphere are the same people doing it with comics.

 

The only difference is in point of view, and if you're a comic collector, then you obviously see differences that are simply not there. When you get down to it, both are totally useless paper-based products encased in plastic, originally designed for a kid market, and now bought by rabid adult collectors, newbie speculators and nostalgia buffs.

 

I know many people who got all caught up in the graded sportscard market, and literally woke up one morning and thought "I paid thousands for a piece of cardboard?". All that's different in comics is that it'll be "I paid thousands for a few pieces of old newsprint?".