Clean and Press Bother Anyone?

[Ze-man]

Well said Redhook.

This problem will not go away that is for sure.

And perhaps not ever be addressed by CGC officially.

 

But that does not mean we should not all try our best to watch this growing problem, see how it evolves and affects our hobby or business.

 

And perhaps someday create our own solution to track the clean/press resubs, if only for our purposes on this board only.

 

Then at least we have won a small battle in the big war against greedy sellers.

 

 

Zeman

[fantastic_four]

Hypocrisy is slamming dealers who routinely restores books and sells them on eBay but is willing to look the other way and go with the flow if another type of restoration (and that is what it is.....improving a book from it's original condition) isn't necessarily detectable despite the evidence showing the improvement.

 

Who's arguing against disclosure?

 

 

They can change their procedures to catch these resubmits. That how they START to combat the problem.

 

And what percentage of books can they catch? 0.5%? 1%? 2%? Pedigrees don't make up a significant part of the population...not gonna make much of a difference to the vast majority of us.

 

 

No I'll let the experts at CGC who need to deal and find a solution to this problem address it. I pay them for a service and expect them, at a minimum, to start addressing the issue constructively versus the hands in the air "we're not sure we can detect it" mantra they've used in the past. An excuse that apparently you're happy with.....

 

Yes, I'm happy with it. And I'm also happy with the fact that human beings eventually die and that there's nothing anybody can do about it. Yea...happy. Great characterization.

[Rip]

I pressed it.

[Timely]

Here is a proposed revised label.....which doesn't get into right or wrong, but alerts the consumer that the book is a resubmission and also lets folks know the original certification number of the label now taken out of circulation. BTW all numbers and data on this label are real.

 

The asterisk is in place because unless the scan you are looking at is high resolution, you'll never be able to read the text on the label. This alerts you to it in a fairly unobtrusive manner. CGC makes no judgement on the book, doesn't get into whether it's pressed, cleaned, scented, used as a cutting board......it simply states that in their opinion it's still a blue label special. It would be up to the consumer (if they even cared) to seek out further info on the original submission.

 

 

Another problem with this idea is that I just sent in a few books I felt were undergraded. One of them did get an upgrade from 9.2 to 9.4 on it's own merits, without the aid of cleaning or pressing. This resubmission label would hurt my book, a book that had nothing done to it.

 

Timely

[garthgantu]

Really, what is the real downside to making that info public? I am not asking for names and addresses. Just give me the dang number and the grade. That excuse, with all due respect to the team at CGC, sounds lame, and reminds me of the reasons Hammer gives for running private auctions. What is the problem here?

 

Just substitute "potential press-and-resubmitters" for "collectors" into their reasoning and it finally starts to make sense.

 

What if the real reason is that the census #s for pedigrees would in some way reveal the # of resubs that have occured, when board members started cross-referencing the census data with known quantities of a given book in a given pedigree...? "Hey, the census says there are FIVE copies of DD #12 from the Green River collection, but all the historical accounts and lists indicate there were only TWO ?"

[LordRahl]

Red I asked this before but don't know if you saw it. How do you know that the 2 DDs that were resub'd from 9.4 to 9.6 had anything done to them to achieve the higher grade? Perhaps they were normal resubs that graded higher. This happens all the time, especially if they were strong 9.4s to begin with.

[Red Hook]

Hi Lord......I don't know. Never said I was positive. As far as the first book goes (#11) that was the opinion of sckao, who owned the book raw, and who also owned it as a 9.4.

 

And Timely, you make an excellent point. That's why all this needs further discussion. There is no simple solution. Maybe there is no totally satisfactory or practical solution. But what your situation does illustrate is the "buy the book, not the grade" maxim. There is a big potential payoff difference between a 9.4 and a 9.6.

 

Just a question though Timely.....would you bother to send a book in for resubbing if you didn't have plans to sell it? Or is it just that you want to see the book attain it's (in your opinion) proper grade. Say you have a book you feel has been undergraded. Are you not satisfied with just knowing that, or do you feel compelled to attempt to get it regraded up to its proper number? Or do you want to just keep your options open in case you want to sell it....by having it get it's max grade? Just asking to get some insight on this.

 

[Timely]

I do not regrade items. The one I sent in was actually for note removal and I asked CGC to take a second look at it's grade. They felt 9.2 was too harsh, as did I.

 

Timely

[caltenator-migration]

Red,

 

It seems like you have so sort of fatal attraction issue with the Green River Daredevil #11, as almost every one of your posts talks about it. I buy bronze age books and I have had a difficult time finding sellers who I can trust on ebay. Your constant impicating of Jason Ewert is tiring, as the guy is one of the few dealers I have been able to find who I can say it has been abosolute pleasure to deal with. The guy has over 1100 feedbacks with no neutrals or negatives, and every person I have ever talked to speaks of this guy in the absolute highest positive terms. He gets books that no one else does. He always sells unrestored blue label slabs, as to present a product with the least chance of restoration as possible (due to CGC restoration check). Have you ever dealt with the guy? Have you ever emailed the guy to ask him what happened to the book? Maybe it got pulled for a reason. Maybe he still has the book and would be willing to sell it to you. Maybe he saw an undergraded book that he decided to roll the dice on to obtain a higher grade and won out. Does this make him greedy? No - it makes him smart. And to further state that if the Green River Daredevil #11 was resubmitted to receive a higher grade, that EVERY book Ewert sells MUST have been cleaned and/or pressed is absolutely ludicrous. What, do you think he pays $150.00 a pop to Susan or Nelson to send every Silver Age and Bronze age book off to get it pressed professionally? It doesn't sound like the guy would be in business very long, as he would lose money on nearly every post-1965 book he sells. Let me ask you - If you had a 9.4 book in your collection that a high level dealer inspected and told you point blank the book was undergraded and that you should resubmit to receive a higher grade, are you telling me you would refuse to do so? - that you would just let it sit there because resubmitting a book is a no-no? Heck no - you would resubmit it to receive the book's new, proper, higher grade to cash in too! Does this make you greedy? No. It makes you smart. If you have a problem with CGC allowing proper pressing on blue label books, then why even buy a blue label book ever again? You know this is the CGC's policy and has been ALL ALONG. By purchasing a blue label book, you are acknowledging that the book may have been pressed at one time and that you are ok with it. If not, then don't even attempt to purchase a blue label book because EVERY blue label book could have been professionally pressed! Stick with raw books only.

[joe_collector]

Do you really want to open this particular can of worms? If so, keep talking.

[Rip]

Wheres that dead horse simely graphic when you need it......

[jbud73]

Jason

[blowout]

By purchasing a blue label book, you are acknowledging that the book may have been pressed at one time and that you are ok with it. If not, then don't even attempt to purchase a blue label book because EVERY blue label book could have been professionally pressed!

 

Are you serious? Where does it say that on the CGC slab? I am sure if this statement was printed at the top of every blue label CGC auction on eBay sales would drop off rather alarmingly.

The majority (if not all) people who buy supposedly unrestored books ARE NOT OK WITH THIS.

[drice6900]

[joe_collector]

Are you serious? Where does it say that on the CGC slab? I am sure if this statement was printed at the top of every blue label CGC auction on eBay sales would drop off rather alarmingly.

 

It's funny, but since we started gabbing about all this "clean and press" junk a few threads agao, my Snipe auction list has become predominantly Raw Comic listings.

[comicwiz]

It's funny, but since we started gabbing about all this "clean and press" junk a few threads agao, my Snipe auction list has become predominantly Raw Comic listings.

 

No guarantees that its tentacles of deceit won't effect that market as well, and although the appeal to eke out a .2 or .4 grade on a slab are monetarily more rewarding, in my opinion, the raw market might lend itself to a higher degree of bad press/clean jobs.

[joe_collector]

No guarantees that its tentacles of deceit won't effect that market as well, and although the appeal to eke out a .2 or .4 grade on a slab are monetarily more rewarding, in my opinion, the raw market might lend itself to a higher degree of bad press/clean jobs.

 

Sure, but the risk of getting rooked bigtime is much lower.

 

P.S. I'm referring to tossing a few bucks around to nab some raw books to fill runs, etc., not like those specs foolishly looking for NM EBay copies to slab and flip.

 

Here's a good example:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229158520

[drbanner]

It's funny, but since we started gabbing about all this "clean and press" junk a few threads agao, my Snipe auction list has become predominantly Raw Comic listings.

 

 

REUTERS NEWSWIRE...900...AM...EST...THU...MAR 11 2004...BREAKING NEWS...JOE_COLLECTOR NO LONGER BUYING SLABBED COMICS...COMICINVESTOR MISSING AND UNACCOUNTED FOR...CGC MARKET FUTURES PLUMMET...SPECULATION THAT TGC OF 2004 HAS ARRIVED AS PREDICTED BY FLYINGNOSTORODONUT...CAA IMPLEMENTS CODE RED ACTION PLAN...STEVE BOROCK FLOWN OUT OF MACDILL AFB TO UNKNOWN LOCATION...DETAILS TO FOLLOW...END.

 

[goldust40]

Quite definitely a

[Ze-man]